Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Your opinion is wrong and yet you cling to it to like a drowning man clings to a bit of furniture in freezing water.My "opinion" is fact. Read the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 I get what you are saying, I honestly do. No one is denying that Robb played a part in his own demise. The argument is over how big of a part he actually played.In my opinion, the Red wedding and the destruction of the independent kingdom in the north are all Robb's doing, I've clearly stated that in what I wrote above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Roose couldn't have done anything, nor could Lannister, unless Robb marries this bitch. Simple. It's the reason Robb agreed to marry a Frey in the first place, so compete against the other houses. How is this so baffling?You have a fun style. This is sort of like arguing that WWI was started by an assassination. You're astute logic and reasoning baffle no one. No one is disagreeing Robb didn't fuck up. You seem to be missing the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 You're actually just being a child. Go read the book without the blindfold. Roose didn't wake up on the morning of the Red Wedding and decide to switch sides; he was planning this with Tywin for a long time, so was Walder Frey. Reread Tywin and Tyrions conversation about quills winning wars. You've missed a hell of a lot and your condescension is laughable as a consequence.Why was robb losing the war? Please just look at what happened, he married the Westerling and lost a third of his army. Why did the red wedding occur? Because he wanted that third back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 In my opinion, the Red wedding and the destruction of the independent kingdom in the north are all Robb's doing, I've clearly stated that in what I wrote above.Then we will have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Then we will have to agree to disagree.Thank you for being civil, I'm sorry this had to devolve into an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 [MOD]1. The use of the term 'retarded' is not acceptable on this forum.2. Personal attacks are unacceptable on this forum.3. Posts have been deleted and a member has been suspended.[/MOD] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Why was robb losing the war? Please just look at what happened, he married the Westerling and lost a third of his army. Why did the red wedding occur? Because he wanted that third back.The Freys had nothing to do with his losing the war. He was losing it while they were still with him. He was losing it while the Karstarks were with him. The Red Wedding would have happened anyway because the Freys and Boltons were planning to defect BEFORE the Westerling marriage. Again, reread the conversation Tyrion and Tywin have in which Tywin talks about winning wars with letters, not swords. Walder Frey could have just as easily done the exact same thing to Robb as he is doing to Edmure right now. In fact, Walder would have preferred it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 No worries. Arguing is why we post on this forum haha. Being civil is the only thing we can attempt to do, its hard haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 He screwed up pretty much everything except the battles. Pointing this out is not hate, it's simply the truth.More importantly, marrying Jeyne was an amazingly selfish decision. "I'd rather have the hot girl instead of the 4000 soldiers me and my subjects who are getting slaughtered by the thousands desperately need. ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 The Freys had nothing to do with his losing the war. He was losing it while they were still with him. He was losing it while the Karstarks were with him. The Red Wedding would have happened anyway because the Freys and Boltons were planning to defect BEFORE the Westerling marriage. Again, reread the conversation Tyrion and Tywin have in which Tywin talks about winning wars with letters, not swords. Walder Frey could have just as easily done the exact same thing to Robb as he is doing to Edmure right now. In fact, Walder would have preferred it that way.The emboldened sentence, I've already addressed in an earlier post.You're a general, you have 10 000-12 000 men that can be mustered in your entire vicinity, to lose is certain death. You win every battle you're involved in but your subordinates lose one crippling battle for a objective that you never ordered to be taken. You previously lost 4 000 men to a marriage dispute but have an opportunity to win them back through another marriage. Once Robb stark had an extra 4 000 men to defend the Riverlands he could've retaken the north and then returned south with more levies. The Riverlands were in more then capable hands in those of the Blackfish. It all falls apart when you and your entire army are massacred at a wedding. If Robb never lost the support of the Freys he could have repayed the Lannisters for his loss at Duskendale and then he could have successfully marched on the north without him, his court and his army dying at a wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 If Robb never lost the support of the Freys he could have repayed the Lannisters for his loss at Duskendale and then he could have successfully marched on the north without him, his court and his army dying at a wedding.That's assuming marrying a Frey would prevent them from defecting anyway, which I obviously doubt and with good reason. Quite simply, the story does not support the notion that the Westerling marriage was the driving force behind the Red Wedding. It was already in the works before that marriage a la Tywin and Roose collaborating as soon as Winterfell was taken by the Ironborn. It's just a justification for Walder. He could have slaughtered Robbs men at a Stark-Frey wedding just as easily and given his House control of the North. I'm 100% certain of this, and that it was GRRM's intention for this conclusion to be drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Berg Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Genuinely asking, seems like a bunch of people really don't like him.Guess I was sort of annoyed he didn't honour his oath to marry a Frey girl, but he was 16, injured, and depressed (thought his bros were dead) so I didn't judge him too harshly for that.Other than that I think he did as good as a 16 year old kid in his position could do.IMHO Robb was tricked into it when he dishonoured that girl of his and was "forced" - so to speak - to marry her. She may have not been conscious of it, but her parents were entirely Lannister's sympathizers. I like him, but I think he has inherited too much from his mother when it comes at choices to be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Robb doesn't get much hate at all. Criticisms usually run along the lines of "I love Robb but he was a real twit for letting Theon go and marrying Jeyne W.". Sometimes folks will point out that he really should have confided in Edmure. Now and then someone will mention that declaring himself king may not have been the best idea. This is not hating on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 That's assuming marrying a Frey would prevent them from defecting anyway, which I obviously doubt and with good reason. Quite simply, the story does not support the notion that the Westerling marriage was the driving force behind the Red Wedding. It was already in the works before that marriage a la Tywin and Roose collaborating as soon as Winterfell was taken by the Ironborn. It's just a justification for Walder. He could have slaughtered Robbs men at a Stark-Frey wedding just as easily and given his House control of the North. I'm 100% certain of this, and that it was GRRM's intention for this conclusion to be drawn. The Freys would've defected most likely, but the Red Wedding was a personal matter for Lord Walder because he was really angry at Robb, I really doubt it would've happened if Robb had kept his word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Berg Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Two words:Love potion.ahah, one term:Viagra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 That's assuming marrying a Frey would prevent them from defecting anyway, which I obviously doubt and with good reason. Quite simply, the story does not support the notion that the Westerling marriage was the driving force behind the Red Wedding. It was already in the works before that marriage a la Tywin and Roose collaborating as soon as Winterfell was taken by the Ironborn. It's just a justification for Walder. He could have slaughtered Robbs men at a Stark-Frey wedding just as easily and given his House control of the North. I'm 100% certain of this, and that it was GRRM's intention for this conclusion to be drawn.I apologize in advance for any offence taken, but I simply don't understand why you think that the Frey-Robb wedding would've been on a ground of Walder's choosing. The only reason Edmure's shindig occurred at the Twins was because it was a concession made by Robb to appease the Freys. If the great Westerling seduction/rape thing didn't happen the wedding would have taken place at a castle of Robb's choosing, perhaps Winterfell, after Robb had retaken the north.I am StanFan, so in my eyes no harm done. Just another pretender. It's a shame really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 The Freys would've defected most likely, but the Red Wedding was a personal matter for Lord Walder because he was really angry at Robb, I really doubt it would've happened if Robb had kept his word.Walder made it personal yep, but really killing Robbs men and capturing him in the same way he did Edmure would have been the only way to ensure he gained control of the North and ending the war in one move. Otherwise he risks Robb escaping or dying before giving him the heir he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 I apologize in advance for any offence taken, but I simply don't understand why you think that the Frey-Robb wedding would've been on a ground of Walder's choosing. Because everything else was. Why would this be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Because everything else was. Why would this be any different?Because Robb was a King I really do believe he would have made that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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