The Food Code of Ice and Fire

[maidenandwarrior]

Dany is offered pear brandy by her would be wine-selling assassin.

Jaime eats a pear when he decides to distance himself from Gregor's thugs (with Bonnifer Hasty).

Dany commands Daario to eat a pear when he hasn't eaten for 2 days and declares feasting on her beauty is enough to sustain him.

With the Sansa and Viserion scenes, that's it for pears.

This is great, thank you. I will reread all theses scenes. Funnily enough, I just reread the Dany scene with the winesellar not that long ago and I don't remember that at all.

[Florina Laufeyson]

This has probably mentioned before (Not specifically in this thread, but I tend to stay away from foreshadowing threads in general):

The oranges that keep falling in Areos first chapter in Feast. I think this is something that symbolizes death, of maybe grief.

The first orange fell and prince Doran hasnt shown any reaction to it.

Then the second orange fell, the same thing happens.

Then the third orange falls. It it fell close to Doran, and its said as that its as if Prince Doran felt pain from it, and then he asks to be taken away from the Water Gardens (As if he couldnt take the pain) and leaves.

I think the first orange was Elias death, the second Oberyns, and he third is Quentyn, remember how that third orange fell the closest to the prince, and Quentyn was the closest to Doran of the three. He was his son after all, and the pain will be too much for him.

Im not sure how often oranges are mentioned so this could be way off.

Mladen 26-16

I like this. I do think blood oranges symbolize family in a way. Arya throws one at Sansa in order to shit disturb. Doran sees the blood oranges as things of comfort but gets upset when they are rotted or smushed.

[yolkboy]

This is great, thank you. I will reread all theses scenes. Funnily enough, I just reread the Dany scene with the winesellar not that long ago and I don't remember that at all.

It's in a list of about ten liquors, that's probably why.

“I have sweet reds, from Lys and Volantis and the Arbor. Whites from Lys, Tyroshi pear brandy, firewine, pepperwine, the pale green nectars of Myr. Smokeberry browns and Andalish sours, I have them, I have them.”

[Booknerd2]

I'm still stunned at the symbolism and content always to be found within this series.

Some food for thought:

I gleaned really quickly earlier on the threads today, and there were posts that were great regarding Sandor and Sansa and the frequent description of him drinking sour red wine. Also, in regard to Littlefinger and mint. And it is spot on. We think of toothpaste, gum, people using things such as mint to cover a foul odor. Or a sweetalker who is covering for his bullshit, in regard to him. Its here, but I read so much today...so I am pissed I don't know who to give the credit too, but I will find it and change my post later.

When there is trouble in KL or the plight of the disgruntled poor, there is always a rotten, foul fish involved.

Always the spicy Dornish peppers...

Cheese is mentioned a lot. Different varieties though.

The only other pattern I noticed is that there are quite a few mentions of foods, really, meats stuffed with a combination of leeks, oysters, mushrooms, and a cream sauce at times. I believe usually when Tyrion is mentioned. I seriously always took it as: rich foods, a rich Lannister. Tyrion does like his comforts.

But somebody would really have to check all five books. This thread just hit me, so I am just remembering the things that ocurred to me that I saw constantly reappearing, that I can remember from reading the series off the top of my head.

Now, for a five minute search, I only picked leeks just to pick one for the hell of it. Leeks are symbolic of Wales, there is a culitvar called "King Richard" and they were Emperor Nero's favorite, for example.

The possibilities are numerous now.

[maidenandwarrior]

I like this. I do think blood oranges symbolize family in a way. Arya throws one at Sansa in order to shit disturb. Doran sees the blood oranges as things of comfort but gets upset when they are rotted or smushed.

Yes, blood oranges standing for family makes a lot of sense. I really like this idea.

It's in a list of about ten liquors, that's probably why.

Gotcha. Nice catch.

[Katkara]

There might be some meaning behind leeks, since Theon says in one chapter: "Reek, Reek, it rhymes with leek."

Could someone explain to me what exactly a persimmon is? English is my second language, so I looked the word up, but strangely it translates to two different fruits...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I like this. I do think blood oranges symbolize family in a way. Arya throws one at Sansa in order to shit disturb. Doran sees the blood oranges as things of comfort but gets upset when they are rotted or smushed.

I think this is interesting. Taking the Doran thing a little further, it's been noted that plots have to ripen like fruit, and Doran is surrounded by overripe fruit, suggesting that his plots have been left hanging too long. Overripe blood oranges can symbolize plots that have gone on too long involving his own family members.

[Booknerd2]

There might be some meaning behind leeks, since Theon says in one chapter: "Reek, Reek, it rhymes with leek."

If I remember correctly, there is always this stuffing that shows up alot in COK. Usually when Tyrion is eating in KL and I believe Cersei served it at various scenes where foods being served is described. Possibly at Sansa's wedding and Joffrey's. Again, just off the top of my head.

And that was great. I totally forget about the Reek rhymes.

[Ragnorak]

I'm not seeing much of a pattern but here are the mentions.

Beets served at the harvest festival at winterfell. Bran send beets to Lil Walder.

Beets at Red Wedding.

Cersei and Kevan eat beets after Tywin dies and Cersei is asking Kevan to be hand after Jame refused.

Beets part of the meal with Balman and Falyse (when Cersei thinks how much she's come to love boar).

Sweet beets grown in Volantis and part of a popular dish.

And beets at the wall.

I'm not seeing a pattern with these, but it's not necessary that all food becomes part of the code. Too much work, I say.

First, excellent job on the thread.

While beets do tend to coincide with being marked for death in some cases the distance between beets and death gives me pause. Little Walder gets beets in Clash but dies in Dance. Of course it could be Bran's "death" too, but even the Cersei and Kevan beet dish is a bit removed from Keven's demise.

I have not reread the beet passages to see if there's anything specific that could prove enlightening but I'm wondering if it is about the fall of a House or the loss of power (getting beaten if you can excuse the awful pun.) Bran's beets are right before Theon takes Winterfell. (Little Walder also used to win the Lord of the Crossing game which may or may not matter.) I think the Balman and Falyse meal was wear Cersei tried to have Bran killed and they lost their castle to him. The Red Wedding is also the fall or loss of power for House Stark and Kevan turning down being Cersei's Hand is strongly related to her fall from power over the Margaery plot. Unlike the boar that seems to herald a regime change, beets seem like they herald a loss of power but not the elimination we see with the boar. It may also be that beets symbolize a temporary loss of power but we'd need another book before making that call with any degree of certainty. Even Tommen's beets are about him being forced to acquiesce his power to Cersei both literally in that he yields to eating the beets and more figuratively in the overall monarchy.

Not married to the idea yet and the marked for death idea was a well woven thread connecting the beets so a hat tip to maindenandwarrior for putting it together even though I proposed a different take.

I really liked the peach conclusions. Did you notice any distinction or nuance with winter peaches? Maybe a naivete that will be outgrown as opposed to one that will lead to a premature death?

Again, great work!

[yolkboy]

I just looked at blackberries. I couldn't really find a symbolic connection, but i'll post all the blackberry mentions below in case I missed something.

My only thought on blackberries is that, as a food, they are an equalizer. We see them being foraged, and we see them being eaten in 'high class' places like the Red Keep before Sansa's wedding, and at Illyrio's pad.

Robin and the Eyrie...

A wooden platform had been built to elevate Robert’s chair; there the Lord of the Eyrie sat, giggling and clapping his hands as a humpbacked puppeteer in blue-and-white motley made two wooden knights hack and slash at each other. Pitchers of thick cream and baskets of blackberries had been set out, and the guests were sipping a sweet orange-scented wine from engraved silver cups. A fool’s festival, Brynden had called it, and small wonder.

Across the terrace, Lysa laughed gaily at some jest of Lord Hunter’s, and nibbled a blackberry from the point of Ser Lyn Corbray’s dagger. They were the suitors who stood highest in Lysa’s favor... today, at least

Arya with Yoren...

The younger boys would be set to picking blackberries along the road, or climbing fences to fill a sack with apples if they happened upon an orchard.

Arya was a skilled climber and a fast picker, and she liked to go off by herself. One day she came across a rabbit, purely by happenstance.

Weasel wasn’t either, but Hot Pie retched up the beetle he tried to swallow, and Lommy and Gendry wouldn’t even try. Yesterday Gendry had caught a frog and shared it with Lommy, and, a few days before, Hot Pie had found blackberries and stripped the bush bare, but mostly they had been living on water and acorns.

Bran warging...

The sound was the faintest of clinks, a scraping of steel over stone. He lifted his head from his paws, listening, sniffing at the night. The evening’s rain had woken a hundred sleeping smells and made them ripe and strong again. Grass and thorns, blackberries broken on the ground, mud, worms, rotting leaves, a rat creeping through the bush. He caught the shaggy black scent of his brother’s coat and the sharp coppery tang of blood from the squirrel he’d killed.

Brienne with Jaime...

Brienne woke him with a boot in the ribs. The world was still black, and it had begun to rain. They broke their fast on oatcakes, salt fish, and some blackberries that Ser Cleos had found, and were back in the saddle before the sun came up

Bran travelling to the Wall...

When they woke the next morning, the fire had gone out and the Liddle was gone, but he’d left a sausage for them, and a dozen oatcakes folded up neatly in a green and white cloth. Some of the cakes had pinenuts baked in them and some had blackberries

Sansa on the morning of her wedding...

Sansa was tempted to beg off. I could tell him that my tummy was upset, or that my moon’s blood had come. She wanted nothing more than to crawl back in bed and pull the drapes. I must be brave, like Robb, she told herself, as she took her lord husband stiffly by the arm.

In the Queen’s Ballroom they broke their fast on honeycakes baked with blackberries and nuts

Jaime hanging out with Illyn...

Riding at the front of the host with Ser Ilyn silent by his side, Jaime felt almost content. The sun was warm on his back and the wind riffled through his hair like a woman’s fingers. When Little Lew Piper came galloping up with a helm full of blackberries, Jaime ate a handful and told the boy to share the rest with his fellow squires and Ser Ilyn Payne.

Tyrion refusing blackberries with Illyrio...

Even so, he had no appetite, and when Illyrio offered him a bowl of blackberries in cream he waved it off. “I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.”

[maidenandwarrior]

What about goat? Could this maybe represent change or loss?

Jaime loses his hand to the Goat.

Wylis Manderly was fed parts of the Goat, and then leaves Harrenhal. His father might soon die.

On Dany's wedding day, Missandei insists that she eat, among other things, goat cheese. The wedding is change, and it causes her to lose control of her city.

When Dany doesn't want to eat horseflesh in Vaes Dothrak, Irri brings back goat from the market, foreshadowing the loss of Viserys and the baby?

Tyrion eats goat with Bronn just before talking about Tysha, the wife he lost, for the first time.

[Pearlthegirl]

Great, now I'm hungry.

[Booknerd2]

What about goat? Could this maybe represent change or loss?

Jaime loses his hand to the Goat.

Wylis Manderly was fed parts of the Goat, and then leaves Harrenhal. His father might soon die.

On Dany's wedding day, Missandei insists that she eat, among other things, goat cheese. The wedding is change, and it causes her to lose control of her city.

When Dany doesn't want to eat horseflesh in Vaes Dothrak, Irri brings back goat from the market, foreshadowing the loss of Viserys and the baby?

Tyrion eats goat with Bronn just before talking about Tysha, the wife he lost, for the first time.

And always there is that running bit regarding Tyrion and Shagga and goats.

[Ragnorak]

I like this. I do think blood oranges symbolize family in a way. Arya throws one at Sansa in order to shit disturb. Doran sees the blood oranges as things of comfort but gets upset when they are rotted or smushed.

The Kindly Man sweetens his breath with oranges and Septon Meribold gives out oranges on his journey through the Riverlands. I'm thinking oranges may symbolize something and the blood in the blood oranges make that symbol family but I have to ponder it more.

[Pearlthegirl]

I don't think Lem Lemoncloak fits in with the innocence of lemons himself, but he remembers his youth and wanted the duck they caught cooked with lemons. I think an old girlfriend made it for him before....before the war. He didn't get it.

[Katkara]

The Old Bear always drinks his beer with lemon juice. No idea what it might mean, though...innocence doesn't quite fit here.

[brashcandy]

I'm still stunned at the symbolism and content always to be found within this series.

Some food for thought:

I gleaned really quickly earlier on the threads today, and there were posts that were great regarding Sandor and Sansa and the frequent description of him drinking sour red wine. Also, in regard to Littlefinger and mint. And it is spot on. We think of toothpaste, gum, people using things such as mint to cover a foul odor. Or a sweetalker who is covering for his bullshit, in regard to him. Its here, but I read so much today...so I am pissed I don't know who to give the credit too, but I will find it and change my post later.

I think you're talking about this post in the PTP thread:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/88073-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xx/page__st__300#entry4815583

[A Man Has Said]

The Old Bear always drinks his beer with lemon juice. No idea what it might mean, though...innocence doesn't quite fit here.

I think sometimes you have to look at the foods from a different perspective; The Night's Watch might have a tradition of putting lemon juice in things for the same reason that the British Navy took limes (and sauerkraut) on long voyages - to prevent scurvy. And we know for a fact that they liked to sneak prunes into the Black Brothers' food to keep them regular.

"Never trust a cook, my lord. They'll prune you when you least expect it."

~ Dolorous Edd Tollett

[Booknerd2]

I think you're talking about this post in the PTP thread:

http://asoiaf.wester...00#entry4815583

Thanks!

Yup. There it is. I skipped around so much today I couldn't take it all in.

Milady of York. Braschcandy. Co-written, I believe? Just brilliant work.

Some more references to food and drink.

[Fire Eater]

Nice thread, Apple.

I think peaches serves dual purposes: a symbol of death and a summer fruit. The peach is for summer children who got to their deaths like Achilles.

Blackberries

There is a legend that the blackberry bush was once beautiful, but was cursed by Lucifer when he fell from heaven into the bush. Illyrio and Tyrion have blackberry wine and then blackberries and cream. Lysa also ate blackberries and cream at Tyrion's trial by combat at the Eyrie.

Varys and the Blackfyres can be Lucifer, given the inference from the Arya chapter, with Illyrio being the blackberry bush, as he was once handsome until after he met Varys and grew rich, he lost his beauty as he overindulged in food and pleasures from his wealth.

Cat notes that Lysa lost much of her beauty, and LF plays the devil in Sansa's POV with his temptations. Lysa nursed and then bedded Petyr after he was wounded badly in his duel with Brandon. The bedding led to her pregnancy which her father had terminated, marking the start of Lysa's decline.