The Food Code of Ice and Fire

[Lala]

Amazing thread~

And obviously lemons for innocence - Sansa's lemoncakes, Dany's lemon tree, and one of the minor characters mentions lemon-stewed rabbit (or something) nostalgically as part of his "good old days"

[Harlaw's Book]

Stannis' line about going to his grave thinking of his brother's peach just became so much sadder for me.

Any thoughts on onions? I've contemplated that they symbolize life. (It's the food credited for saving the inhabitants of Storm's End. Onion soup is given to the free folk after Stannis lets them through the Wall). But I'm not married to the idea, so I'm looking for other interpretations.

[Roadside Rose]

Renly's peach has been explained by GRRM himself in an SSM thread,

Q.In the second book Renly gives Stannis a peach. What did you want to tell us with that?

GRRM: The peach represents... Well... It’s pleasure. It’s… tasting the juices of life. Stannis is a very marshal men concerned with his duty and with that peach Renly says: “Smell the roses”, because Stannis is always concerned with his duty and honor, in what he should be doing and he never really stops to taste the fruit. Renly wants him to taste the fruit but it’s lost. I wish that scene had been included in the TV series because for me that peach was important, but it wasn’t possible.

[Winterfellian]

Stannis' line about going to his grave thinking of his brother's peach just became so much sadder for me.

Any thoughts on onions? I've contemplated that they symbolize life. (It's the food credited for saving the inhabitants of Storm's End. Onion soup is given to the free folk after Stannis lets them through the Wall). But I'm not married to the idea, so I'm looking for other interpretations.

I think that more than life they represent men, and their layers stand for the duality of the human nature. Davos, a man highly associated with the onion describes himself as both good and bad, a grey man. Melissandre uses them to exemplified her black and white philosophy concerning men- if a part of the onion is rotten, then the whole onion is rotten.

They can also be found in the tables of the rich and mighty (I have to check, but I think they are present in almost every big feast. They were certainly mentioned at the WF feast at the beginning of AGOT) as well as in the humblest of places (Jon smells the onion in Ygritte's breath when he first met her and ambushed her and her party north of the Wall) as men are found in the most diverse of places, both high and low.

Great thread by the way!

[Mladen]

And no one discussed pies till now? Hmmm...

First, has anyone noticed how pies in ASOIAF are almost always meat pies? And that unlike in our world, the term "wedding cake" has been exchanged with "wedding pie"? On Dany's wedding to Drogo, there are Dothraki blood pies, on Joffrey's is famous pigeon pie, there are no pies on RW, but the pies served by Manderly in Winterfell on Ramsay/Jeyne's wedding are deeply rooted in RW. I believe this exchange of cake with pies also serves as derision of weddings in ASOIAF. The perverse way to show us that weddings in ASOIAf are not about love and happiness.

[Tommen]

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Ides of Marsh

Never seen this phrase before but now I see that it's a thing. I like it :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And no one discussed pies till now? Hmmm...

First, has anyone noticed how pies in ASOIAF are almost always meat pies? And that unlike in our world, the term "wedding cake" has been exchanged with "wedding pie"? On Dany's wedding to Drogo, there are Dothraki blood pies, on Joffrey's is famous pigeon pie, there are no pies on RW, but the pies served by Manderly in Winterfell on Ramsay/Jeyne's wedding are deeply rooted in RW. I believe this exchange of cake with pies also serves as derision of weddings in ASOIAF. The perverse way to show us that weddings in ASOIAf are not about love and happiness.

I'm honestly not too sure about that. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the wedding cake the way we think of it is a fairly modern-ish tradition, going back primarily a couple hundred years. You'd have pastries, like bread-breaking or even sweets, at weddings, but not "a wedding cake" the way we think of it. So I think the lack of "wedding cakes" in this series just points to the medieval-ish nature of it and that there isn't really a social statement there.

[Mladen]

I'm honestly not too sure about that. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the wedding cake the way we think of it is a fairly modern-ish tradition, going back primarily a couple hundred years. You'd have pastries, like bread-breaking or even sweets, at weddings, but not "a wedding cake" the way we think of it. So I think the lack of "wedding cakes" in this series just points to the medieval-ish nature of it and that there isn't really a social statement there.

No, no, you are right. Wedding cake is fairly modern term, not at all medieval. Where I was heading with comparison, is that one of essentials of the wedding - wedding cake with white frosting and happy bride and groom figurines at the top, in ASOIAF gets a different version - meat pie that has nothing with hapiness but quite sinister nature of weddings in ASOIAF.

[Valandui]

Dany is offered pear brandy by her would be wine-selling assassin.

Jaime eats a pear when he decides to distance himself from Gregor's thugs (with Bonnifer Hasty).

Dany commands Daario to eat a pear when he hasn't eaten for 2 days and declares feasting on her beauty is enough to sustain him.

With the Sansa and Viserion scenes, that's it for pears.

The pears could represent a good decision or sound advice. Jamie getting rid of the Mountain's men and Sansa's choice would definitely be good decisions and Daario eating something after two days is definitely sound advice from Dany. I don't think the pear brandy applies because the wine-seller was just listing what he had to Dany.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Pigeons as food are common in this story. Off the top of my head, I can't remember all the instances of pigeon being eaten, but I know Arya catches one in AGOT, just before Ned's death. It might've appeared other times in her chapters. My googling found this symbolism:

The pigeons emblematically characterize a youthful generation. Settling in the cities suckling off the life of the urban society, this bird shows us the witlessness, absurdity, and congenially lost civilization of the young generation.

Does this mean Arya is doomed to be uncivilized? I'm not sure if this is a universally accepted metaphor for pigeons btw.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, no, you are right. Wedding cake is fairly modern term, not at all medieval. Where I was heading with comparison, is that one of essentials of the wedding - wedding cake with white frosting and happy bride and groom figurines at the top, in ASOIAF gets a different version - meat pie that has nothing with hapiness but quite sinister nature of weddings in ASOIAF.

But since we're in a fundamentally medieval society, why would there be a "wedding cake with white frosting and happy bride and groom figurines at the top" at all, whether the marriage was happy or not? That's the point I was making. There wouldn't be such a cake at any medieval wedding, happy or unhappy.

[SeanF]

Lemons seems to signify innocence as per Sansa + lemoncakes (and various characters who are nostalgic for those bakery treats from time to time, like Arya) and Dany's recurring memory of the lemon tree.

Pomegranates seem to be associated with duplicity (I should specify I mean a sort of Faustian bargain), which is pretty similar to the symbolism in our own world (Littlefinger offering the pomegranate to Sansa; Bowen's existence).

In our world, pomegranates symbolise fertility, more than anything else.

[SeanF]

No, no, you are right. Wedding cake is fairly modern term, not at all medieval. Where I was heading with comparison, is that one of essentials of the wedding - wedding cake with white frosting and happy bride and groom figurines at the top, in ASOIAF gets a different version - meat pie that has nothing with hapiness but quite sinister nature of weddings in ASOIAF.

I'm pretty sure that's right. People enjoyed sweetmeats and subtleties, rather than wedding cakes.

However, the meals in ASOIAF are really more modern than they are medieval. Rich people love their vegetables in the series. Vegetables get served separately with meat, or as separate courses. The medieval rich ate plenty of fruit, but vegetables only appeared in potages and garnishes.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I noticed that the only time Dany eats lamb is when she is entertained by the Green Grace (who I believe to be the Harpy). On another occasion, she refuses it.

Several times when reading the book, I wondered if Dany was being compared to a lamb in some way.

Off the top of my head, she makes the deal to be supplied corn by the Lhazareen. So she is literally being fed corn by shepherds.

Then there's the 'floppy ears' talk in Meereen.

She's 'shorn' of her hair twice, in times when she really needs to change.

And her journey in Essos might be likened to that of a lost lamb, wondering around her pen, being gently guided/shepherded by Quaithe. (and no i don't really like this one).

If there is a Dany/lamb connection (and I'm really not sold and would have to look for more clues), eating lamb with the Green Grace might be highly significant.

I don't really like this, but throwing out there anyways.

Your lamb post is very symbolic.

In her last DWD chapter

In Meereen I was a queen in silk, nibbling on stuffed

dates and honeyed lamb, she remembered. What would my noble husband think if he could see me

now? Hizdahr would be horrified, no doubt. But Daario …

Daario would laugh, carve off a hunk of horsemeat with his arakh, and squat down to eat beside

her

Also eating lamb with the green grace I think has a meaning.

[Mladen]

But since we're in a fundamentally medieval society, why would there be a "wedding cake with white frosting and happy bride and groom figurines at the top" at all, whether the marriage was happy or not? That's the point I was making. There wouldn't be such a cake at any medieval wedding, happy or unhappy.

I will continue digging this hole of mine... :). We all know what wedding is supposed to be. Nice ceremony, music, lots of food, and then the cake. It is one of those familiar images we as readers know. So, when it comes to medieval weddings in ASOIAF, everything is there - ceremony, food, music all adapted to fit the time setting. And then there is cake. Or, in ASOIAF universe - pie. Pies become related to weddings in most occasions, and most vivid images of pies are those at weddings, especially the one on PW, and those Manderly served to Boltons. Only, while eating the pie Joffrey starts choking (not from pie, but nevertheless), and Manderly's pies are well-known for their ingridients. So, there is quite macarbe symbolism behind something that is supposed to have very positive imagery. What I want to say, it's not about having the cakes, it's about parallels we as readers make between imagery we are familiar with and the imagery of ASOIAF.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I will continue digging this hole of mine... :). We all know what wedding is supposed to be. Nice ceremony, music, lots of food, and then the cake. It is one of those familiar images we as readers know. So, when it comes to medieval weddings in ASOIAF, everything is there - ceremony, food, music all adapted to fit the time setting. And then there is cake. Or, in ASOIAF universe - pie. Pies become related to weddings in most occasions, and most vivid images of pies are those at weddings, especially the one on PW, and those Manderly served to Boltons. Only, while eating the pie Joffrey starts choking (not from pie, but nevertheless), and Manderly's pies are well-known for their ingridients. So, there is quite macarbe symbolism behind something that is supposed to have very positive imagery. What I want to say, it's not about having the cakes, it's about parallels we as readers make between imagery we are familiar with and the imagery of ASOIAF.

Eh. I'm still not sure I'm getting your meaning. Rather than pin the macabre bits on the pies, surely it'd be the weddings themselves that would be macabre. Like I keep saying, there is no "wedding cake" in this equivalent society. So having pies at a wedding wouldn't be indicative of anything.

[Mladen]

Eh. I'm still not sure I'm getting your meaning. Rather than pin the macabre bits on the pies, surely it'd be the weddings themselves that would be macabre. Like I keep saying, there is no "wedding cake" in this equivalent society. So having pies at a wedding wouldn't be indicative of anything.

True about the weddings. I will have to think more deeply about this, to sort my thoughts a bit and then I'll be able to talk about it more appropriately...

[Greymoon]

The food porn in the series isnt just GRRM waxing off about how lovely the various foods are. Some of it is world building, some of it is Author Appeal, and then you get these sorts of instances where there appears to be a definite pattern with certain foods and the actions that follow. The most glaring example is the peaches and the boar. The Arbor Gold is another one. If pomegranates or persimmons dont mean anything, that doesnt mean boar or Arbor Gold doesnt mean anything.

To be honest I never noticed that there was food porn. I love food, it never bothered me to read about it. Maybe my earlier comment wasn't very clear. I'm not denying that there is some symbolism, I'm just not sure that the symbolism is GRRM's own and that the 'food code' is not just the result of the use of such symbolism to describe scenes. As in, the food code >> consequence of symbolism, and not a conscious choice of the author. It could be that you’re right of course, I just get the feeling that if GRRM had consciously done/created all of the things we give him credit for in the books, he’d really not be a mortal man, but a God.

[Dr. Pepper]

To be honest I never noticed that there was food porn. I love food, it never bothered me to read about it. Maybe my earlier comment wasn't very clear. I'm not denying that there is some symbolism, I'm just not sure that the symbolism is GRRM's own and that the 'food code' is not just the result of the use of such symbolism to describe scenes. As in, the food code >> consequence of symbolism, and not a conscious choice of the author. It could be that you’re right of course, I just get the feeling that if GRRM had consciously done/created all of the things we give him credit for in the books, he’d really not be a mortal man, but a God.

I don't really think it would make GRRM a god if he deliberately used a few food items as symbolism. That would just mean he had to remember about a handful of foods and what he wants to use them for, and in a series with hundreds of characters all with specific looks, sigil, employment, location...I think he can probably manage to recall the handful of foods. It would be a bit unreasonable to hope that every food mentioned in the series has deliberately specific and patterned symbolic value, but no one is even suggesting that.

Some of us hope the food code is deliberate. We find that all of the mentions of boar or peaches or Arbor wine are too specific to be an accidental coincidence. Yet, even if GRRM was not consciously giving much thought to his food code (or whatever symbolic item), it's still there. The author's conscious intention is not really required for readers to discuss patterns within the text.

[butterbumps!]

In our world, pomegranates symbolise fertility, more than anything else.

The pomegranate itself has a fertility-death duality (and it's a winter fruit). I meant the meaning of "offered pomegranates." When someone offers you a pomegranate in myth, it's usually for the best that you don't eat it.