Daenerys in Slaver's bay is to show us that.

[Nictarion]

Bob conquered a kingdom geared constantly for war while Dany beat three rotten and complacent cities.

Bob also had a shitload more soldiers than 8,000. And other characters in the story view Dany as a conqueror (see Tyrion's quote I provided upthread).

[Rod123]

Cleopatra's son Ptolemy XV, known as Ceasarion, was killed so Augustus could have complete control over Egypt. Augustus didn't cross any lines in doing this, since Ptolemy was an adult. Furthermore the deification of Roman emperors had more to do with emphasizing Roman power than claiming that these were morally good people.

From wikipedia

Caesarion, who was said to be Cleopatra's son by Julius Caesar, was sent by his mother, with much treasure, into India, by way of Ethiopia. There Rhodon, another tutor like Theodorus, persuaded him to go back, on the ground that [Octavian] Caesar invited him to take the kingdom.

[4]

Octavian is supposed to have had Caesarion executed in Alexandria, following the advice of Arius Didymus, who said "Too many Caesars is not good" (a pun on a line in Homer).^[5] The exact circumstances of his death have not been documented; it is popularly thought that he was strangled

So inviting an exiled rule with the promise to giving back his kingdom and having him executed is A-OK because he was an adult? and Augustus was deified because he brought and unprecedent scale of prosperity and peace through conquest.

Was the story of Anthony and Cleopatra and Caesarion sad? yes pretty much, but there are thousands of just as sad stories of people who died in the Roman civil war who could care less who was ruling as long as there was peace.

Tywin was a fair and just ruler to the population in times of peace, he was not a Bolton or an Aerys, he was ruthless in war, yet he never sought war, he never provoked a single war. He was tasked to clean up after other and he did so very well.

Again if Tywin had been the hand of Robert, he would be alive, Cersei and Jamie would had been separated promptly and he would had forced Cersei to bear Robert trueborn sons.

[Rod123]

Bob also had a shitload more soldiers than 8,000. And other characters in the story view Dany as a conqueror (see Tyrion's quote I provided upthread).

Robert Baratheon was a warrior, not a conqueror and not a ruler Ned and Stannis won him his throne.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Robert Baratheon was a warrior, not a conqueror and not a ruler Ned and Jon Arryn won him his throne.

:)

[Dire-Lion]

From wikipedia

Caesarion, who was said to be Cleopatra's son by Julius Caesar, was sent by his mother, with much treasure, into India, by way of Ethiopia. There Rhodon, another tutor like Theodorus, persuaded him to go back, on the ground that [Octavian] Caesar invited him to take the kingdom.

[4]

Octavian is supposed to have had Caesarion executed in Alexandria, following the advice of Arius Didymus, who said "Too many Caesars is not good" (a pun on a line in Homer).^[5] The exact circumstances of his death have not been documented; it is popularly thought that he was strangled

So inviting an exiled rule with the promise to giving back his kingdom and having him executed is A-OK because he was an adult? and Augustus was deified because he brought and unprecedent scale of prosperity and peace through conquest.

Was the story of Anthony and Cleopatra and Caesarion sad? yes pretty much, but there are thousands of just as sad stories of people who died in the Roman civil war who could care less who was ruling as long as there was peace.

Tywin was a fair and just ruler to the population in times of peace, he was not a Bolton or an Aerys, he was ruthless in war, yet he never sought war, he never provoked a single war. He was tasked to clean up after other and he did so very well.

Again if Tywin had been the hand of Robert, he would be alive, Cersei and Jamie would had been separated promptly and he would had forced Cersei to bear Robert trueborn sons.

Actually yes, in the time period tricking someone and then killing them because they were a threat to your power would have been completely fine in the time period. According to modern values, Octavian could still get away with by arguing that they were at war.

Your claims about Tywin are completely ludicrous. No one who instigates a gang rape can ever be described as "fair and just" (fyi this happened during peacetime). He did start a war when Catelyn abducted Tyrion. Although this act had questionable legality, war and a rape of the riverlands is an overreaction to say the least. Yeah, he cleaned up after his father so well he fucked all of his children up for life.

How does Tywin still being alive or forcing his daughter to be raped by Robert make him a good character? Better question, what does any of this have to do with Dany?

[IRON BANK]

So what does the OP have to do with the title?

So true!

[Rod123]

Actually yes, in the time period tricking someone and then killing them because they were a threat to your power would have been completely fine in the time period. According to modern values, Octavian could still get away with by arguing that they were at war.

Your claims about Tywin are completely ludicrous. No one who instigates a gang rape can ever be described as "fair and just" (fyi this happened during peacetime). He did start a war when Catelyn abducted Tyrion. Although this act had questionable legality, war and a rape of the riverlands is an overreaction to say the least. Yeah, he cleaned up after his father so well he fucked all of his children up for life.

How does Tywin still being alive or forcing his daughter to be raped by Robert make him a good character? Better question, what does any of this have to do with Dany?

What modern values allow you to kill a civilian ruler after you invited him back to take a seat of power? if China said "Hey Dalai Lama, its cool you can have Tibet back, come to Tibet" and then they killed him would that be cool in modern times? He was murdered to avoid a possible war of succession, just like Rhaegar sons. Caesarion was not at war, he had no armies. On the other hand the red wedding did ended a war.

Also i already said that Tywin actions toward Tyrion was not justified, thats his major flaw and he died for it, and his death has only spawned grief and war, when the Wot5K was all but over.

You are also looking at the perspective of a noble, of course your lord was killed, you want revenge, but for average Pate, you dont want war, to risk life, to be hungry and tired and to be maimed so you go home to become a beggar or worse. for what? for a ruler you never met?

[Rod123]

Actually yes, in the time period tricking someone and then killing them because they were a threat to your power would have been completely fine in the time period. According to modern values, Octavian could still get away with by arguing that they were at war.

Your claims about Tywin are completely ludicrous. No one who instigates a gang rape can ever be described as "fair and just" (fyi this happened during peacetime). He did start a war when Catelyn abducted Tyrion. Although this act had questionable legality, war and a rape of the riverlands is an overreaction to say the least. Yeah, he cleaned up after his father so well he fucked all of his children up for life.

How does Tywin still being alive or forcing his daughter to be raped by Robert make him a good character? Better question, what does any of this have to do with Dany?

-Dany is the nicest person in the series when it comes to moral values, and she is also the worst ruler of the series.

-Tywin is a cruel person, yet he is the best ruler in the series.

Also you talk as if the other armies didnt raped and murdered and pillaged in the Riverlands

The harrying of the Riverlands didnt started a war, it didnt made the north come in force, no banners were called, the mountain was a bait to get Eddard to exchange for Tyrion, Not revenge, his goal was to get his son back.

[para]

Pax Romana - Solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant. - They've created a desert and called it peace. / Tacitus, Agricola, 98 AD

We can judge ASOIAF with modern morality because... personally I am not interested in reading something that ultimately argues that in a special set of circumstances, slavery, genocide, murder, rape is a-okay. Tywin is a horrible person because he commanded people to rape and murder. Dany set Slaver's bay on fire. Not the best way to fix slavery but that doesn't make slavery itself okay.

[Rod123]

Pax Romana - Solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant. - They've created a desert and called it peace. / Tacitus, Agricola, 98 AD

We can judge ASOIAF with modern morality because... personally I am not interested in reading something that ultimately argues that in a special set of circumstances, slavery, genocide, murder, rape is a-okay. Tywin is a horrible person because he commanded people to rape and murder. Dany set Slaver's bay on fire. Not the best way to fix slavery but that doesn't make slavery itself okay.

Yet Robb's host also murdered, raped sacked and foraged.

Did you even read the books? read the Arya's and Brienne's POV they are the best, as they portray the Riverlands from the perspective of commoners.

For average Pate, the red wedding was a gift because war stopped, for them it was the same lion and wolf. Only because we only follow the noble houses as if the tens of thousands that marched mattered not.

When did Tywin commited genocide btw? and serfdom was slavery. Just look at how Ramsay treats his "freemen".

[Dire-Lion]

Yet Robb's host also murdered, raped sacked and foraged.

Did you even read the books? read the Arya's and Brienne's POV they are the best, as they portray the Riverlands from the perspective of commoners.

For average Pate, the red wedding was a gift because war stopped, for them it was the same lion and wolf. Only because we only follow the noble houses as if the tens of thousands that marched mattered not.

When did Tywin commited genocide btw? and serfdom was slavery. Just look at how Ramsay treats his "freemen".

If you read the books you would know that 1) Robb never commanded people to rape/ pillage and 2) Tywin actually did.

Yes Tywin ended the war, but that doesn't mean much because he started all the violence. Before you try to say it was to get his son back, remember that you are trying to argue that ordering the raping of an entire geographical region and blaming it on another house is fine instead of peacefully appealing to the king is fine as long as it is to get your son back.

[Nictarion]

Robert Baratheon was a warrior, not a conqueror and not a ruler Ned and Stannis won him his throne.

He won his throne by conquest did he not?

[Rod123]

If you read the books you would know that 1) Robb never commanded people to rape/ pillage and 2) Tywin actually did.

Yes Tywin ended the war, but that doesn't mean much because he started all the violence. Before you try to say it was to get his son back, remember that you are trying to argue that ordering the raping of an entire geographical region and blaming it on another house is fine instead of peacefully appealing to the king is fine as long as it is to get your son back.

-Yeah im pretty sure that the victims of wolves are so relieved when they are being raped, murdered or left to starve by wolfs because Robb is a good guy. Also Robb knows that armies forage, he knows how armies act, its ridiculous to think that Robb wasnt aware of what a passing army of tens of thousands do to the land they pass through. Even the unsullied have to eat, and in medieval times people barely had to eat for themselves, less much for a passing army, thats why famine followed wars.

-It was not about getting Tyrion back, it was about showing that you dont mess with House Lannister, there is a reason why treason is punished by the gallows or worse. In these times there was not the administrative infraestructure we have today, the ruling of the land had to come from people acting in good faith towards his superior, the landed knight to the lords, the lords to the warden, the wardens to the king.

That was nowhere near a perfect system, since human nature, is a nature of ambition and everyone tried to scale its position through politics and war, being a fair and succesful ruler got you far enough, but true empires also needed dread, people needed to fear going against their rulers. If one of the trueborn sons of the warden of the west is kidnapped and he begs for him, he can be kidnapped again and you start looking weak, and your rule starts looking weak, etc etc

[Rod123]

He won his throne by conquest did he not?

He won his throne because Targaryens were dead because of Tywin and defeated in the field because of Ned. He was seated because he has Targaryen blood and the land needed a king.

[Rod123]

Also the war was started by Cersei/Ned, it was a war of succession.

[TheMysteriousOne]

He won his throne because Targaryens were dead because of Tywin and defeated in the field because of Ned. He was seated because he has Targaryen blood and the land needed a king.

There were two Targaryens left at the time of the Sack, Robert didn't get the throne because he had Targaryen blood, although it helped him secure it.

[Rod123]

There were two Targaryens left at the time of the Sack, Robert didn't get the throne because he had Targaryen blood, although it helped him secure it.

They were already marked for killing and it just further proves my point.

Prince Doran among others were willing to set the realm in "Fire and Blood" just to seat Viserys on the throne, who may or may not had been a better ruler than Robert.

Of course from a plot point of view its so noble, Doran gets his revenge, and Targaryens recover their throne, Yet of course you dont care about the tens of thousands dying from famine, war and pillaging in general.

It just proves my point that for the average pate, the killing of the Targaryens was a good thing and that bar a fantasy unforeseeable event that requires Dany and her dragons to be solved. Peace would had been more secure had Dany, Aegon and Viserys had been killed in the cradle.

Succession is such a bloody bussiness, while the most important thing should be who is the hand.

[WildBlood]

So was this just a ploy to re open your locked Tywin thread then by sidestepping the rules?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

They were already marked for killing and it just further proves my point.

Prince Doran among others were willing to set the realm in "Fire and Blood" just to seat Viserys on the throne, who may or may not had been a better ruler than Robert.

Of course from a plot point of view its so noble, Doran gets his revenge, and Targaryens recover their throne, Yet of course you dont care about the tens of thousands dying from famine, war and pillaging in general.

It just proves my point that for the average pate, the killing of the Targaryens was a good thing and that bar a fantasy unforeseeable event that requires Dany and her dragons to be solved. Peace would had been more secure had Dany, Aegon and Viserys had been killed in the cradle.

Succession is such a bloody bussiness, while the most important thing should be who is the hand.

You're taking an utilitarian point of view that I simply can't agree. If you think killing and raping Elia Martell brutally, after killing her children in front of her, and call it "The right to do", then I can't even argue with you. This kind of thinking justified the death of thousands of minorities in the XX century. I'd rather die like Ned and be able to live with myself than die like Tywin, that with all of his misjudgements ended up murdered by the son that was more like him. And look at what he did to his own family. Dorne is coming for them, his ambition and his lack of parenthood made Jaime and Cersei what they are. His daughter, the proud of CR, had to do the WOS, Lady Stoneheart is planning the second RW, Joffrey died choking and his line is sure to end. That's what Tywin got by being ruthless. A good leader knows that you can't control people only with hate and fear. It is the balance between love and fear that makes the good Leader.

[The Don Dadda]

Do you know what a mockery or parody is? Its basically taking from one place and putting him into a context that makes him look silly. All authors put something of themselves in their books, and in their characters, that doesnt makes them a mary sue.

Yes I know what a parody is. Yes I know what a mockery is. Yes your right that doesn't make them a Mary Sue? I thought you were arguing that Dany is a Mary Sue? Can you please answer my question about your statement that 'everything works out in the end' but 'nothing turns out as expected'?