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R+L=J v 58


Stubby

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The day he was to die, Lord Mormont said to Sam Tarly.

"...The Wall was made to guard the realms of men...and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are, when you come right down to it. (...) We lost sight of the true enemy...."

And then, dying:

"Tarly. Tarly, go. Go."

"You must. Must tell them."

"All.The fist. The wildlings. Dragonglass. This. All."

Time after, Donal Noye: "Jon Snow, the Wall is yours."

The IT's not. Full stop.

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Never thought about that aspect of the story.That's an interesting theory as it kind of explains in a way the execution of the two Starks.

Greymoon, those are very interesting points. I admit that a lot of Lyanna and Rhaegar's actions don't seem to make sense or to have been, well, honorable for lack of a better word. I do think there is something odd about the Dornish behavior in all this and their loyalty to the Targ dynasty. J. Stargaryen, I think, brought this up in an earlier thread.

I think it makes sense too. ;) but we can't really conclude one way or another...I like this theory though because there seems to be a lot of inconsistencies between what we are told about the characters and the way they apparently acted...

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I am not sure if this has been noted before, I tried searching through the sections for it, so tell me if it has. Just last night, I was rereading the end of A Game of Thrones, when I came upon a passage I had not noted before. It is in Dany's dreams, which we already know sometimes have prophetic properties. In it, she is seeing the faces of all the kings who came before her:

Tourmaline can have different colors, but about 95% of it is a dark grey that looks black. It is called schorl.

In AGOT, Bran thinks:

I've seen it argued before that Jon's eyes are a dark purple, but what if they aren't? What if Jon's eyes actually are black...just like some of his Targaryen ancestors?

This also puts a whole new spin too on all those A+J= J, C, and T theories.

When Tyrwin shows Tyrion the swords made out of Ice, he uses the same words that Bran to describe the steel.

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The things that don't make sense to me are the following:

  • If Lyanna got wind of her brother and her father's death, why would she stay at the ToJ? - for her own safety, I agree with this perspective, but I don't believe that Lyanna would have accepted this quietly and not tried to reach Ned. IMO, that means that she was either coerced by Rhaegar, or felt that the war had been inevitable.
  • If Rhaegar meant to marry Lyanna properly, why go to the ToJ, and not establish another household with his second wife, as would be the logical and proper thing to do?
  • If Rhaegar and Lyanna took a ship to go from the north to the south, and didn't want to go to KL, why didn't they go to Dragonstone?
  • If the ToJ was in a bad enough shape that Ned could use its stone to build some cairns, why would Rhaegar consider this a proper and practical place for hiding his paramour/second wife who is later pregnant with his child?
  • If the ToJ was a place where Rhaegar and Lyanna had planned to stay for a long time, how did they get any supplies up there, with only to knights of the KG to help them? And if more than only two knights of the KG were responsible for bringing supplies, why does no one else seem to know about it?
  • since ravens seem unreliable, how would Rhaegar and Lyanna have communicated to plan the elopement? Who could have been passing on their messages? If you want to believe that Rhaegar simply told Lyanna meet me there at the moons turn, alright, why not? But I think that nothing about planning an elopement or kidnapping was/could have been practical or run smoothly between such great distances as Winterfell and KL.

I am going to address this part and in fact, more generally, the fact R + L were hiding out at the TOJ. Two things in particular caught my attention about the TOJ:

  • the fact they were obviously hiding in a non well catered place that was hald crumbling (I might be exaggerating but as far as we know, it wasn't too difficult for Ned to take the tower apart).
  • the fact that the Tower of Joy is in Dorne. Yes, I know it is close to Starfall than to Sunspear, but still, going to a region ruled by your wife's family to have some sexy times with your paramour doesn't sound like the best idea ever to me.

In my opinion, this is why I speculate they were staying there:

  • As some have stated, it seems very out of character on Rhaegar's account to suddently run away with a younger girl while he was well thought off, married, with kids and so on. I, for one, believe he left for the love he had for Lyanna (real love, not duty as his relationship with Elia) and also, maybe, because Lyanna and her wolf-blood might have forced him to make a move (as some have said: maybe the is some foreshadowing - postshadowing? - that she ran off because she didn't want to marry Bob)
  • As Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's bestest friend, he probably got the idea of that tower that wasn't occupied and that was close to Starfall should they need anything.
  • The Tower doesn't sound like it is a place where people can live for a long period of time. Hence why I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna hadn't planned on staying there a very long time, it was maybe just a temporary hideout. We don't know anything about their escape but it is also possible that Rhaegar brought Lyanna there to be with her in secret for a while and then see what was happening.
  • The thing that bothers me most: HOW did Brandon Stark hear about the escape and where did the abduction and rape rumors came from in the first place? It makes me think that someone must have said to the Starks that Lyanna had been taken away by Rhaegar. But who would have an interest in angering the Starks? At the time, IIRC, R+L hadn't been gone a long time and the whole thing could just have been temporary and settled in a relatively quiet way (no need for the whole realm to hear that Lyanna Stark had been "dishonored" by the Prince if there weren't already rumors of abduction, rape and so on IMO). Pure speculation: 1) we know Ashara Dayne was close to one of the Starks (some believe it was Brandon, the rumors say it was Ned) AND she was Elia's lady in waiting and Arthur's sister. GRRM even said she wasn't held prisonner in Starfall and that she was able to travel from the moment she was back there. So she could have given the information "Rhaegar left his wife and kids and abducted your little sister". 2) Varys: he was already trying to stir up a conflict between Aerys and Rhaegar, and, we've discovered afterwards, to stir up a more general conflict between the major houses. He could have been the one to spill the information about R+L running away in some ears that would go talk about that directly to the Starks.
  • So as a conclusion: I'd say they were hiding at the TOJ in the end because they didn't really have a choice. It doesn't seem to be a place thought to hold residents for a very long time, but once the Rebellion exploded with Lyanna's brother and father being murdered in KL and Lyanna's fiancé and brother going to war against Rhaegar's family, I guess they found they were kind of stuck.

Of course this is based on complete speculation as we don't know anything about the events that happened around R+L or the TOJ, but I assume the place wasn't supposed to hold them for a long time, whether they planned to go back to KL or anywhere else after having consummated their love or whether they planned to casually take a boat and flee to the free cities, who knows.

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This, and also just because she was able to "calmly" judge Robert (a guy she wasn't super into) doesn't mean we can expect a teenage girl to be logical about love. For me it's not a character inconsistency...it's hormones.

Now, I can't answer why her type is a moody harpist as opposed to a beefy hunksicle, but the heart wants what it wants.

"Moody harpist" is a great description.

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I am going to address this part and in fact, more generally, the fact R + L were hiding out at the TOJ. Two things in particular caught my attention about the TOJ:

  • the fact they were obviously hiding in a non well catered place that was hald crumbling (I might be exaggerating but as far as we know, it wasn't too difficult for Ned to take the tower apart).
  • the fact that the Tower of Joy is in Dorne. Yes, I know it is close to Starfall than to Sunspear, but still, going to a region ruled by your wife's family to have some sexy times with your paramour doesn't sound like the best idea ever to me.

In my opinion, this is why I speculate they were staying there:

  • As some have stated, it seems very out of character on Rhaegar's account to suddently run away with a younger girl while he was well thought off, married, with kids and so on. I, for one, believe he left for the love he had for Lyanna (real love, not duty as his relationship with Elia) and also, maybe, because Lyanna and her wolf-blood might have forced him to make a move (as some have said: maybe the is some foreshadowing - postshadowing? - that she ran off because she didn't want to marry Bob)
  • As Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's bestest friend, he probably got the idea of that tower that wasn't occupied and that was close to Starfall should they need anything.
  • The Tower doesn't sound like it is a place where people can live for a long period of time. Hence why I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna hadn't planned on staying there a very long time, it was maybe just a temporary hideout. We don't know anything about their escape but it is also possible that Rhaegar brought Lyanna there to be with her in secret for a while and then see what was happening.
  • The thing that bothers me most: HOW did Brandon Stark hear about the escape and where did the abduction and rape rumors came from in the first place? It makes me think that someone must have said to the Starks that Lyanna had been taken away by Rhaegar. But who would have an interest in angering the Starks? At the time, IIRC, R+L hadn't been gone a long time and the whole thing could just have been temporary and settled in a relatively quiet way (no need for the whole realm to hear that Lyanna Stark had been "dishonored" by the Prince if there weren't already rumors of abduction, rape and so on IMO). Pure speculation: 1) we know Ashara Dayne was close to one of the Starks (some believe it was Brandon, the rumors say it was Ned) AND she was Elia's lady in waiting and Arthur's sister. GRRM even said she wasn't held prisonner in Starfall and that she was able to travel from the moment she was back there. So she could have given the information "Rhaegar left his wife and kids and abducted your little sister". 2) Varys: he was already trying to stir up a conflict between Aerys and Rhaegar, and, we've discovered afterwards, to stir up a more general conflict between the major houses. He could have been the one to spill the information about R+L running away in some ears that would go talk about that directly to the Starks.
  • So as a conclusion: I'd say they were hiding at the TOJ in the end because they didn't really have a choice. It doesn't seem to be a place thought to hold residents for a very long time, but once the Rebellion exploded with Lyanna's brother and father being murdered in KL and Lyanna's fiancé and brother going to war against Rhaegar's family, I guess they found they were kind of stuck.

Of course this is based on complete speculation as we don't know anything about the events that happened around R+L or the TOJ, but I assume the place wasn't supposed to hold them for a long time, whether they planned to go back to KL or anywhere else after having consummated their love or whether they planned to casually take a boat and flee to the free cities, who knows.

These are really fascinating points you make, especially about the condition of the tower and how they may have only initially planned on being there temporarily. I also really like your idea about Ashara possibly being the one who told Brandon about R&L. It seems likely that she would have had the motives. You brought up that idea on another thread and I got into into a whole discussion about it with someone else who pointed out that the timeline seemed off to him, that if Ashara got pregnant at Haranhall, she would have left KL long before R&L ran off together, so how would she know about it, especially before Brandon knew? I still think it could be possible, but I couldn't think of a response. What do you think about the timing?

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Does anyone ever mention that the Tower of Joy was very close to Summerhall? Rhaegar was known for being very fond of that place. Maybe the tower was where he stayed when he went to summerhall. This would make more sense than Rhaegar camping out in the ruins at night.

The Tower of Joy was in the Red Mountains, so I think it'd've have been further southwest in Dorne than Summerhall was.

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wasn't Brandon in Riverrun when he found out about Lyanna? Ashara would have to be in Riverrrun to tell him anything =/

No, he was on the way to Riverrun, which makes it even weirder, as he couldn't have received ravenmail.

Further southwest but still about equi-distance between Starfall and Summerhall to the TOJ. Starfall is south of TOJ. Summerhall is north of TOJ.

I'd say Starfall is a bit closer but not that it really matters - if the Wall is 300 miles long, it's still shorter than the Summerhall-ToJ distance.

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No, he was on the way to Riverrun, which makes it even weirder, as he couldn't have received ravenmail.

I'd say Starfall is a bit closer but not that it really matters - if the Wall is 300 miles long, it's still shorter than the Summerhall-ToJ distance.

We have no indication that Rhaegar was ever at Starfall or that he remained at the ToJ for the duration. It seems like people may be suggesting that Rhaegar was at Starfall prior to the ToJ. I'm wondering if Rhaegar being at Summerhall prior to ToJ would make more sense. There was a battle through near to Summerhall which may have moved Rhaegar further south to the ToJ for protection. After the Battle, Ned obtains Dawn and delivers it to Starfall.

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No, he was on the way to Riverrun, which makes it even weirder, as he couldn't have received ravenmail.

That's why I think that it was Lord Rickard who started the rumor. That he woke up one day and his daughter was gone, so he sought out Benjen, who let it slip that Lyanna meant to ride to KL/go to Rhaegar. The kidnapping fits with nothing we have heard about Rhaegar's character so I think, we should not take it at face value.

Since it is strange how quickly Brandon got wind of it, my bet is that Rickard and maester Walys started the rumor mill. This could have had different reasons 1) to get peasants to pay close attention to any young traveling girl, and make it more difficult to move about

2) to protect Lyanna honor

3) if there was anything like a conspiracy, to have an alibi to start the war sooner than was planned and prevent any loss of credibility.

4) I'd even add that telling anyone that his daughter disobeyed/left would have been humiliating and undermined his own authority as warden of the north.

The only unexpected consequence would have been Brandon’s going berserk.

Of course it's possible other people started the rumor, but if Brandon wasn't even at Riverrun yet, the rumor couldn't have come from the south I think...

@Mayura I agree that the ToJ was probably not a place where they planned to stay for a long time. That's what's bothered me the most about the idea that R+L eloped and then stayed hidden at the tower, with no worries in the world.

The greatest logistical problem for the ToJ, would be the bringing of drinkable water. Food you can store wheat, or salted/smoked meat, flour etc. are things that keep, things that could have been brought months in advance. But water is a different matter. And I don't imagine the dornish mountains as being very green...maybe it's a misconception, but I see only arid mountain slopes in my mind.

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ToJ was in the Dornish marches, overseeing the Princess Pass, and close to Manwoodys' place. The later is the most intriguing, because those are Daynes' north easter neighbours, and these relations tend to be ackward. They might be good neighbours, anyway.

GRRM gives us a guide of R+L at ToJ with the dialogue between Jon and Ygritte about getting lost in the cave. Well, a tragic love story without a proper place for them in the world. Nothing new; Romeo and Julliett didn't have, either.

I don't really know why, but I imagine that Lyanna could be in Starfall with Ashara before her "abduction". There's no clue, but it could make sense. We've been given some hints to imagine it:

- Ashara and Lyanna met in HH, where A "looked to Stark", whatever it means

- Ashara was somehow "dishonoured" there, and seemingly got pregnant

- There seems to be some unknown relation between houses Stark and Dayne

- Rickard Stark had "southron ambitions", and he should have favoured his children's friendship with southron lords

- When the "abduction", Brandon, Ned and Lyanna were out of Winterfell

We can build a story on this hints. Ashara went to Starfall to birth her child. By then, the false spring should have passed, and it was a rather good chance for Lyanna to have a sejour in mild weathered Dorne. Since there, she'd had found it easier to plan her escape with Rhaegar. As you say, ToJ is roughly halfway between Starfall and Summerhall.

It's mere speculation, but it fits, and don't really know anything about the details of deed.

Edit typing mistakes

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Yep, to nit pick at teh little subtle clues that GRRM buried all over the place as he chuckled to himself.

Sneaky little teasers like this:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

He blamed Jon Snow and wondered when Jon's heart had turned to stone.

:leer:

On a side note, the more I reflect upon the shifting (multi-interpretative?) quality of the AA prophecy, the more I suspect it could literally refer to more than one salvific figure. The same way language has been misleading Maesters and Maeges in regard to gender, it could have well misled them in regard to number (a few threads back we drew parallels between Latin and Valyrian exploring both collective nouns as well as neutral gender nouns).

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ToJ was in the Dornish marches, overseeing the Princess Pass, and close to Manwoodys' place. The later is the most intriguing, because those are Daynes' north easter neighbours, and these relations tend to be ackward. They might be good neighbours, anyway.

GRRM gives us a guide of R+L at ToJ with the dialogue between Jon and Ygritte about getting lost in the cave. Well, a tragic love story without a proper place for them in the world. Nothing new; Romeo and Julliett didn't have, either.

I don't really know why, but I imagine that Lyanna could be in Starfall with Ashara before her "abduction". There's no clue, but it could make sense. We've been given some hints to imagine it:

- Ashara and Lyanna met in HH, where A "looked to Stark", whatever it means

- Ashara was somehow "dishonoured" there, and seemingly got pregnant

- There seems to be some unknown relation between houses Stark and Dayne

- Rickard Stark had "southron ambitions", and he should have favoured his children's friendship with southron lords

- When the "abduction", Brandon, Ned and Lyanna were out of Winterfell

We can build a story on this hints. Ashara went to Starfall to birth her child. By then, the false spring should have passed, and it was a rather good chance for Lyanna to have a sejour in mild weathered Dorne. Since there, she'd had found it easier to plan her escape with Rhaegar. As you say, ToJ is roughly halfway between Starfall and Summerhall.

It's mere speculation, but it fits, and don't really know anything about the details of deed.

Edit typing mistakes

I think that Lyanna was in Harrenhal when Rhaegar "abducted" her. Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent helped Rhaegar "abduct" her, so I think that Ser Oswell, whose family held Harrenhal then, helped get Rhaegar and Lyanna out without being seen.

Harrenhal is also just north of the Isle of Faces, so Rhaegar and Lyanna could have married there in front of a Weirwood. They could have also married in the Riverlands, with a Septon, who could have been Meribald. As he's been doing marriages all over the Riverlands. And he might not have known it was Rhaegar if he was wearing a cloak.

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I think that Lyanna was in Harrenhal when Rhaegar "abducted" her. Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent helped Rhaegar "abduct" her, so I think that Ser Oswell, whose family held Harrenhal then, helped get Rhaegar and Lyanna out without being seen.

Harrenhal is also just north of the Isle of Faces, so Rhaegar and Lyanna could have married there in front of a Weirwood. They could have also married in the Riverlands, with a Septon, who could have been Meribald. As he's been doing marriages all over the Riverlands. And he might not have known it was Rhaegar if he was wearing a cloak.

As far as we're told, she could be anywhere.

The "abduction" was roughly one year after the tourney. Oswell Whent had also a sister, the Whents had allegiance to the Tullys,... We don't know about any relation between Starks and Whents. Of course it could be, I just like better the Daynes link.

Otoh, I repeat, I think Jon is a bastard, and it doesn't mind. He's R's son, he's one of the dragon's head, he'll fight the WW, and he'll be important for the wildlings. Only he won't sit the IT. He's still among the most relevant characters in the story.

I don't think Varys or LF will sit the IT, either, and they're very important characters.

I thing Martin has used Jon and Ygritte as a reference to tell how the tragic love story between R and L was. He allows these tragic characters some time of joy before their doom comes. He has the last word, anyway.

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As far as we're told, she could be anywhere.

The "abduction" was roughly one year after the tourney. Oswell Whent had also a sister, the Whents had allegiance to the Tullys,... We don't know about any relation between Starks and Whents. Of course it could be, I just like better the Daynes link.

Otoh, I repeat, I think Jon is a bastard, and it doesn't mind. He's R's son, he's one of the dragon's head, he'll fight the WW, and he'll be important for the wildlings. Only he won't sit the IT. He's still among the most relevant characters in the story.

I don't think Varys or LF will sit the IT, either, and they're very important characters.

I thing Martin has used Jon and Ygritte as a reference to tell how the tragic love story between R and L was. He allows these tragic characters some time of joy before their doom comes. He has the last word, anyway.

One of the things you'll find, especially in these threads, is that the KG prove that Jon isn't a bastard.

Dayne and Oswell may have stayed there after Rhaegar was killed because he was their friend, to protect Jon, but Hightower was there. Gerold Hightower was the LC and he was the one who decided what to do. If Jon has been a bastard then Ser Gerold would have marched him, Dayne and Oswell to Dragonstone, where Viserys, who would have been the true King if Jon was a bastard. Hightower was all about honour and his duty, so he wouldn't have stayed there to guard a Targ bastard when he could be making his way to guard the King on Dragonstone.

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