Lady Stoneheart what are her bad deeds and why?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Like Pod and Ser Hyle...

Are they dead? And Ser Hyle has murdered in the Riverlands. He was a Tarly officer, involved in murdering Rivermen.

He is just as much a child as the squires that Karstark killed. Not as young as Bran to be sure, but not considered fully emancipated adults. Pod is also not lowborn.

Yes, he isn't lowborn. Under most circumstances, that would protect him. But Lady Stoneheart doesn't care for money.

And no one would have batted an eye had those squires be killed in battle or be executed by Robb Stark. Karstark died because he went against the expressed command of his king, not because anybody cared for these children.

[Cubicz]

I love that she's a death dealing, take no prisoners hanging machine. Chaotic Neutral all the way :)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

None of her deeds are bad, she is badass.

[Bob Sacamano]

She is definitely not a hero. In some ways, she sees justice the same way Aerys II did, for pure personal gratification.

I'm personally praying for a Lady Stoneheart chapter in WoW. We went 2 books without Theon, why not Catelyn?! I've read that people wouldn't see value in a LS chapter, but I think it would be very intriguing.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

She is definitely not a hero. In some ways, she sees justice the same way Aerys II did, for pure personal gratification.

I'm personally praying for a Lady Stoneheart chapter in WoW. We went 2 books without Theon, why not Catelyn?! I've read that people wouldn't see value in a LS chapter, but I think it would be very intriguing.

Rather nemesis-like. Justice without personal preferences. And without mercy.

[Alhazred]

Honestly I do not really get it, what makes people think she is that bad.

Because her final act in life was the tragic murder of a complete innocent. Because the entire motivating force in her unlife is utter despair and utter hate. Because she has no interest in her still-living daughters.

But if I but up her behaviour against what any leader in her situation would do, well I do not find ANYTHING which would not be justified.

Any person? Or "leader"?

Espacially if I would compare her to todays world leaders.

Ah. See? There's where you go wrong. You think Dracula is good because he is not quite as bad as Satan himself.

Does she commit any sort of warcrime?

Well ... she kills lots of people.

Does she kill non-combatants?

Probably. But who cares? She kills for single-minded hate and vengeance.

[Bob Sacamano]

Rather nemesis-like. Justice without personal preferences. And without mercy.

Yup, it fits her more!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She is, when it comes down to it, a tangible manifestation of a Fury, going around and exacting vengeance. I can say that I root for her at the same time that she makes me feel uneasy about where she's headed and what her actual motives are. It's easy for people to think what happened to Pod, Hyle and Brienne was wrong, because we were in Brienne's head. But on paper, it looks really bad. And call me crazy but I'm shedding no tears for Petyr, Merrett and Ryman Frey.

The Riverlands have basically been taking it up the ass for the entirety of this war. Maybe they need someone like UnCat.

[Cold Hands Luke]

Because her final act in life was the tragic murder of a complete innocent. Because the entire motivating force in her unlife is utter despair and utter hate. Because she has no interest in her still-living daughters.

I agree with you about LS however Gendry has surely told her of Arya and all the orphans at the inn is probably a result of the BwB actively looking for her.

[Aethermancer]

Are they dead? And Ser Hyle has murdered in the Riverlands. He was a Tarly officer, involved in murdering Rivermen.

Yes, he isn't lowborn. Under most circumstances, that would protect him. But Lady Stoneheart doesn't care for money.

And no one would have batted an eye had those squires be killed in battle or be executed by Robb Stark. Karstark died because he went against the expressed command of his king, not because anybody cared for these children.

The key is that no one would have cared if they had been killed in battle. You can be quite sure that people would have batted quite a few eyes if Robb had executed them after they yielded. And Ser Hyle's 'murdering' occured during battle in a state of war. Quite different than murder. Otherwise, LS might as will kill every single person from all sides for engaging in 'murder'.

With regard to Pod and Ser Hyle, they were hanged, by her command.

[Aethermancer]

Rather nemesis-like. Justice without personal preferences. And without mercy.

I fail to see the justice. It seems very indescriminate.

[Bob Sacamano]

I fail to see the justice. It seems very indescriminate.

Justice from her POV

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I fail to see the justice. It seems very indescriminate.

I'm also leery of calling it justice, but I don't see it as being indiscriminate. They're hanging people involved in the Red Wedding, people who sacked Saltpans and people in service (apparently) to the Lannisters. I don't recall them targeting any other major families or smallfolk or anything of that sort. There's a definite "aim" to all of it. Indiscriminate it's not.

[Alhazred]

I'm also leery of calling it justice, but I don't see it as being indiscriminate. They're hanging people involved in the Red Wedding, people who sacked Saltpans and people in service (apparently) to the Lannisters. I don't recall them targeting any other major families or smallfolk or anything of that sort. There's a definite "aim" to all of it. Indiscriminate it's not.

Most words are relative and depend on context. If she is not interested in justice, then perhaps she kills all connected to the Lannisters, and all who are somehow "involved" in the Red Wedding, "indiscriminately", without regard to whether they have actually done anything deserving of death, according to reasonable concepts of justice.

[Biglose]

Because her final act in life was the tragic murder of a complete innocent.

That was not murder. Manslaughter maybe. In fact I guess in most modern countries Walder would be sentenced for that dead, too.

Honestly I doubt that she would even spend a single day in prison. I guess the word we would use would be something along "victim".

Because she has no interest in her still-living daughters.

Thats just wrong as stated multible times in this thread.

Any person? Or "leader"?

Any person in her position is a leader...

Ah. See? There's where you go wrong. You think Dracula is good because he is not quite as bad as Satan himself.

No. The point is you can't just look at a general point of view. Or switzerland would host the last few of morally intact people.

Every single soldier all around the world would be "evil" as soon as he has seen combat.

Actions can only be seen in context.

Well ... she kills lots of people.

Killing is not a crime.

Probably. But who cares? She kills for single-minded hate and vengeance.

That is where I kind of disagree.

First of all we do not really know why she was sent back and so we can not really judge her motivation. If she was sent back by the gods (as it is implied) her motiviation would be fullfilling the will of the gods (or the god). So if you assume that god(s) is/are good...Thats why motivations are tricky.

Thats why you always should judge people by their actions and not by their thoughts.

The point is, that the gloves came off. There will be no mercy shown to anyone of the BwB, so why should they show mercy. They are not the superior fighting force who just could afford it, they CAN'T. The point is if they really want to protect the people and set an example that no Lord can just come in and murder/rape and burn everyone, than there is no other way. You have to kill everybody taking part in it until they retreat. As a matter of fact that is not even really "immoral" because she would not be breaking any treaty and well everybody involved made his choice. True most did not have much of a choice, but again thats not the fault of UnCat.

Again: If you say her goal is to protect the little people than she needs to even really step up her game. The price of blood she needs to make the Lannisters and the Freys pay must be so high, her vengence so mercilessly that the next Lord who enters the Riverlands will "Uneat" his breakfast.

[Hatbarlives]

Good topic! I've never thought Uncat is as evil as people try to make out. After all her family and Northerners went through I don't blame her for the hangng of Freys, in fact I rather enjoy it! This is a cruel and ruthless world and Uncat can now use this fact in a way that Catelyn never did.

It also annoys me when people have a go at Cat for killing Jinglebells. After what she had just had to witness and the madness and pain how can anyone blame her for that?!?!

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

LS is impervious to the Nuremburg defense. Is it wrong for her to kill Lannister/Frey soldiers who were just following orders? There isn't really a clear answer for that.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Lady Stoneheart is still one of my favorite readings when she first appeared in the books. "She doesn't speak. But she remembers."

I love this whole "Freys are so nice, Lannisters are such good people". To those, I'd just say, grab your copy of Storm of Swords and go to Catelyn's last chapter. Then tell me about their mercy and how they were all forgiving to her and to Robb. If anything, Lady Stoneheart represents me as a reader, what I wanted to happen after the RW. She's taking revenge for me and for every other reader for Catelyn's and Robb's death, and Dacey's, and so many other Northeners.

Exactly! Have people lost their mind? When did the Freys become such great heroes?

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Because her final act in life was the tragic murder of a complete innocent. Because the entire motivating force in her unlife is utter despair and utter hate. Because she has no interest in her still-living daughters.

She said that if they don't let Robb go she will kill Jinglebells in her honor as a Tully. It was the Freys that killed Jinglebells not Catelyn. Not killing him would have been dishonorable. Get your facts straight!

[Alhazred]

That was not murder. Manslaughter maybe.

Why quibble?

Killing is not a crime.

By default, it is, absent a specific doctrine of justification.

You have named no specific doctrine of justification. Only the right of "Leaders" to Kill.

Which does not count in my book.

First of all we do not really know why she was sent back and so we can not really judge her motivation. If she was sent back by the gods (as it is implied) her motiviation would be fullfilling the will of the gods (or the god).

Or the Devil, more likely. The only "god" hinted to have been involved is the Red God, and he seems more like a demon to me.

So if you assume that god(s) is/are good...

I'm not sure why I should ... given the long tradition in Western folklore and fiction that most revenants are assumed to be agents of Hell.

The point is, that the gloves came off. There will be no mercy shown to anyone of the BwB, so why should they show mercy.

Umm ... maybe because they are not evil?

As a matter of fact that is not even really "immoral" because she would not be breaking any treaty ...

Jesus F. Christ! I don't think I want to talk to you any more.