Lady Stoneheart what are her bad deeds and why?

[Alhazred]

She said that if they don't let Robb go she will kill Jinglebells in her honor as a Tully. It was the Freys that killed Jinglebells not Catelyn. Not killing him would have been dishonorable. Get your facts straight!

Her "honor as a Tully"??!! You think I give a rat's tail about her "honor as a Tully"??!! Her elitist pride as an aristocrat??!! You think I give a rat's ass about what you call "honor"??!!

She murdered a complete innocent. If she was bound by "honor" to keep the threat, then she never should have made it in the first place.

[Seeeyeare]

For reference:

No. The others were just raiding, slaughtering and raping the smallfolk of the Riverlands.

Like Pod and Ser Hyle...

When?

[Wouter]

Because she has no interest in her still-living daughters.

This is very likely not true. A few years ago, there was (maybe still is, I don't know) a boarder who was translating AFFC for Polish readers. He got (some) chapters in advance, in non-final form, to kickstart the translation process (as GRRM was, of course, running "rather" late with the book). He shared a piece of an early version of Brienne's final AFFC chapter, and there were some interesting differences with the final version. In his version, Pod wasn't hanged (I guess this was changed to give Brienne a more believable motive for what amounts to betraying Jaime), but more interestingly, it was made explicitly clear that the BWB was actively looking for Sansa. I guess the latter will come up in later chapters involving the BWB, and it may indeed be the reason that Jaime will probably make it out alive.

As for the hangings, note that lord Tarly is hanging people left and right, and Jaime - "Goldenhand the just" also orders at one point, very off-handedly, that his men must hang any outlaw they catch. And considering that Tarly and especially the Lannisters and Jaime (their opening move of the war was to unleash a small genocide on the Trident) are actually the aggressors in the Riverlands, its curious they don't catch nearly the flak that Stoneheart is getting. She gave Brienne more of a chance to explain herself, when compared to what Tarly and Jaime are doing to "outlaws".

[Alhazred]

This is very likely not true. A few years ago, there was [...]

It appears to be true based on the published chapter. Until further notice ...

As for the hangings, note that lord Tarly is hanging people left and right [...]

Tarly was a villain, last time I checked. Certainly not sympathetic. But whether those hangings were justified is a separate issue. Why are you so eager to point the finger elsewhere instead of addressing the issue at hand?

, and Jaime - "Goldenhand the just" also orders at one point, very off-handedly, that his men must hang any outlaw they catch.

Also a villain, last time I checked. "Goldhand the Just", my ass.

[Leif]

She judges people w/o giving them a trial. Blames 'em without letting them explain, etc.

If Thoros don't like the byatch, neither do I.

Just to add on to that, she's turned the Brotherhood into a band of murderers. She doesn't care about helping the people anymore, only about getting revenge. The Brotherhood used to stand for some form of justice, but not anymore.

[Biglose]

Why quibble?

Because facts are important

By default, it is, absent a specific doctrine of justification.

Not really. Killing in and for itself is not a crime. See self defence.

You have named no specific doctrine of justification. Only the right of "Leaders" to Kill.

Which does not count in my book.

I never said that. I said, that in war you kind of kill your enemies. And the enemy of the BwB are at this point primarly the Lanisters because they are the occupying power.

Or the Devil, more likely. The only "god" hinted to have been involved is the Red God, and he seems more like a demon to me.

Which would make her good or evil form the start and she would be as good or as evil as the former leader of the BwB, because they too served the red god.

I'm not sure why I should ... given the long tradition in Western folklore and fiction that most revenants are assumed to be agents of Hell.

Read the old testament. God is quite heavy on the "kill them all" stuff.

Umm ... maybe because they are not evil?

Which does not magically grants you the ressources to take care of prisoners. What should they do? But them in a hole in the ground and wait until hunger and filth take them?

Jesus F. Christ! I don't think I want to talk to you any more.

Thanks for leaving out the important part of the quote. Just take the series and what the battle of the Lannisters against the 2000 men of Robb Stark. Yeah, they are all taken prisoner after they lost..Not.

So you expect Cat to be more mercifull than Dany, Tywin, Tyrion, Theon, Arya, Edd, Jamie oh just make it every fucking person with power in the books with maybe the exception of Robb Stark.

So to summerise it to be good, you have to be at least Robb Stark. Everybody else is evil.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Read the old testament. God is quite heavy on the "kill them all" stuff.

I'm quite used to have to explain why the TV show isn't canon by now, but do we have to start with various non-series rl books too?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

She judges people w/o giving them a trial. Blames 'em without letting them explain, etc.

Wait what? Patching people up to hear their testimony and judging them only after they have given an unbelievable explanation isn't a trial anymore?

[Wouter]

It appears to be true based on the published chapter. Until further notice ...

The published chapter is silent on the issue. Nowhere does it state or indicate that Stoneheart isn't interested in Arya and Sansa. The BWB is not impressed by Brienne's knowledge of Arya, because they already knew what she knows.

It may even be an extra motivation for Stoneheart to turn on Brienne; since all indications say Brienne has now turned cloak to join the Lannister cause (we readers know the truth, but consider how it looks to the BWB, who have quite a bit of evidence that goes against Brienne) and she admitted she was looking for Sansa, the logical conclusion would be she is helping Jaime to find Sansa for Cersei to torture/kill.

[Biglose]

I'm quite used to have to explain why the TV show isn't canon by now, but do we have to start with various non-series rl books too?

Well, would you please read the quote first. It was about WESTERN not WESTEROS volklore.

[Leif]

Wait what? Patching people up to hear their testimony and judging them only after they have given an unbelievable explanation isn't a trial anymore?

It's not a trial if you go "No no no no no" the whole time and then end it with "Just hang them."

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

It makes complete sense (at least in a rigid black and white way) for LS to regard the Lannisters/Freys and those who serve them as evil. They beat Robb with an evil act. The RW broke the sacred law of guest right.

[Mark Antony]

Wait what? Patching people up to hear their testimony and judging them only after they have given an unbelievable explanation isn't a trial anymore?

I"d argue her trials are more fair than the Lighting Lords. The trial by battle vs the Hound was a complete farce.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Wait what? Patching people up to hear their testimony and judging them only after they have given an unbelievable explanation isn't a trial anymore?

Also, trials are a complete joke anyway. I have yet to see a fair trial in this entire series. If the person judging wants to find you guilty, you will be found guilty. It doesn't really make sense to get angry about the lack of farcical show trial.

[Biglose]

It's not a trial if you go "No no no no no" the whole time and then end it with "Just hang them."

What standarts are you applying? Nedd gave people less of a trail as shown in the beginning.

@WeirwoodTreeHugger

The freaking joke about it is, that you would probably convicted today with far less evidence.

I mean honestly, what should LS do? Get her the prosecuter of the O.J Simpson trail to show that oathkeeper was really given to her and make her try it on with the result, that her hands would be to big to hold it? And if we are at it, get her the jury of the trail too?

I guess some people just need to hate CAT undead or not...

[Aethermancer]

She said that if they don't let Robb go she will kill Jinglebells in her honor as a Tully. It was the Freys that killed Jinglebells not Catelyn. Not killing him would have been dishonorable. Get your facts straight!

So because she said she was going to kill him if they didn't obey her demands it doesn't count as murder?

She held a knife to the throat of a person, and explained her demands, stated that if her demands were not met THEN she would kill a specific person. She explicitly stated her intent to kill another person, there is no doubt that she intended to kill Jinglebell. 100% murder.

edit: fixed double negatives.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Her "honor as a Tully"??!! You think I give a rat's tail about her "honor as a Tully"??!! Her elitist pride as an aristocrat??!! You think I give a rat's ass about what you call "honor"??!!

She murdered a complete innocent. If she was bound by "honor" to keep the threat, then she never should have made it in the first place.

Yeah, because they were just trying to kill her last son. Just that. Not only that, they were committing treason against their King and breaking the oldest tradition in Westeros, the guest right. Catelyn didn't murdered an innocent. She made the threat to keep her own son alive, and she had honor enough.

In a series about medieval powerful families, you talk about aristocratic pride? Why do you read the series? 95% of the main characters are part of the aristocracy, if not pretty much all of them. They all have the same entitlement, because they were born in the rich part of society. You shouldn't read any POVs to complain about aristocracy.

What should be her choice of action in your opinion, order popcorn and soda and watch Robb's death?

[Leif]

What standarts are you applying? Nedd gave people less of a trail as shown in the beginning.

Who says Ned was perfect? Ned judged people equally bad - though he didn't have the power to execute them every time.

I'm just sayin' that, compared to Beric's brotherhood, Stoneheart's sucks. They're not likable at all, IMO. Hell, at least Beric TRIED dealing out justice - even though his methods - or anyone's methods aren't and weren't perfect. She's no better than Gregor's band of lunatics at this point - except for the fact that she kills them in a more 'humane' way.

[Alhazred]

Not really. Killing in and for itself is not a crime.

It is absent a specific doctrine of justification.

See self defence.

Self defense is a specific doctrine of justification. And it is not applicable here. Try again.

I said, that in war you kind of kill your enemies.

The "anything does in war" defense. Sorry, I don't believe in that defense.

Read the old testament. God is quite heavy on the "kill them all" stuff.

Well then! What are you waiting for! Go kill everybody! It's obviously what you believe in.

So you expect Cat to be more mercifull than Dany, Tywin, Tyrion, Theon, Arya, Edd, Jamie oh just make it every fucking person with power in the books with maybe the exception of Robb Stark.

I see no evidence that she is more merciful than they are. They all suck, though, with the exception of Eddard. Dany and Arya might be redeemable.

So to summerise it to be good, you have to be at least Robb Stark. Everybody else is evil.

Pretty much. I love the fact that you are using Theon and Jaime, murderers of children, as your standard of morality.

[Eira Seren]

I'm on the fence about LS. On one hand, she satisfies the need for vengeance against the dastardly Freys. On the other hand, she's definitely crossed the line into war crimes. There's not much that's human about her anymore, unless we count her rage, but even then she seems more rage personified.