R+L=J v 59

[Dead Wolf]

You seriously think that's a risk they're going to take? Especially after Rhaenys and Aegon, Jon's half-sister and half-brother, have already been violently killed? And especially when Ned has shown himself to be loyal to Robert, to the point where he might feel compelled to tell Robert about Jon's existence.

Violently killed by the Lannisters. Ned let the Tyrells bend the knee and was known to be an honorable man. Ned might have gotten Lyanna to a maester if they had stood aside, but they chose to fight him to the death? Ned knew where to find them and Robert could have known too. Staying only endangered Lyanna and her child. The first duty of the KG is to protect the king, and staying at the TOJ when all of Westeros has submitted to the king's enemies and they know where to find him is a funny way of keeping their vows.

[Dragonfish]

Violently killed by the Lannisters.

With Robert's approval, I might add. And even if the Kingsguard didn't know this, to them Ned is still on the side of Robert and, by proxy, the Lannisters.

Ned let the Tyrells bend the knee and was known to be an honorable man.

Was he known as an honorable man at the time? I've always gotten the impression that he was a bit of an unknown quantity until Brandon and Rickard died, given he was a second son from the faraway North. Besides, the Kingsguard might very well have feared that his honor would require him to turn the child over to Robert or at least tell him about it.

Let met also add this question: if Lyanna had nothing to fear from Ned, then why was there fear in her eyes until she managed to extract her promises from him?

Ned might have gotten Lyanna to a maester if they had stood aside, but they chose to fight him to the death?

They were ordered to guard the tower. "Guard" does not mean "let one of Robert's top allies through."

Ned knew where to find them and Robert could have known too. Staying only endangered Lyanna and her child.

Who said they were planning on staying after they defeated Ned?

[Dead Wolf]

With Robert's approval, I might add. And even if the Kingsguard didn't know this, to them Ned is still on the side of Robert and, by proxy, the Lannisters.

Was he known as an honorable man at the time? I've always gotten the impression that he was a bit of an unknown quantity until Brandon and Rickard died, given he was a second son from the faraway North. Besides, the Kingsguard might very well have feared that his honor would require him to turn the child over to Robert or at least tell him about it.

Let met also add this question: if Lyanna had nothing to fear from Ned, then why was there fear in her eyes until she managed to extract her promises from him?

They were ordered to guard the tower. "Guard" does not mean "let one of Robert's top allies through."

Who said they were planning on staying after they defeated Ned?

They did. They said "The Kingsguard does not flee. Waiting at the TOJ was a stupid move on their part, when Ned could have easily brought 7000 instead of being in a party of seven. Lyanna feared for her child, she would have heard about Rhaenys and Aegon, she wasn't afraid of Ned. Ned had proved he was a merciful man if not an honorable one. He could have taken Lord Tyrell's head and demanded Robert strip his heirs of lands and titles. Instead, he let Mace surrender peacefully.

[Dragonfish]

They did. They said "The Kingsguard does not flee.

You and I have a very different reading of that statement. You seem to understand it as a declaration that they're never leaving the tower, which strikes me as a bit ridiculous. I understood it to mean that they were never leaving their new king's side.

Lyanna feared for her child, she would have heard about Rhaenys and Aegon, she wasn't afraid of Ned.

Why would she fear for her child if she could trust Ned? Shouldn't Ned's mere presence be enough to assure her that her child would be okay, if what you say is true? And if so, then why would she still be afraid until she extracted the promise from Ned?

Ned had proved he was a merciful man if not an honorable one.

And he was nonetheless allied with and sworn to baby-killers. Targaryen baby-killers, to be more precise.

He could have taken Lord Tyrell's head and demanded Robert strip his heirs of lands and titles. Instead, he let Mace surrender peacefully.

Even Tywin lets his enemies surrender peacefully sometimes. You know, the one who actually ordered the baby-killing.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Even Tywin lets his enemies surrender peacefully sometimes. You know, the one who actually ordered the baby-killing.

When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.

Tywin Lannister, ASoS, chapter 53

[Dragonfish]

@Lady Gwynhyfvar--

Thank you, that was exactly the passage I was thinking of.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Lyanna feared for her child, she would have heard about Rhaenys and Aegon, she wasn't afraid of Ned.

Then kindly explain why the "fear" doesn't leave her eyes until after Ned makes his promise. Seems like she was afraid of Ned, if not Ned himself, then afraid of Ned telling Robert or not taking care of Jon.

I guess it's some progress — we're not talking about that BS fisherman's daughter angle for the time being.

[Alia of the knife]

They did. They said "The Kingsguard does not flee. Waiting at the TOJ was a stupid move on their part, when Ned could have easily brought 7000 instead of being in a party of seven. Lyanna feared for her child, she would have heard about Rhaenys and Aegon, she wasn't afraid of Ned. Ned had proved he was a merciful man if not an honorable one. He could have taken Lord Tyrell's head and demanded Robert strip his heirs of lands and titles. Instead, he let Mace surrender peacefully.

With all due respect, it was not uncommon in those days for "honor" killings to occur.

While Ned was a just man, he also understood what it meant to lead, as would his father and brother had they lived.

A man of that time who could not control his daughter/sister could not be expected to lead, so I would not take it for granted that Lyanna should not fear Ned, if nothing else for what might be expected of him.

For those reasons, the KG could not have trusted that Ned would not do what might be expected of him.

And the Starks have shown by not employing a headsman that they believe in carrying out justice with their own hands. It may have been a good thing for Lyanna that Ned was the anomaly in their family.

[Angalin]

Closing for length.