HBO foreshadowing

[Captain_Falcon]

This might belong in the TV series forum, but I'm mainly interested in the book implications.

At various points throughout the television series, Benioff and Weiss shed some light on characters and plot points that we would not have come across in the books due to limited POV. For example, they put greater emphasis on the rivalry between Varys and Littlefinger.

My question is this: could the HBO series foreshadow events that haven't happened in the books yet? Is it worth analyzing in the same way that we nitpick passages in ASOIAF? They know where the storyline is heading so, theoretically, it seems plausible. But maybe something in their contract prohibits it. Any insight on the matter would be greatly appreciated :wideeyed:

[yolkboy]

My question is this: could the HBO series foreshadow events that haven't happened in the books yet?

It's certainly possible, but they are still separate canons so I think this thread will be locked on those grounds.

BTW there's a blue rose against a seven edged background in the window of the throne room.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think they should be viewed separately, and though they may eventually get to somewhat of a similar ending point, the way they get there will be so dramatically different as to not have much bearing on the other work. Many of the scripts for episodes are written by writers that have no such fore-knowledge of the series as far as we know, so I think it's a mistake to draw too many conclusions about the books from the show.

[Ser_Cortnay_Penrose]

This has been a large concern of mine as well, though I hadn't thought about the LF vs. Varys point. For me the most obvious instances of D&D's forward knowledge possibly spoiling ASOIAF's future plot are the exclusion of Robb's will and the killing of Talisa.

[Ser_Cortnay_Penrose]

It's certainly possible, but they are still separate canons so I think this thread will be locked on those grounds.

BTW there's a blue rose against a seven edged background in the window of the throne room.

Yes I think this will likely be locked in a few minutes, but too bad because there's no where on the site to conveniently talk about the interplay between the HBO series and the books because the book spoiler rules on the show threads are important and people on the book threads hate dicussing the show, it seems.

[The Silver Otter]

This has been a large concern of mine as well, though I hadn't thought about the LF vs. Varys point. For me the most obvious instances of D&D's forward knowledge possibly spoiling ASOIAF's future plot are the exclusion of Robb's will and the killing of Talisa.

Agreed. I think there is a fair amount of simplification for the series but it can help refine theories. So the idea that Robb's bride was switched when Jaime took Riverun may have less credence.

The George has also been fairly vocal about Drogo killing Mago -- the one that raped Eroh -- saying he's alive in the books still. Seeing the end of ADwD I think there will be more to Mago & Pono's end than Dany just roasting them.

[yolkboy]

Yes I think this will likely be locked in a few minutes, but too bad because there's no where on the site to conveniently talk about the interplay between the HBO series and the books because the book spoiler rules on the show threads are important and people on the book threads hate dicussing the show, it seems.

Why not bring this up with a mod? They might be able to do something about it.

[Rooseman]

too bad because there's no where on the site to conveniently talk about the interplay between the HBO series and the books

Yes, this is a deficit that should be fixed.

[Ser_Cortnay_Penrose]

I think they should be viewed separately, and though they may eventually get to somewhat of a similar ending point, the way they get there will be so dramatically different as to not have much bearing on the other work. Many of the scripts for episodes are written by writers that have no such fore-knowledge of the series as far as we know, so I think it's a mistake to draw too many conclusions about the books from the show.

I agree. And further I don't think the writers of the show really cared all that much about foreshadowing the 4th or 5th seasons in writing season 1 episodes. They were/are concerned with making popular television primarily (clearly they didn't care much about shoe-horning the Reeds into season 3 after ignoring their presence in season 2). However I think some of the more important possible plot points, in particular Robb's will, would be really hard to back track on, especially if it ends up being really crucial to Jon's storyline, which is what concerns me most about the show writer's classified knowledge.

[King of the Road]

It might be worth nitpicking things apart, but the show is likely to follow a somewhat different route to get from A to B than the books will, so conclusions are likely to be only half right.

The George has also been fairly vocal about Drogo killing Mago -- the one that raped Eroh -- saying he's alive in the books still. Seeing the end of ADwD I think there will be more to Mago & Pono's end than Dany just roasting them.

I'm sure they could be changed to some other Dothraki. Let's face it, Mago may be a recurring character, but is he really likely to have a great impact on the story, or have a role that no other character could fill? his absence in terms of the overall plot is unlikely to be greatly noticed. As for Khal Pono, wasn't he mentioned in the series when Rakharo's body was found? If so (I could be wrong) then he already exists in the show universe and could be simply entered into the story at the relevant moment.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

It does. HBO spoils future books in many maaaany ways. Im not watching the show anymore.

[Captain_Falcon]

This has been a large concern of mine as well, though I hadn't thought about the LF vs. Varys point. For me the most obvious instances of D&D's forward knowledge possibly spoiling ASOIAF's future plot are the exclusion of Robb's will and the killing of Talisa.

The reason I used this example is due to the recurring theme of Littlefinger being such a dangerous man. We certainly see this in the books but not the same extent. Varys: "He would see the country burn if he could be king of the ashes." I immediately thought to myself, is it possible that Petyr Baelish could be the next Tywin Lannister of sorts? Or even sit on the IT? I understand there is little evidence to support this hypothesis, but it did strike a chord with me. I also like to think that Varys will have the final word after being bested in the whole Sansa ordeal.

I do judge the books and show as individual entities. That being said, I pray that Benioff and Weiss respect the authenticity of GRRM's story as much as possible.

[Newstar]

A few thoughts that are sort of related to the OP:

1. The showrunners aren't above introducing people and plotlines later than in the books. Remember all the gnashing of teeth after Season 2 when Shireen and Selyse were a no-show? The showrunners decided to put Selyse and Shireen over to Season 3 to make Season 2 more of a triangle between Davos, Stannis, and Melisandre (insert your own StannisxDavos joke here). The same thing goes for characters like the Blackfish and Edmure. So just because a character doesn't show up when they show up in the books, it doesn't mean they've necessarily been written out forever. It's a mistake to think "X didn't show up when they were supposed to" automatically means "X is never going to show up" and that automatically means "X is not important in the books."

The same goes for plot elements like Robb's will. The writers could bring it into play down the road, even if it would require some rather silly backtracking and exposition about how when Robb heard of Sansa's marriage back when he was alive, he decided to X, Y, and Z. Just because it didn't show up when it was supposed to show up doesn't mean it will never show up.

2. With that said, by doing things like making Gendry a composite of Gendry and Edric Storm by essentially taking over Edric Storm's role to date in the books (singled out for execution by Melisandre, with Davos trying to save him), the show seems to be indicating that only one of them will be important, not both.

3. The show does seem to be confirming or ruling out a few fan theories. The popular theory that Ramsay castrated Theon has been seemingly confirmed by Season 3, and the theory that there's a pregnant Jeyne Westerling running around in the books has seemingly been ruled out by the book version of Jeyne's death.

The show is not above throwing out the occasional unambiguous spoiler. (Melisandre tells Arya "We'll meet again," when of course they haven't met in the books to date. Since Melisandre is not going anywhere anytime soon in the books, this suggests that Arya's going to wind up at the Wall at some point.) Nevertheless, actual spoilers, as opposed to conspiracy thinking based on the fact that this or that thing/person didn't show up when they were supposed to, are pretty meagre.

4. On the other hand, sometimes it's hard to tell what's a sly wink to the fans with no foreshadowing relevance at all and what's an actual hint as to how things will shake out in future books. Is Margaery's little suggestion in 3x07 that some women like "pretty girls" confirmation of the fan theory of Margaery being a lesbian, or is it just the writers having a bit of fun at the fans' expense? Is the expensive golden chain Tyrion attempts to give to Shae in 3x07 the TV version of the murder weapon, or is it just a nod to Book Shae's fate and the fact that TV Shae rejects the chain an indication that the show will take a different path? And so on.

5. What the writers bring forward relative to what they shove into the background compared to the books might not necessarily have any long-term implications for their importance in the story. Robb (played by Richard Madden) got a pumped-up storyline, but the showrunners stated it was because they loved what he did with the character, and it's hardly as if Robb's going to play a direct role in the books beyond ASOS. Bronn gets a ton of lines, but he's the sort of character who's popular and fun to write for, as the showrunners have indicated, so I wouldn't read too much into that. And because it's really hard to tell the difference between "This emphasis on X character suggests they'll be important in the books" and "This emphasis on X character suggests that the writers really like writing for the character" seems like a fuzzy one. How much of Littlefinger's pontificating and moustache-twirling is "Pay attention to this dude, because he's going to be the Big Bad in the books" versus "Pay attention to this dude, because the writers love writing supervillain speeches for Aidan Gillen"? Hard to say, really.

6. The writers have a "no one gets dreams but Bran (and Sansa when she had her post-riot nightmare)" policy, so we can't read anything into non-Bran dreams being cut.

My question is this: could the HBO series foreshadow events that haven't happened in the books yet? Is it worth analyzing in the same way that we nitpick passages in ASOIAF?

I wouldn't overthink it too much. That way lies madness, and fretting over what exactly it meeeeeeans that this or that element didn't make it into the show. Nevertheless, of necessity, as the show goes forward, I think of necessity we're going to start seeing a bunch of future plot developments being inadvertently or deliberately spoiled. It's started already, to some extent, in between dead Talisa, the promise of a future meeting between Melisandre and Arya, and castrated Theon, and I imagine it will continue.

[Baelish for President]

I would treat them as entirely separate entities. While the show is based on the books, and series 1 was extremely loyal to AGoT, they seem to be much happier now to change things around, and will have to do so more and more as the series goes on. I could see them quite happily changing all but the most important major plot points to help them tell the story how they want to. Xaro and Pyat Pree both look like they have a further part to play, and if D&D are willing to change the storylines to deal with that, I'm sure they will do the same if Jeyne Westerling, Edric Storm or Robb's Will become important.

With regards to LF's importance, the emphasis on him on the show could foreshadow a big future for him, or it could just make it more realistic when the extent of his plotting is revealed by Lysa.

[Newstar]

I should also add that D&D have no problem killing off characters who are still alive in the books, although I'd stop short of calling any of them important: Xaro, Irri, Mago, Jeyne (or the TV equivalent), Mero, Pyat Pree, etc. I suspect the trend will continue as they try to keep the cast to a manageable size.

[Sweetgirl205]

In the show Marjory is giving Sansa advice about men. Sansa, as summing Marjory to be the virgin she claims to be, asks how she would know. The look Marjory gives her spoke volumes. Marjory has a lover and will be guilty at trial.

[Captain_Falcon]

A few thoughts that are sort of related to the OP:

1. The showrunners aren't above introducing people and plotlines later than in the books. Remember all the gnashing of teeth after Season 2 when Shireen and Selyse were a no-show? The showrunners decided to put Selyse and Shireen over to Season 3 to make Season 2 more of a triangle between Davos, Stannis, and Melisandre (insert your own StannisxDavos joke here). The same thing goes for characters like the Blackfish and Edmure. So just because a character doesn't show up when they show up in the books, it doesn't mean they've necessarily been written out forever. It's a mistake to think "X didn't show up when they were supposed to" automatically means "X is never going to show up" and that automatically means "X is not important in the books."

The same goes for plot elements like Robb's will. The writers could bring it into play down the road, even if it would require some rather silly backtracking and exposition about how when Robb heard of Sansa's marriage back when he was alive, he decided to X, Y, and Z. Just because it didn't show up when it was supposed to show up doesn't mean it will never show up.

2. With that said, by doing things like making Gendry a composite of Gendry and Edric Storm by essentially taking over Edric Storm's role to date in the books (singled out for execution by Melisandre, with Davos trying to save him), the show seems to be indicating that only one of them will be important, not both.

3. The show does seem to be confirming or ruling out a few fan theories. The popular theory that Ramsay castrated Theon has been seemingly confirmed by Season 3, and the theory that there's a pregnant Jeyne Westerling running around in the books has seemingly been ruled out by the book version of Jeyne's death.

The show is not above throwing out the occasional unambiguous spoiler. (Melisandre tells Arya "We'll meet again," when of course they haven't met in the books to date. Since Melisandre is not going anywhere anytime soon in the books, this suggests that Arya's going to wind up at the Wall at some point.) Nevertheless, actual spoilers, as opposed to conspiracy thinking based on the fact that this or that thing/person didn't show up when they were supposed to, are pretty meagre.

4. On the other hand, sometimes it's hard to tell what's a sly wink to the fans with no foreshadowing relevance at all and what's an actual hint as to how things will shake out in future books. Is Margaery's little suggestion in 3x07 that some women like "pretty girls" confirmation of the fan theory of Margaery being a lesbian, or is it just the writers having a bit of fun at the fans' expense? Is the expensive golden chain Tyrion attempts to give to Shae in 3x07 the TV version of the murder weapon, or is it just a nod to Book Shae's fate and the fact that TV Shae rejects the chain an indication that the show will take a different path? And so on.

5. What the writers bring forward relative to what they shove into the background compared to the books might not necessarily have any long-term implications for their importance in the story. Robb (played by Richard Madden) got a pumped-up storyline, but the showrunners stated it was because they loved what he did with the character, and it's hardly as if Robb's going to play a direct role in the books beyond ASOS. Bronn gets a ton of lines, but he's the sort of character who's popular and fun to write for, as the showrunners have indicated, so I wouldn't read too much into that. And because it's really hard to tell the difference between "This emphasis on X character suggests they'll be important in the books" and "This emphasis on X character suggests that the writers really like writing for the character" seems like a fuzzy one. How much of Littlefinger's pontificating and moustache-twirling is "Pay attention to this dude, because he's going to be the Big Bad in the books" versus "Pay attention to this dude, because the writers love writing supervillain speeches for Aidan Gillen"? Hard to say, really.

6. The writers have a "no one gets dreams but Bran (and Sansa when she had her post-riot nightmare)" policy, so we can't read anything into non-Bran dreams being cut.

I wouldn't overthink it too much. That way lies madness, and fretting over what exactly it meeeeeeans that this or that element didn't make it into the show. Nevertheless, of necessity, as the show goes forward, I think of necessity we're going to start seeing a bunch of future plot developments being inadvertently or deliberately spoiled. It's started already, to some extent, in between dead Talisa, the promise of a future meeting between Melisandre and Arya, and castrated Theon, and I imagine it will continue.

Thanks for the post. The Melisandre/ Arya exchange definitely stood out to me as well. Which reminds me, when Melisandre mentions the "brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes" that will shut forever, do we know what she was referring to? I might be missing something, but I understood this exchange as foreshadowing for future FM endeavors that have yet to come in the books (i.e. assassinations of important characters).

[Captain_Falcon]

In the show Marjory is giving Sansa advice about men. Sansa, as summing Marjory to be the virgin she claims to be, asks how she would know. The look Marjory gives her spoke volumes. Marjory has a lover and will be guilty at trial.

Agreed. It seems as though they are playing up Marg's ulterior motives more in the show for the sake of future relevance.

[Newstar]

Thanks for the post. The Melisandre/ Arya exchange definitely stood out to me as well. Which reminds me, when Melisandre mentions the "brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes" that will shut forever, do we know what she was referring to? I might be missing something, but I understood this exchange as foreshadowing for future FM endeavors that have yet to come in the books (i.e. assassinations of important characters).

It's the worst kind of foreshadowing, since it sounds significant, but it's so hopelessly vague that it could refer to just about anybody, and people can run around in circles trying to attribute meaning to it. The eye colour could refer to Arya killing specific characters with that eye colour (green eyes = a Lannister, blue eyes = Sansa, TV Melisandre), or it could just mean that one of her many kills happens to have green eyes or blue eyes.

The best kind is Melisandre telling Arya "We'll meet [again]." That's pretty much as unambiguous as it gets (unless it's a reference to Melisandre mistaking her vision of Alys for Arya). It also means that unless Melisandre crosses a significant amount of distance--unlikely, given her location--Arya is going to make it back North before the end of the series, which is mighty encouraging. (I guess it's bad news for the Melisandre haters, since it also means Melisandre is going to live long enough for Arya to make it back North.)

...There's a fair amount of discussion about the significance of this Melisandre/Arya exchange in the relevant Season 3 episode forum, whichever it is (3x06 or 3x07, I guess).

[Señor de la Tormenta]

What about mel lerning thoros brings people back from death? Thats a hint of what may happen to Jon.

This plus lerning Garlan and Willas wont do nothing important in next books. Pluse Jayne is not pregnant were enough spoilers to tell me it is not wise to keep watching this.