was stannis meant to be likeable

[James Arryn]

Are you? Because those pieces of information stripped of context are close to meaningless.

Really? When I see Aerys criticized or described, this list would pretty much cover it. That and fingernails and the specifics of how someone was burned which, forgive me, seems an epic exercise in semantics.

Additionally, both men survived and were somewhat defined by enduring a siege, both men appointed able subordinates on ability and replaced them over personal disagreements, both reluctantly gave power to their wife's family, neither cared much about personal grooming, neither were popular with the people, both had somewhat distant relations with their children, etc.

Of course there are differences. But to overlook the sheer volume and significance of the similarities is IMO an interesting exercise in selective vision.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I have to read a few Stannis quotes every night before bed otherwise the monsters will get me

Brah, get yourself a tatoo with the mannis quotes as I did, and you wont have problems with monsters anymore.

[The Drunkard]

Really? When I see Aerys criticized or described, this list would pretty much cover it.

If you were to use that list to describe the negatives of Aerys people would fill in the missing information from what they already know. When you use that list to describe both Stannis and Aerys, the information the reader is going to fill in themselves is going to be clashing significantly, because the context of those actions is different.

Of course there are differences. But to overlook the sheer volume and significance of the similarities is IMO an interesting exercise in selective vision.

And I believe that finding extremely broad similarities between two people whilst ignoring the context and specifics behind them to be an exercise in dishonesty.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

It's not what he is underneath, but what he does that defines him.

[Sansa_Stark]

Aerys is a rapist. Stannis isn't.

[The Red Melli]

Liked, the board would be incredibly boring if everyone rooted for Targaryens/Starks

[Toxspecific]

If you don't mean to generalize and don't mean to say once you study him you're bound to like him, then stop generalizing and don't say he's 'meant' to be likeable if you 'read and analyze his character properly'. Stannis is an interesting character, don't get me wrong, but the whole hero worship and justifying his terrible actions that even HE won't admit wrong doing for is completely missing out on some of the more interesting parts of his character.

Let me explain what I quite obviously meant; he's meant to be likeable if you can analyze him. Outwardly he's grim, cold and distant. I never said you are bound to fall in love with him if you don't analyze him at all.

[James Arryn]

If you were to use that list to describe the negatives of Aerys people would fill in the missing information from what they already know. When you use that list to describe both Stannis and Aerys, the information the reader is going to fill in themselves is going to be clashing significantly, because the context of those actions is different.

And I believe that finding extremely broad similarities between two people whilst ignoring the context and specifics behind them to be an exercise in dishonesty.

Part of me rejoices at belonging to a community where things like 'burns people' and 'sees treason everywhere' are characterized as 'extremely broad' qualities.

[The Drunkard]

Part of me rejoices at belonging to a community where things like 'burns people' and 'sees treason everywhere' are characterized as 'extremely broad' qualities.

It's great how GRRM managed to create a world in which such things happen to be true.

[James Arryn]

It's great how GRRM managed to create a world in which such things happen to be true.

I admit that I have skipped the chapters filled with pyro-paranoics, but then I often skim.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I think that GRRM intended for Stannis to be a gray character with flaws and virtues. Personally, I'm not a Stannis fan whatsoever, and I'd like to think that I've analyzed his character enough, but I believe that pre-ASOS Stannis was far less likeable than post-ASOS Stannis.

[morgan1028]

*spends most of his time grumbling about how he's been wronged.

* often isolates himself.

*burns people he finds guilty of crimes or disloyalty.

*sees treason almost everywhere he looks

*cold relationship with wife, but lusts after other women.

Am I describing Aerys?

This is a joke, right? I don't believe the burning people is right for any reason. It is a cruel way to go. But to compare Stannis to Aerys.. no, you're wrong on that one. I didn't like Stannis at first either. What he did to his Maester was cruel and I've never seen him be that way since. Seems out of character now that I look back actually. I grew to like him when he got to the Wall. Before that I said to myself there has to be a reason why a man like Davos is so loyal to him. Turns out there is, he rode to save the realm. Gave up his castle and everything.

[James Arryn]

I think Stannis defies any solid footing. When I want to like him, he does pretty crappy, hypocritical stuff like shadow-babies. When I want to dislike him, he does great stuff like listening to Davos.

I have a hard time understanding people who are absolute about him. Especially the whole 'because, Stannis' rationale that usually involves capitalized words like True Rightful King, an all that.

His claim is no better than others, and gives him no more behavioural licence than others. If it's simply a matter of birthright, he should execute himself for supporting Robert over the previous True Righftful King. If personal qualities enter into it, he loses the exclusive claim his behaviour demands as justification for w/e, and his negative qualities are relevant to the discussion.

But some want it to be absolute, ie succession, but sidestep his own rejection of that priority. Usually with a well, when Stannis does (exactly what Aerys did) then we'll question his right to rule...a concession which itself defies the absolute nature of his clsim's primacy.

Eh, /rant.

[aceluby]

Let me explain what I quite obviously meant; he's meant to be likeable if you can analyze him. Outwardly he's grim, cold and distant. I never said you are bound to fall in love with him if you don't analyze him at all.

I can analyze him just fine and don't think he's meant to be likeable. He has good qualities, bad qualities, and is an interesting character, but he's a cold person with no friends, no social skills, and an inability to look at himself in the same way he looks at others. He's interesting, but not what most people would consider to be a 'likeable' character. He's the Professor Snape of Westeros.

[Toxspecific]

I can analyze him just fine and don't think he's meant to be likeable. He has good qualities, bad qualities, and is an interesting character, but he's a cold person with no friends, no social skills, and an inability to look at himself in the same way he looks at others. He's interesting, but not what most people would consider to be a 'likeable' character. He's the Professor Snape of Westeros.

True. Although I don't really agree with him being unable to look at himself the way he looks at others.

[Pwnyou]

I think people who like Stannis are/were:

- More logical and rational than emotional and empatic

- Concrete and structured people

- Not spoiled and loved by everyone when they were young, but rather was an underdog

- Honorable and righteous, conservative and hard minded

And people who dislike Stannis were probably more spoiled and loved by everyone as a child, has more social intelligence than IQ, is more creative and adventurous, does things by emotion rather than by rational thinking and are soft minded.

So in my opinion, GRRM wanted Stannis to be liked by some, and disliked by others.

[James Arryn]

I think people who like Stannis are/were:

- More logical and rational than emotional and empatic

- Concrete and structured people

- Was not spoiled and loved by everyone when they were young

- Honorable and righteous

People who were spoiled and loved by everyone as a child, has more social intelligence than IQ, is more creative and adventurous, does things by emotion rather than rational thinking and are soft minded dislike Stannis.

Some interesting psychological material here. Allow me to say it's not unlikely that you speak for many, IMO.

[A Man Has Said]

Now where the fuck is that GRRM interview.

ETA: I think this is it: 'And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.'

I guess this is the part where everybody conveniently ignores the fact that GRRM called Stannis 'a righteous man'.

No, this is the part where members of the Stannis Champions Club conveniently ignore the fact that he also says, "in spite of everything."

No-one is saying that Stannis doesn't do some righteous things, but in almost every case there's a taint to how he does it or why. For instance, he 'saves the wall' with his great cavalry moment at the end of "ASoS" but 1) he only does it as a means of gaining the throne and 2) he kills a lot of wildlings, then turns around and advocates letting the rest of the wildlings through the wall. (Mind you I don't disagree with that decision, but quite a few people in universe do.)

"In spite of everything" starts with the very first mention of Stannis in AGoT, when Bran is overhearing the conversation between Jaime and Cersei and the Kingslayer casually mentions how Stannis "gives everyone indigestion." Until we first see him in the "ACoK" prologue, all we get is second-hand impressions of him and they're all negative. A typical one is Robert's comment on him wanting to close all the brothels in KL. "..next thing you know he'll want to outlaw eating, drinking and breathing."

"In spite of everything" continues with him burning the statues of the Seven and taking part in an obvious mummer's farce to convince everyone that he's the AAR. He's not, you know. He's a fake. He's also a fake about his motives. "For the good of the realm." Don't make me laugh. It's just too funny how the good of the realm always turns out to mean nothing more or less than Stannis gaining the IT.

[Toxspecific]

I just knew people would grab at the 'inspite of everything' words desperately. LOL it doesn't change the fact that GRRM said Stannis is righteous. You can't twist it around, you can't worm your way around it, the man himself said it. In spite of everything meant that Stannis has had mistakes, flaws but overall remains a righteous man. That is what it means.

He has his flaws, but that doesn't make him a bad man. And if you honestly think he truly believes he is Azor Ahai then all I can respond to you with is a facepalm. He burned the statues of the Seven to appease the new red god he believed had definite mystical abilities that could help him take what is his. Not because he is a true red god worshipper.

He gets annoyed when people rant about the red god, he gets uneasy when Mel goes on with her bla bla Azor Ahai stuff. He knows there is a definite power she worships, but he does not worship it. He uses it as a weapon. The Azor Ahai thing he allows to fly as a way of spreading his campaign.

Iron Throne > Azor Ahai. I don't know how many years it will take people to finally realize that he gives a rat's ass about the red faith if it does not help his POLITICAL campaign. And why do you laugh when he says he wants to help the realm? What do you have to go by to accuse him of lying in this regard? Shows a pre-formed stance towards him on your part if anything else.

He doesn't desire the Throne for the money (he doesn't fancy parties), the women (he doesn't fancy whores) or the political snakes around him that he hates so much. He himself once mentioned some dream/vision of the crown burning away his flesh, remember? Of course you don't, because you want to believe that he is power hungry for a Throne he honestly doesn't seem to enjoy the idea of sitting on.

Tywin wants the Throne because he is power hungry, Robert wants it to remove the Targs. Cersei wants it because she is power hungry. Dany wants it because she wants to restore her family to the Throne. Stannis wants it to exact justice upon his enemies who he believes stole the Throne from him and acting by the law he believes in, and everybody else believes in, take his lawful place on the Throne.

[Pwnyou]

No, this is the part where members of the Stannis Champions Club conveniently ignore the fact that he also says, "in spite of everything."

No-one is saying that Stannis doesn't do some righteous things, but in almost every case there's a taint to how he does it or why. For instance, he 'saves the wall' with his great cavalry moment at the end of "ASoS" but 1) he only does it as a means of gaining the throne and 2) he kills a lot of wildlings, then turns around and advocates letting the rest of the wildlings through the wall. (Mind you I don't disagree with that decision, but quite a few people in universe do.)

"In spite of everything" starts with the very first mention of Stannis in AGoT, when Bran is overhearing the conversation between Jaime and Cersei and the Kingslayer casually mentions how Stannis "gives everyone indigestion." Until we first see him in the "ACoK" prologue, all we get is second-hand impressions of him and they're all negative. A typical one is Robert's comment on him wanting to close all the brothels in KL. "..next thing you know he'll want to outlaw eating, drinking and breathing."

"In spite of everything" continues with him burning the statues of the Seven and taking part in an obvious mummer's farce to convince everyone that he's the AAR. He's not, you know. He's a fake. He's also a fake about his motives. "For the good of the realm." Don't make me laugh. It's just too funny how the good of the realm always turns out to mean nothing more or less than Stannis gaining the IT.

Eddard Stark didn't think badly of him, and is it really a bad thing to be righteous and be disliked by people like Cercei? Ask yourself that.