assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Florina Stark,Core or not, personality traits cannot be inherited, they are not innate but acquired. :)The best we can hope for is lean built, height and temperament. :)I'm actually not sure this is the case. A lot of personality is nature, in the nature vs. nurture debate. It's not uncommon for adopted children, for example, to be more like their biological parents than their adopted ones. Genes can be powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushido Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I'm actually not sure this is the case. A lot of personality is nature, in the nature vs. nurture debate. It's not uncommon for adopted children, for example, to be more like their biological parents than their adopted ones. Genes can be powerful.Genes are powerful. But you must consider that their temperament dictates the traits they develop. You can't expect a phlegmatic person to do sports, even if they are encouraged to do so; so nature is stronger than nurture. When we say "nature" what we actually mean is "temperament", your body chemistry, hormones, brain wiring, etc. Same goes for personality traits, we mix things up - if we say Jon is just, this is an area of morality which is also acquired since it is derived from (artifical, made by people) cultural mores of society, but it is not something that is passed on by genes. You can be diligent = a personality trait; you have experience and your reaction to it, there is a choice, there is deliberate action, you act on it, etc "I am diligent because I have become diligent, because my father says so". You are not compelled to be diligent. But you are compelled to be phlegmatic. Temperament is the first layer and as such is important, and decisive in many a case. If a lot of personality traits are nature, that's because they're well integrated with one's temperament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Røyksopp Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 It is interesting.Genetics being like they are in the series, One would assume Jon to have at least a small amount of Targaryen features, but there are no physical features at all. Black hair, and a long face - we are told he looks more like a Stark than Robb.Very interesting, and I always thought it was strange to be honest. Were there any Targaryens that did not have their hair or eyes give a hint to their Targness?As far as genes go, well, I was basically Lisa Simpson. Except a guy. Seriously. So I don't put a whole lot into nature. As in, why am I great with math, while my dad and mom aren't? Neither one of my parents were extraordinary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valandui Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Florina Stark,Core or not, personality traits cannot be inherited, they are not innate but acquired. :)The best we can hope for is lean built, height and temperament. :)I'd say that temperament is a personality trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushido Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I'd say that temperament is a personality trait.Personality and temperament are observed separately. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valandui Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Personality and temperament are observed separately. :)True, but the two definitely play off of each other. Personality is influenced by temperament and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Very interesting, and I always thought it was strange to be honest. Were there any Targaryens that did not have their hair or eyes give a hint to their Targness?I think Baelor Breakspear had entirely Dornish features. Rhaegar's own daughter, Rhaenys took after her mother. Almost entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Personality and temperament are observed separately. :)With Rhaegar and Jon we're essentially talking about depression, I believe. From what I understand, depression is a mixture of nature and nurture. So Jon inherited a predisposition from Rhaegar towards a touch of depression – nature. The circumstance of being a bastard triggered that genetic predisposition – nurture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen_Rubies Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 In GoT Bran describes Jon in contrast to Robb. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast. I think we can quess and weed out what Jon gets from which parent since Robb is described as having the tully coloring, but I can't recall if his muscular appearance is contributed to the Tully side or implied to be from Ned while Jon is described as "slender, graceful, and quick" which is how, I believe, Rhaegar was described as well. Now Arya is described as a mini Lyanna and an attribute which, I can't recall either but I think, she shares with Jon is a long face. I think there's more that Jon shares with Rhaegar in terms of physical appearance it just might take comparing and contrasting Jon, his siblings, and their tully side to distinguish what the stark attributes are as well as the tully and targaryen traits to pinpoint what exactly Jon shares with Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 In GoT Bran describes Jon in contrast to Robb.I think we can quess and weed out what Jon gets from which parent since Robb is described as having the tully coloring, but I can't recall if his muscular appearance is contributed to the Tully side or implied to be from Ned while Jon is described as "slender, graceful, and quick" which is how, I believe, Rhaegar was described as well. Now Arya is described as a mini Lyanna and an attribute which, I can't recall either but I think, she shares with Jon is a long face. I think there's more that Jon shares with Rhaegar in terms of physical appearance it just might take comparing and contrasting Jon, his siblings, and their tully side to distinguish what the stark attributes are as well as the tully and targaryen traits to pinpoint what exactly Jon shares with Rhaegar.Pretty sure Bran was describing Robb as fair, graceful, and quick. Cat thinks about how much like Ned Jon looks, as in, her own boys took on Tully appearances in her eyes while Jon has a definitively Stark appearance. Physically, Jon has the appearance of a Stark according to Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night's Prince Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 We all know Jon does have genes from Rhaegar, but what if in his case he has to undergo some kind of reaction for them to surface? I'm thinking interaction with magic. This is just for physical traits which is what the OP was actually talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenerationx Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Pretty sure Bran was describing Robb as fair, graceful, and quick. Cat thinks about how much like Ned Jon looks, as in, her own boys took on Tully appearances in her eyes while Jon has a definitively Stark appearance. Physically, Jon has the appearance of a Stark according to Cat.Quite clearly no. Jon is slender, dark, graceful and quick. Rob was muscular, fair, strong and fast.Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.The way the sentence is constructed, the descriptions of Jon come first. Jon was slender; Robb was muscular. Jon was dark, Robb was fair. Jon was graceful and quick, Rob was strong and fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I think Jon is basically supposed to be like Rhaegar but with the Stark look and upbringing. I think thats what GRRM is trying to tell us only very subtlely. Of course, hes got plenty of Lyanna in him. Hurr. Thats where the look comes from. Cat's observation is that Jon looks so much Stark, its kind of a slap in the face. Robb has more of Ned's personality traits. Unbending honor, calm collected demeanor, etc. Arya is Lyanna's mini-me with the whole look and the impulsiveness and tomboyishness. Sansa is very much like Cat in appearance and values but has a LOT of Ned in her too. Bran is a good blend of Ned and Cat. Rickon...hard to say.(In Arya's and Jon's case, its possible to look a lot like a relative that isnt your parents. Jon looks like Ned who's sister is Jon's mum. I have a granduncle who i share a massive amount of physical traits with.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenerationx Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Was there ever a description of Rhaegar's build?I'm finding it a bit odd that many of us have similar ideas of what Rhaegar looked like (with the exception of the poster who said they thought he was, like all Targs, stocky and muscular, which to me is totally bizarre because I have never once considered them that way), yet no one has yet been able to offer up a textual description of him.Here are two things we can potentially get an idea from, though they're not direct descriptions of Rhaegar himself:Dany's vision from HotU:The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.Problem is, Dany's never seen Rhaegar. So can her vision of him be trusted?Then there's this from Cersei:Aurane Waters. It was not the first time the queen had made note of Waters, a lean young man with grey green eyes and long silver-gold hair. The first time she had seen him, for half a heartbeat she had almost thought Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the ashes. It is his hair, she told herself. He is not half as comely as Rhaegar was. His face is too narrow, and he has that cleft in his chin.She mistakes Aurane for Rhaegar for a second, and he's described as lean. Therefore I think we can take from that that Rhaegar was lean. If he'd been stocky, I doubt she would have, at first glance, thought it was him. Also, from this, we can conclude that Rhaegar's face wasn't narrow (or at least not as narrow as this guy's), and didn't have a cleft in his chin.I'm sure there must be other descriptions of Rhaegar from the text...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night's Prince Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Florina I wouldn't go that far and add unbending honor to the list for Robb. It definitely bent, well penetrated rather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Problem is, Dany's never seen Rhaegar. So can her vision of him be trusted?Given Dany's initial confusion of the identity of that man, i think it can be trusted.Florina I wouldn't go that far and add unbending honor to the list for Robb. It definitely bent, well penetrated rather.Which he did for the sake of the honor of another person. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night's Prince Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Given Dany's initial confusion of the identity of that man, i think it can be trusted.Which he did for the sake of the honor of another person. Hmmm.The honor of whom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Do you not remember Robb marrying Jeyne for the sake of keeping her honor intact? Or did your copy of ASoS have that part omitted somehow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanTheBold Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Like was already discussed in this thread, genetics play a big role in personality traits. Meaning, even if he was raised by Ned, Jon should still exhibit at least some of his parents' personality/behavioral traits. Which I think he does — personality-wise, he's quite a bit like Rhaegar.Gentics don't play a big role in your personality other than a genetic tendency to chemical imbalances but its not like your dad or moms nice person or funny person genes exist things like that are learned. I'll give you and example if your grew up in Sparta and were a man your would in general have a harder more confrontational personality and that would come ftom society nothing else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night's Prince Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Do you not remember Robb marrying Jeyne for the sake of keeping her honor intact? Or did your copy of ASoS have that part omitted somehow?No, but I guess I missed the part where Robb didn't willingly fornicate with Jeyne. I suppose she tied him down and raped him so he had no choice but to marry her. For honor. You really can't justify this. Sorry. Unbending honor means not forgetting oaths made to Lords, then breaking them in a night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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