Cersei Lannister and the more beautiful queen.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

But the only way for Cersei to stop being the queen (which is, y'know, what the whole prophecy is actually about) is if someone ends/replaces the Baratheon dynasty. She will always be the queen dowager as long as House Baratheon is still the ruling family.

No, not the only way. A monarch can be deposed. Removing a monarch doesn't always automatically mean replacement by a new monarch. You are conflating a two-step process into one step.

Step 1: Remove the monarch.

Step 2: Crown a new monarch.

It does not follow automatically that a new monarch replaces the old one. That is what happens most often, but it is not a given that it will happen that way.

King Charles I of England was deposed and replaced by - nobody (for 11 years at least). King Louis XVI of France was deposed and replaced by - nobody (for around 9 years). There are other examples.

There is also execution or divorce for removing queens (and divorced queens are not always executed automatically; sometimes they just live at court like Anne of Cleves).

(And yes, I know what the whole prophecy is about so there is no need to be snide.)

edited to change Louis XIV to Louis XVI, an unpardonable error on my part *mea culpa*

[PatrickStormborn]

No, not the only way. A monarch can be deposed. Removing a monarch doesn't always automatically mean replacement by a new monarch. You are conflating a two-step process into one step.

Step 1: Remove the monarch.

Step 2: Crown a new monarch.

It does not follow automatically that a new monarch replaces the old one. That is what happens most often, but it is not a given that it will happen that way.

King Charles I of England was deposed and replaced by - nobody (for 11 years at least). King Louis XIV of France was deposed and replaced by - nobody (for around 9 years). There are other examples.

There is also execution or divorce for removing queens (and divorced queens are not always executed automatically; sometimes they just live at court like Anne of Cleves).

(And yes, I know what the whole prophecy is about so there is no need to be snide.)

Within the context of the prophecy, the solution that makes the most sense is that a Queen replaces House Baratheon as the ruling family. But let's look at the other solutions:

• House Baratheon is removed as the ruling dynasty, but no one replaces them. In this scenario, who is the "another, younger and more beautiful" who casts Cersei down? And seriously, who in this series is going to end a dynasty and not put another ruler in place??
  
• Cersei's marriage to Robert is annulled (or whatever). In this case it would presumably be the High Sparrow who ends Cersei's reign as queen dowager, not someone "younger and more beautiful". Moreover, she would still be the queen mother.
  
• Tommen and Myrcella's legitimacy is called into question, meaning Cersei is no longer the queen mother. However, she is still the queen dowager, unless her marriage to Robert is also ended.
  
• Cersei is executed. However, this would not be due to "another, younger and more beautiful", and presumably Cersei will be killed by the valonqar, not executed.
  

For these reasons, I can't help but think that a younger and more beautiful queen replacing the Baratheon dynasty makes the most sense.

And, most importantly IMO, the wording of the prophecy implies that the person who casts Cersei down will be a queen who replaces her. "Queen you shall be... until there comes another..."

[Ingelheim]

Within the context of the prophecy, the solution that makes the most sense is that a Queen replaces House Baratheon as the ruling family. But let's look at the other solutions:

• House Baratheon is removed as the ruling dynasty, but no one replaces them. In this scenario, who is the "another, younger and more beautiful" who casts Cersei down? And seriously, who in this series is going to end a dynasty and not put another ruler in place??
  
• Cersei's marriage to Robert is annulled (or whatever). In this case it would presumably be the High Sparrow who ends Cersei's reign as queen dowager, not someone "younger and more beautiful". Moreover, she would still be the queen mother.
  
• Tommen and Myrcella's legitimacy is called into question, meaning Cersei is no longer the queen mother. However, she is still the queen dowager, unless her marriage to Robert is also ended.
  
• Cersei is executed. However, this would not be due to "another, younger and more beautiful", and presumably Cersei will be killed by the valonqar, not executed.
  

For these reasons, I can't help but think that a younger and more beautiful queen replacing the Baratheon dynasty makes the most sense.

And, most importantly IMO, the wording of the prophecy implies that the person who casts Cersei down will be a queen who replaces her. "Queen you shall be... until there comes another..."

Well, it would be Daenerys the one who removes Baratheon dinasty and Cersei as the Queen, if you're asking that.

But yes, I don't think so. Cersei's power is already gone. If she dies in the trial, then the "another" would be Margaery. And if she doesn't, there are only three options: herself, Sansa, or Daenerys.

I would love to see Myrcella as the more beautiful and younger woman :drool:

[Faint]

Here is one vote for Brienne of Tarth.

Too many are wedded to a reading of the prophecy that the "younger and more beautiful" woman to cast Cersei down will be a queen, when that is only one possible reading of the prophecy. And even those that are not convinced of that point, seem to only consider the idea that the prophecy is referencing physical beauty. To be fair, I imagine this is the impression the author wanted to create; to lull his readers into the easy complacency of assuming the only possible candidates for fulfilling the prophecy are Daenerys, Sansa or Margaery.

Meanwhile, the one woman who is replacing Cersei in the heart of the person Cersei holds most dear besides herself is largely ignored.

[Pikachu101]

The only need to take from Cersei what she holds dear at that moment. Otherwise there can't possibly be a Younger Queen, because none of them took Joanna or Tywin away from her, and she held them dear.

Sansa was indirectly involved in Joffrey's death, Jaime's decided to save her instead of Cersei, there's poetic justice in it being her, she's learning how to play the game Cersei takes so much pride in and through her Cersei would realise she caused her own downfall.

I'd much rather the queen was someone who has a personal vendetta against Cersei, not someone who doesn't even think about her.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Within the context of the prophecy, the solution that makes the most sense is that a Queen replaces House Baratheon as the ruling family. But let's look at the other solutions:

<snipped the other solutions>

And, most importantly IMO, the wording of the prophecy implies that the person who casts Cersei down will be a queen who replaces her. "Queen you shall be... until there comes another..."

I agree that it may make sense that another Queen might replace House Baratheon as the ruling family. But that is an interpretation that is not a part Maggy's prophecy, neither explicity nor implicitly. The prophecy only says that Cersei will have all she holds dear taken from her and be cast down. There is nothing whatever as to the method of the taking of those dear things, what those dear things even are exactly, nor the later disposition of the crown after the prophecy is fulfilled (if it ever is). It doesn't even really say that Cersei will lose her queenship as a part of the taking from and casting down.

I also agree that the person who casts Cersei down being another Queen is a reasonable interpretation. Where I disagree is that it is the only possible interpretation. That the taker-downer is simply another person who isn't necessarily a Queen is also a reasonable interpretation of the words.

Prophecies are very tricky things. Anyone who decides that a prophecy must mean "only this thing" and can't possibly mean "that other thing" is walking on very thin ice. We are seeing this happen with Cersei in her determination that Margaery is the only person who is a threat to her in terms of the prophecy. If it's actually someone else who will end up fulfilling the forecast, she'll be blindsided because she was looking at and preparing for "only this thing" and never even saw or considered "that other thing".

It's the Jurassic Park effect.

[PatrickStormborn]

I agree that it may make sense that another Queen might replace House Baratheon as the ruling family. But that is an interpretation that is not a part Maggy's prophecy, neither explicity nor implicitly. The prophecy only says that Cersei will have all she holds dear taken from her and be cast down. There is nothing whatever as to the method of the taking of those dear things, what those dear things even are exactly, nor the later disposition of the crown after the prophecy is fulfilled (if it ever is). It doesn't even really say that Cersei will lose her queenship as a part of the taking from and casting down.

I also agree that the person who casts Cersei down being another Queen is a reasonable interpretation. Where I disagree is that it is the only possible interpretation. That the taker-downer is simply another person who isn't necessarily a Queen is also a reasonable interpretation of the words.

Prophecies are very tricky things. Anyone who decides that a prophecy must mean "only this thing" and can't possibly mean "that other thing" is walking on very thin ice. We are seeing this happen with Cersei in her determination that Margaery is the only person who is a threat to her in terms of the prophecy. If it's actually someone else who will end up fulfilling the forecast, she'll be blindsided because she was looking at and preparing for "only this thing" and never even saw or considered "that other thing".

It's the Jurassic Park effect.

It isn't just about Cersei getting cast down and having what she holds dear taken away from her. Cersei asks if she will be queen; Maggy the Frog replies that yes, she will be queen... until someone else comes along.

So the prophecy is all about Cersei losing her queenship.

[Juli]

I really like the idea of it being Arya.....who looks so like Lyanna, who stole the prince she wanted Rhaeger, and the prince she got Robert

[The Ned's Little Girl]

It isn't just about Cersei getting cast down and having what she holds dear taken away from her. Cersei asks if she will be queen; Maggy the Frog replies that yes, she will be queen... until someone else comes along.

So the prophecy is all about Cersei losing her queenship.

Sorry, but that is flat-out wrong.

Here are the words as Cersei remembers them.

"Queen you shall be ... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold most dear."

It is just about being cast down and having what she holds dear being taken from her. That is all it says; nothing else.

[PatrickStormborn]

Sorry, but that is flat-out wrong.

Here are the words as Cersei remembers them.

"Queen you shall be ... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold most dear."

It is just about being cast down and having what she holds dear being taken from her. That is all it says; nothing else.

We'll have to agree to disagree. What I see is Cersei asking if she'll be queen, and Maggy the Frog saying "yeah, but only until this happens." :dunno: She's going to be "cast ... down" from queenship.

[ThisSeriesWillKillMe]

No offense, but I don't think House Baratheon really matters. Throughout the books, Cersei's shown herself to be a Lannister queen through and through, when Joffrey was king the Lannisters effectively were the ruling house. As for the "take all you hold dear" Cersei seems to value her power, life, and children over Jaime. In that case, Tommen would either be killed or exiled, while the "younger and more beautiful Queen" strips Cersei of her power and (indirectly or not) ends her life.

[Archibald Big Man]

Here is one vote for Brienne of Tarth.

Too many are wedded to a reading of the prophecy that the "younger and more beautiful" woman to cast Cersei down will be a queen, when that is only one possible reading of the prophecy. And even those that are not convinced of that point, seem to only consider the idea that the prophecy is referencing physical beauty. To be fair, I imagine this is the impression the author wanted to create; to lull his readers into the easy complacency of assuming the only possible candidates for fulfilling the prophecy are Daenerys, Sansa and Margaery.

Meanwhile, the one woman who is replacing Cersei in the heart of the person Cersei holds most dear besides herself is largely ignored.

Interesting opinion there. But she loves her children more than Jaime I believe.

[Red Tiger]

Sansa, soon to be ruler of the Vale

[Joshua Ozersky]

It's made clear multiple times in the book, that Daenerys is considered the most beautiful woman in the world It's

also made clear that Margery Tyrell is not as beautiful as Cersei. Sansa may or may not be as beautiful, but she

is not queen material. It has to be Daenerys. Cersei is wrong about the valonqar, wrong about Margery, wrong

about everything.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's made clear multiple times in the book, that Daenerys is considered the most beautiful woman in the world It's

also made clear that Margery Tyrell is not as beautiful as Cersei. Sansa may or may not be as beautiful, but she

is not queen material. It has to be Daenerys. Cersei is wrong about the valonqar, wrong about Margery, wrong

about everything.

The audience is led to believe it's Dany and Cersei thinks it's Margaery, so it will be neither.

Dany also has absolutely no real personal connection to Cersei, which the prophecy implies the "younger, more beautiful" person will have.

ETA: And Sansa is most certainly queen material. In any case, the fact that it has to be a "queen" is never specified, so that's kind of moot.

[Mladen]

It's made clear multiple times in the book, that Daenerys is considered the most beautiful woman in the world It's

also made clear that Margery Tyrell is not as beautiful as Cersei. Sansa may or may not be as beautiful, but she

is not queen material. It has to be Daenerys. Cersei is wrong about the valonqar, wrong about Margery, wrong

about everything.

Of all the mentioned ladies, Sansa is the best Queen material...

[Ruby Chevrolet]

As for those, it could be that "beautiful" isn't referring to physical beauty...

The "an Other" theory is interesting too...

The "an Other" theory is a good one. It's what I thought the first time I read the prophecy. "Another queen" might be too obvious for a prophecy in Mr. Martin's world.

[Vinterdvala]

Cersei is a member of the Royal family. His first oath as a kingsgaurd would be to protect her.

But like he said, whats an oath worth? "They make you swear and swear, one contradicts the other" (paraphrase)

But, as Barristan Selmy points out in his POV in aDwD, the kings guard vows only to protect the king. The other members of the royal family are entitled to the protection of the kings guard only if the king chooses to extend the protection over them. So, Jaime's oath is to protect the king, not Cersei.

I haven't actually paid that much attention to the Maggi the Frogs prophecy. There will always be someone prettier and younger, if you care about that kind of thing, and I've always perceived this prophecy to exist in the story mainly to propel Cersei further into madness.

If it has to be one specific character, I vote for Sansa. I like the idea of Brienne the Beauty being the one, but I can't actually see it happening in the story.

[Wouter]

It's made clear multiple times in the book, that Daenerys is considered the most beautiful woman in the world It's

also made clear that Margery Tyrell is not as beautiful as Cersei.

That's not made clear at all! To the contrary, the books show that Cersei is putting on weight and her beauty is starting to fade. She acknowledges this at the walk of shame.

That one of the Kettleblacks told her he preferred Cersei to Margaery is very likely only empty flattery. Tyrion, a more objective judge in this case, considered Margaery to be a lovely girl.

[Faint]

Interesting opinion there. But she loves her children more than Jaime I believe.

I wonder about that. They certainly occupy very little of her thoughts, when you consider her chapters from the last two books.