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R+L=J v.60


Angalin

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Would 't you agree that the real issue in figuring out what Hightower and the other KG were doing is not whether Aegon was really dead but whether the 3 KG believed that Aegon was dead?

If you agree with that, then I think you have to agree that there is not textual evidence either way. The dialogue with Ned shows they knew what happened to Aerys and Rhaegar. They also knew where Rhaella and Viserys were. But there is no "textual evidence" that they had any belief one way or another where Aegon was.

If you agree with that, then we are just talking about what inferences can be drawn from other things we know, and the best you can do is say what you think is more or less likely based on incomplete information.

Personally, I think GRRM left Aegon's name out of the TOJ dialogue intentionally because he planned all along for "Young Griff" to appear. What GRRM intends to do with this remains to be seen.

No. Rhaegar is never mentioned during the whole exchange. They apparently knew about the battle at the Trident and they knew about the Sack, so if they know and they never enquire about the fate of both Rhaegar and Aegon, the logical conclusion is that that they know that both are dead.

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No. I've answered this before. And, honestly, it's pretty annoying that you ask people to repeat the same arguments over and over.

My apologies if I have misunderstood you or missed one of your posts on this. I haven't seen anyone (including you) disagree with this point, which seems to me to be self-evident. I brought it up because I didn't want the new poster to mistakenly believe that there is any direct evidence that the KG believed that Aegon was dead.

For the folks raising this now, there is obviously a disagreement over whether the KG had received information about Aegon, but that is based on inferences/incomplete information rather than direct evidence. I believe the prevailing argument that they knew is that one messenger brought news of Aerys' death and the supposed death of Aegon at the same time. The counter argument is that news of Aerys death was known immediately (Ned got to the throne room while the body was still there) but news of Aegon's death was several days later (Ned did not find out until after Robert got to KL) so if the KG knew about Aegon there needed to be two different messengers. It's up to the individual reader to decide which is more likely, I suppose.

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No. Rhaegar is never mentioned during the whole exchange. They apparently knew about the battle at the Trident and they knew about the Sack, so if they know and they never enquire about the fate of both Rhaegar and Aegon, the logical conclusion is that that they know that both are dead.

I stand corrected.

There is direct evidence they know Aerys is dead.

There is direct evidence they know about the Trident.

I infer they knew Rhaegar is dead, because anyone bringing news of the Trident would probably know that.

I infer that they may not have known what supposedly happened to Aegon because a messenger leaving KL with news of Aerys death might not have known about Aegon, depending on how long after Aerys death the messenger left. Of course, reasonable people can disagree about this last one, which is the one that matters, and this was discussed pretty thoroughly in version 39 of the R+L=J thread.

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I think all the ancient Starks warged direwolves - hence the reason they have them in the statues.

I think that Starks need direwolves to awaken their warging abilities, especially just pups.

I think it is pretty clear that both Rob and Rickon warged their wolves - perhaps unconsciously. Robb seems to have used Grey wind to find hidden paths and must have had some strong connection. Rickon is not in control of his wolf which is dangerous

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I think all the ancient Starks warged direwolves - hence the reason they have them in the statues.

I think that Starks need direwolves to awaken their warging abilities, especially just pups.

I think it is pretty clear that both Rob and Rickon warged their wolves - perhaps unconsciously. Robb seems to have used Grey wind to find hidden paths and must have had some strong connection. Rickon is not in control of his wolf which is dangerous

It just occurred to me while I was reading the warging posts that if some of the old speculation about past Targ/Stark marriages is true, Rhaegar would be part Stark and Jon would have more Stark blood than Robb, Sansa, etc.

In that case -- if there was one far enough back -- Bloodraven could be part Stark too.

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No. Rhaegar is never mentioned during the whole exchange. They apparently knew about the battle at the Trident and they knew about the Sack, so if they know and they never enquire about the fate of both Rhaegar and Aegon, the logical conclusion is that that they know that both are dead.

No. Rhaegar is never mentioned during the whole exchange. They apparently knew about the battle at the Trident and they knew about the Sack, so if they know and they never enquire about the fate of both Rhaegar and Aegon, the logical conclusion is that that they know that both are dead.

Just don't underestimate the schemes of Varys

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No. Rhaegar is never mentioned during the whole exchange. They apparently knew about the battle at the Trident and they knew about the Sack, so if they know and they never enquire about the fate of both Rhaegar and Aegon, the logical conclusion is that that they know that both are dead.

Yes. As was mentioned before, the conversation is really about places, not really people. Aegon is covered in the King's Landing inquiry.

And I pointed out in the last thread that it's in Ned's interest not to broach the Aegon subject at all: if you want access to a Targ baby, maybe don't bring up the other Targ babies who were killed. Rhaenys isn't mentioned, either.

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The counter argument is that news of Aerys death was known immediately (Ned got to the throne room while the body was still there) but news of Aegon's death was several days later (Ned did not find out until after Robert got to KL) so if the KG knew about Aegon there needed to be two different messengers.

Please give us textual evidence that Robert arrives more than an hour or two behind Ned. The text reads that everything occurred in a rather hurried fashion, no days involved, but more like hours.
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I stand corrected.

There is direct evidence they know Aerys is dead.

There is direct evidence they know about the Trident.

I infer they knew Rhaegar is dead, because anyone bringing news of the Trident would probably know that.

I infer that they may not have known what supposedly happened to Aegon because a messenger leaving KL with news of Aerys death might not have known about Aegon, depending on how long after Aerys death the messenger left. Of course, reasonable people can disagree about this last one, which is the one that matters, and this was discussed pretty thoroughly in version 39 of the R+L=J thread.

They knew about Aegon's death, it is inferred with the phrase "Prince Viserys."
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At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and stick to it. Aegon being fake is one of my lines. And I don't think it's that obvious -- most readers probably DO think he's Aegon. I highly doubt that many of them have picked up on, say, the dragon sign imagery, or really put thought into what the Golden Company contract-breaking really means.

GRRM has already given us all we need to figure out it's not really Aegon. It's just a matter of people being able to put it together.

The same is true about Rhaegar and Lyanna (Jon), but here we are, still dealing with burnt hands, dark hair, un-purple eyes, warging, fishwives, Wylla, Ashara, and someone smuggling Aegon to the tower. Foolishness.
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They knew about Aegon's death, it is inferred with the phrase "Prince Viserys."

Yeah I see absolutely no reason for them to know about Aerys's death but not Aegon's. I imagine that they learned of all three male Targ deaths at the same time and from the same person. (Going on the idea that if they heard about Rhaegar's death before the Sack, at least one probably would have made for the capital.)

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Hello All,

I've been lurking these past few months and have decided to take the plunge!

A few pages ago the was a debate wrt the three headed dragon and whether it pertained to three individuals or one person with three identities. The SSM brought up about "the third head not having to be a Targ" confuses me because if I remember rightly (which I hope I am, less I make a plonk of myself) is that this interview was done back in 2000. Now, the bit I am confused over is that at this point in time, there is only one known Targ - Dany. I'm guessing that whoever asked Martin about the third head worked under the assumption that the THD=three people, therefore counted Jon as the second head, so went straight for information on the third.

But if is the case, GRRM may have been clever in his answer as I don't believe Jon's parentage will be revealed - even ambiguously - in a public interview. So per his answer, the third head doesn't have to be a Targ... but neither does the second head - of course this may be easier to work out if we knew the wording of the question that George answered. So from this, it's still entirely possible that the THD=One person/three aspects - more specifically Jon(my favourite interpretation)

Sorry if this aspect has been covered before - or if it even belongs in this thread for that matter. Anyway, back to lurking I go :laugh:

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Please give us textual evidence that Robert arrives more than an hour or two behind Ned. The text reads that everything occurred in a rather hurried fashion, no days involved, but more like hours.

No one brought this up last time so I thought it was generally agreed. Anyway, I don't think it says explicitly that Robert arrived a day or a few days after Ned. It appears that Robert arrived a few days later for a couple of reasons.

After the Trident, Ned took the vanguard to pursue what was left of Rhaegar's army back to KL. Robert stayed behind because he was wounded and he took the time to have his own Maester treat Barristan's wounds before he treated Robert's. I infer from this that Ned left immediately after the battle and Robert left at least a day later. I also infer that Ned took the cavalry, so he moved fast, and Robert came with the infantry, so it took Robert longer in travel time.

Then, Ned says he left KL for Storm's End the very day Tywin presented the (supposed) body of Aegon to Robert. I believe that it is unlikely that Ned rode into KL from the Trident, helped mop up from the Sack, and led a large army out of KL all in the same day. So infer that the day Aerys died and the day Aegon's supposed death became known were two different days and that there were almost certainly several intervening days.

So that's it. On the front end, Ned left the Trident before Robert and traveled more quickly. On the back end, Ned spent at least one night in KL after the Sack and before he marched his men to Storm's End. The news of Aerys death was therefore at minimum one day and probably several days ahead of the news of Aegon's death and if the Aegon news got to the TOJ before Ned got there there must have been two different messengers -- the first leaving KL immediately on the death of Aerys and a second one leaving a day or several days later with the news about Aegon.

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Just don't underestimate the schemes of Varys

Not really sure what the KG knowledge or lack thereof has to do with Varys, but either way, he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. He never found Arya, never knew about LF's scheming to poison Joffrey and get out Sansa.

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Not really sure what the KG knowledge or lack thereof has to do with Varys, but either way, he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. He never found Arya, never knew about LF's scheming to poison Joffrey and get out Sansa.

And he also doesn't know about Jon. Varys is good but he is not God and he does not know everything. I wish more people understood that.

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And he also doesn't know about Jon. Varys is good but he is not God and he does not know everything. I wish more people understood that.

Which is why I brought up the omniscient and omnipotent part :-)

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And he also doesn't know about Jon. Varys is good but he is not God and he does not know everything. I wish more people understood that.

Agreed, and, if the Blackfyre theory or just the YG being a fake theory in general is indeed correct, then there's actually no way in hell Varys knows about Jon or he would've most likely attempted to eliminate him at some point prior to ADWD, in order to clear the way for Faegon. Varys wouldn't want an actual male heir of Rhaegar that could possibly challenge Faegon's claim alive and well in Westeros.

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Agreed, and, if the Blackfyre theory or just the YG being a fake theory in general is indeed correct, then there's actually no way in hell Varys knows about Jon or he would've most likely attempted to eliminate him at some point prior to ADWD, in order to clear the way for Faegon. Varys wouldn't want an actual male heir of Rhaegar that could possibly challenge Faegon's claim alive and well in Westeros.

Exactly! Also, as I've said before, it makes for a much better story!

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