Redshirts wins Hugo for Best Novel

[Datepalm]

Certainly seems dumb - without pointing fingers at either party - to schedule the things on the same weekend.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Wert -- you forgot the part about Dragoncon still paying $150,000/year to a convicted child rapist, rather than dissolving and re-incorporating (because then they'd lose money). Sounds like a lot of fun to me!

The fact of the matter is: most of the BWB go to Worldcon because GRRM is there, and because our friends are there. If a GRRM-enhanced WC didn't exist, I wouldn't then opt to go to Dragoncon. I'd go on a real vacation instead, far away from people who wear the same sweaty lycra outfit for 4 days running. YMMV, etc etc.

[Werthead]

Wert -- you forgot the part about Dragoncon still paying $150,000/year to a convicted child rapist, rather than dissolving and re-incorporating (because then they'd lose money). Sounds like a lot of fun to me!

I'd heard of that, but didn't realise that was Dragoncon. Really? Seems like the sort of thing that would cause a huge furore every year.

The fact of the matter is: most of the BWB go to Worldcon because GRRM is there, and because our friends are there. If a GRRM-enhanced WC didn't exist, I wouldn't then opt to go to Dragoncon. I'd go on a real vacation instead, far away from people who wear the same sweaty lycra outfit for 4 days running.

I agree, and that's also part of the problem. GRRM and Gaiman seem to be two authors actively working hard at encouraging younger people to go to Worldcon, but what young audience Worldcon gets at the moment seems to be down to those authors (and maybe a few others) and people going to hang out with them. If they didn't work hard at it, Worldcon likely wouldn't have many people there at all under 40 (?), certainly not taking part in the Hugos and other things.

Broadening the audience of Worldcon seems to be something needed to ensure its long-term survival (which includes avoiding clashing with cons that appeal to similar demographics), but also something that organisers don't want to do because they'd risk the con getting too big. That seems part of the problem - the same, older audience voting in the Hugos year-in, year-out - to me.

Given the number of BwBers who do seem invested in helping Worldcon and the Hugos improve, that does lead to an interesting question: if GRRM stopped going every year, would a lot of them/us even bother?

[Xray the Enforcer]

To answer your last question: no. Most would not bother. Some would (I would say that we have 20 or so who are sufficiently interested in WC that they'd stick around, which is a fairly high percentage for a relatively small fan group), but most would go back to their lives pre-BWB. And that's OK.

To address the issue of enticing younger audiences: That is being addressed head-on by LonCon3 and Spokane. They are actively building a literary YA track in London, and I've seen indications that Spokane will do the same. That will make WorldCon a welcoming place for those younger fans who would prefer to hit up a convention focused mostly on books and writing (and there are a lot of those individuals -- one does not have to become Dragoncon lite in order to appeal to a younger demographic, because many younger fans aren't necessarily cosplayers or even serious gamers). It will take time to build momentum, probably at least five years, but it's something worth trying.

Re: DragonCon. It's out there, and some people are boycotting because of it. But most attendees just don't want to know, or brush it off, or rationalize it away because money.

[Seli]

As of earlier this year Dragoncon has actually broken the ties with that problematic individual. Of course in exchange for a nice bunch of cash.

Dragoncon is of course only one of the other conventions and convention-concepts competing with Worldcon.

http://www.locusmag....on-from-kramer/

http://www.themarysu...parates-kramer/

After a drawn out, public debacle, Dragon*Con has announced they have finally managed to divorce themselves from accused molester Edward Kramer.

We previously reported on the story of Kramer, a Dragon*Con co-founder accused of child-molestation who has been using health issues to avoid going to court since his initial arrest in 2000. Although he was no longer involved with the convention, he was getting compensation for his holdings ($154,000 in 2011).

<snip>

UPDATE: We were asked to clarify this situation and recieved this statement from Greg Euston of McGraw Euston Associates. He wrote:

In this merger, Dragon Con, Inc., replaces the old company, Dragon*Con/ACE Inc. Pat Henry and four other shareholders exchanged their shares in the old company for 100 percent of the shares in the new company. Ed Kramer, the remaining minority shareholder in the old company, was cashed out. Dragon*Con/ACE Inc. no longer exists.

As a consequence of this merger, Mr. Kramer no longer has any interest, financial or otherwise, in Dragon Con.

[Xray the Enforcer]

That doesn't quite erase the 13 years of sweeping their ties with that dude under the rug (and make no mistake -- they covered that shit up for years because god forbid something like that would hurt their profits). But I'm glad that they're free of it. Still not interested in ever going to DragonCon.

[Shryke]

To answer your last question: no. Most would not bother. Some would (I would say that we have 20 or so who are sufficiently interested in WC that they'd stick around, which is a fairly high percentage for a relatively small fan group), but most would go back to their lives pre-BWB. And that's OK.

To address the issue of enticing younger audiences: That is being addressed head-on by LonCon3 and Spokane. They are actively building a literary YA track in London, and I've seen indications that Spokane will do the same. That will make WorldCon a welcoming place for those younger fans who would prefer to hit up a convention focused mostly on books and writing (and there are a lot of those individuals -- one does not have to become Dragoncon lite in order to appeal to a younger demographic, because many younger fans aren't necessarily cosplayers or even serious gamers). It will take time to build momentum, probably at least five years, but it's something worth trying.

I think the scheduling thing is a real issue, but I'd also agree with this part. It would seem kind strange to want to attract more members to Worldcon by changing what it's about. You don't need anime and cosplay to attract younger people. (although the people willing to go to a con who are also into those things is probably larger then the alternative set)

[Seli]

That doesn't quite erase the 13 years of sweeping their ties with that dude under the rug (and make no mistake -- they covered that shit up for years because god forbid something like that would hurt their profits). But I'm glad that they're free of it. Still not interested in ever going to DragonCon.

Yes, fully agree.

For me the likelyhood of me ever visiting dragoncon, or any of the big mediacons is quite low to start with. But mostly because they look both energy draining and out of my comfort zone.

[Parris]

I'd like to point out that the WorldCon, when held in the USA, has traditionally been held on Labor Day for decades before D*C was created. We called dibs.

There are countless reasons for the choice of dates for a USA WorldCon - it's a long holiday weekend and we don't get a lot of these 3 day weekends in workaholic America.

Another reason is that while 40 years ago there were more choices of hotels for WorldCon than there are now since so many independent hotels have be taken over by big corporations. This gives us less leeway in dealing for hotel and convention space and services.

Costs have spiraled and there's little control over how a concom can cut more costs. Labor Day in most of the USA will give us cheaper rates than any other weekend in the summer.

Function space costs money, Ops costs money, the space and the chairs and the water stations in rooms all cost money. How do we find that sort of cash? Do we raise membership prices even more? Do we cut the con down to four or even three days?

[Ebenstone]

I've always wanted to go to either of these events as a fan (especially to actually meet some of y'all that I've known going on 12 years now) and hope that some day I'll go there as a writer...but the weekend is just terrible for me. I'm a teacher and I usually have loads going on right before and definitely right afterwards. The fact that there is some attention being paid to YA makes me wonder if I'm going to give it a go someday soon.

[Maia]

Between this and Among Others thats a pretty ridiculous level of navel gazing.

So, it is hip to hate "Among Others" now? Because I read it a couple of months ago and really loved it... The only thing of Skalzi's I read was "Old Man's War" and it didn't inspire me to follow any more of his work. It is a shame that Banks never won a Hugo, though, as he was one of the few SF writers who managed to combine great ideas with great writing, IMHO.

Mieville's "Embassytown" was never nominated either?! Wow. The Hugo-voting crowd is no longer particularly interested in original SF-nal ideas, it seems.

The Emperor Soul was, IMHO, very good - easily the best thing Sanderson ever wrote.

Couldn't agree more. I didn't read the competition, but there is no shame it having it win, it is good. And I am very cognizant of Sanderson's usual weaknesses.

[Brendan Moody]

Mieville's "Embassytown" was never nominated either?!

No, it was nominated. It lost to Among Others. That's the point: at the Hugos, cuddly fan nostalgia trumps original SF-nal ideas. (To the extent that Embassytown's ideas were original.)

[mormont]

No, it was nominated. It lost to Among Others. That's the point: at the Hugos, cuddly fan nostalgia trumps original SF-nal ideas. (To the extent that Embassytown's ideas were original.)

Well, you say that - but of course The City and The City jointly won a Hugo, with The Windup Girl, itself replete with some pretty original SF-nal ideas.

That's the thing about the Hugo: for every award it gets spectacularly wrong, there's another one it gets more or less right. If it was wrong all the time, nobody would care. It would already have dwindled into insignificance, instead of teetering on the edge.

[gougef]

No, it was nominated. It lost to Among Others. That's the point: at the Hugos, cuddly fan nostalgia trumps original SF-nal ideas. (To the extent that Embassytown's ideas were original.)

To each their own, but I couldn't finish Among Others. Felt I was in some kind of hallucinogenic trip. Probably keep me from buying any more Hugo winners. I think it had to do with expectations than anything. Expecting scifi, got fantasy?

[Brendan Moody]

Well, you say that - but of course The City and The City jointly won a Hugo, with The Windup Girl, itself replete with some pretty original SF-nal ideas.

Were there any cuddly fan nostalgia nominees that year?

Actually, I think Miéville, whose work I do enjoy, is as much part of the Hugo "problem" as a solution to it-- he seems to be a slightly younger, hipper bloc's reflexive choice, even with subpar work like Kraken, which was 6 votes away from a nomination in 2011.

[mormont]

Were there any cuddly fan nostalgia nominees that year?

That year? Not really, but most years there isn't anything nearly as fan-nostalgic as Among Others. You can make a case for The Graveyard Book being a nostalgia choice as well, and I would possibly also put Scalzi's previous nominations in that box, since Old Man's War struck me as pure Heinlein-nostalgia. In which case you'd have to note that they lost.

And of course GRRM has never won the big one, despite being very popular with the WorldCon crowd... but the wild card there is the fantasy/SF problem.

[Brendan Moody]

That was a joke, actually; I don't mean to suggest that the Hugos are uniformly bad, or that original ideas never get a look-in. And while nominations for trifles that congratulate the in-crowd are a problem, the bigger issue is clearly voting for names or bodies of work rather than nominees.

[Myrddin]

ETA: Copied this post over to the Reform the Hugo thread.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

So, it is hip to hate "Among Others" now? Because I read it a couple of months ago and really loved it...

On this board, apparently. I really loved Among Others, but I am aware it appeals mostly to a narrow group of people who identify with this particular protagonist. Of course, it is precisely the group which votes for awards, so its success is easily understandable.

OTOH, we had in Poland some positive reactions from readers from different background who do tend to read it simply as nostalgia trip.

[David Selig]

I loved Among Others too. Yeah, it appeals mostly to a certain demographics, sure (which I belonged to, at least to some degree), but it's well written, engaging and funny. I'd have voted for it without hesitation out of the nominees that year.

Sure, the nostalgia factor helped it win, but it's kind of inevitable that stuff like this influences awards, it's never about quality only.

It's certainly way better written than Redshirts.