TheTowerOfJoy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 See, now you're projecting your thoughts onto characters. The characters have their own modes of thinking, that are completely independent from whatever you might think. No matter what you thought you would do in Robert's place, you aren't Robert, and GRRM didn't write him that way. It's not the first time Robert has cowed to Cersei, and it's not the first bad decision Robert has made. It's not the last either.Holy cow, I responded to AshTree asking what we would do if a pet tried to attack OUR SON. Please read the context of a quote before you attack someone. what would you do if someone's pet tried to kill your son? Would you let that pet enter your house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Well "that pet" wasn't the one that bit him, and if there was evidence that my son was lying about the incident, and actually provoked the attack, then I might feel differently.Ok, then let's change the assumption, if a tiger attacks you son and then someone asks that the tiger's sister be brought into your house, what would you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bippy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 I agree, the Sansa hate is getting risiculous. Sansa gives a testimony around the time Mycah is killed and she's blamed for it. :bang: :bang: :bang:*cough* If we're elevating this to the level of "a testimony" she perjures herself. You can't simultaneously give her credit for telling the truth to Ned and telling the truth to the "court."What is the response of the thread to Ned's later comment to Arya: "So-and-so is a good person and Sansa.... Sansa is your sister." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 This. You can spread the blame for Lady around and say it was the adults fault. I won't disagree. IMHO what gets lost in this blame game is Sansa's testimony. Itgoes against the Family First tenet and only later after she does it again, by going behind Ned's back when he is trying to secure his families safety, does it hit home. Were her actions reversed the outcomes wouldn't have differed is not any defense in my opinion. Does she pay for these decisions. More than anyone in the story. To gloss over these facts does no justice to Sansa or the fate of her family.In one stroke Sansa and Arya are made "The Lone Wolf"Exactly. Bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 *cough* If we're elevating this to the level of "testimony" she perjures herself. You can't simultaneously give her credit for telling the truth to Ned and telling the truth to the "court."What is the response of the thread to Ned's later comment to this "So-and-so is a good person and Sansa.... Sansa is your sister."Wut? We're talking about whether Sansa is to blame for Mycah's death, not whatever your post is supposed to mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanzaiZ Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 The law is whatever the king says it is, and the king can certainly use logic and reason to decide a matter.Because the kings have never faced rebellion before for flagrantly not following the laws or doing their own thing? Again, even IF Robert decided to openly pardon Arya after Sansa testified in front of a room of high ranking people that Arya did indeed attack Joffrey, the Stark reputation is going to take a massive hit in the eyes of other nobility, because attacking the Crown Prince is still frowned on, regardless.I think the real crux of some people's issues is that Sansa didn't corroborate Arya's lie. Because I don't see the outrage for Arya blatantly lying. Were Sansa to tell the truth, she puts her family in a bad position, period. At least this way there is no definitive answer, and people go about their way and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanzaiZ Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Holy cow, I responded to AshTree asking what we would do if a pet tried to attack OUR SON. Please read the context of a quote before you attack someone.I'll totally cop to missing that. I still completely disagree with you on every other point, but that was definitely my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Because the kings have never faced rebellion before for flagrantly not following the laws or doing their own thing? Again, even IF Robert decided to openly pardon Arya after Sansa testified in front of a room of high ranking people that Arya did indeed attack Joffrey, the Stark reputation is going to take a massive hit in the eyes of other nobility, because attacking the Crown Prince is still frowned on, regardless.I think the real crux of some people's issues is that Sansa didn't corroborate Arya's lie. Because I don't see the outrage for Arya blatantly lying. Were Sansa to tell the truth, she puts her family in a bad position, period. At least this way there is no definitive answer, and people go about their way and move on.What did Arya lie about? I must have missed that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Ok, then let's change the assumption, if a tiger attacks you son and then someone asks that the tiger's sister be brought into your house, what would you do?I probably wouldn't be happy about it, but I don't think I would demand it be put down for something it's sister did either(especially if there was evidence that said sister was provoked). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 I'll totally cop to missing that. I still completely disagree with you on every other point, but that was definitely my bad.No problem :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanzaiZ Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 What did Arya lie about? I must have missed that...Arya lied at the trial. Ned knows she did. Arya and Joffrey both gave false testimony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Arya lied at the trial. Ned knows she did. Arya and Joffrey both gave false testimony.There is no comparison here, Arya lied to protect Mycah. Sansa lied to protect Joffrey knowing full well that he was the aggressor and Mycah was the victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 I don't think it's an either/or.I think Robert, Sansa, Joff, Cersei and to a much lesser degree Ned were all shown as wanting in that scene. I don't think any of them cancel each other out, with the possible exception of Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiftraven Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 I mostly just blame Cersei for being cruel, and Robert for agreeing to her demand and walking out of the room even after Ned begged him not to. Pretty pathetic of him in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Because the kings have never faced rebellion before for flagrantly not following the laws or doing their own thing? Again, even IF Robert decided to openly pardon Arya after Sansa testified in front of a room of high ranking people that Arya did indeed attack Joffrey, the Stark reputation is going to take a massive hit in the eyes of other nobility, because attacking the Crown Prince is still frowned on, regardless.I think the real crux of some people's issues is that Sansa didn't corroborate Arya's lie. Because I don't see the outrage for Arya blatantly lying. Were Sansa to tell the truth, she puts her family in a bad position, period. At least this way there is no definitive answer, and people go about their way and move on.What the seven hells is that about Arya's lie?Arya had already admitted that she attacked Joffrey. She told the whole story. Even if she "downplayed" how much Nymeria hurt Joffrey (IMO she isn't, Nymeria could have trully ripped of his hand, but didn't), Joffrey's wounds were there for everyone to evaluate. It didn't need any confirmation from Sansa. Joffrey accused Arya, Arya admitted it and the issue of the "trial" was: 1) if Mycah was guilty too and 2) who "started it".Arya lied at the trial. Ned knows she did. Arya and Joffrey both gave false testimony.By my book, Ned knows that Arya is telling the truth, because he has heared the same version of events from Sansa. That's why he calls her, to verify Arya's testimony. He does not call her to lie. I don't know what book you're reading...And by the way, if we make of Sansa the wise, savy person who decides to lie in order to protect her sister and her house's honour, instead for the confused little girl who is unfairly put into a difficult situation and refuses to answer the dilemma, then there is a problem with her consequent decisions and actions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 There is no comparison here, Arya lied to protect Mycah. Sansa lied to protect Joffrey knowing full well that he was the aggressor and Mycah was the victim.Arya downplayed what happened to protect Nymeria. Nowhere is it said that Sansa lied to protect Joff. Nor did her remaining neutral protect Joff. He may have been the aggressor where Mycah was concerned, but actually no one gives a crap about Mycah apart from Arya. When Arya attacked Joff, she was the aggressor. Llook at the Hedge Knight: this is not a fairy tale. GRRM talks about bad fantasy and mentions that peasants who talk back to superiors without punishment are the stuff of bad fantasy. Ignoring class distinctions is good and it makes Arya a more modern character and easier to relate to, but in a world where those decisions are believed in by others, it makes her actions very dangerous to people such as Mycah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 And by the way, if we make of Sansa the wise, savy person who decides to lie in order to protect her sister and her house's honour, instead for the confused little girl who is unfairly put into a difficult situation and refuses to answer the dilemma, then there is a problem with her consequent decisions and actions...Is anyone really trying to say she lies on purpose to protect her sister here?The bottom part of your paragraph above seems like the more likely answer: scared little girl in a terrible situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Is anyone really trying to say she lies on purpose to protect her sister here?The bottom part of your paragraph above seems like the more likely answer: scared little girl in a terrible situation.Yes, I think BanzaiZ is claiming this, in a previous post. What I believe is that bottom part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 By my book, Ned knows that Arya is telling the truth, because he has heared the same version of events from Sansa. That's why he calls her, to verify Arya's testimony. He does not call her to lie. I don't know what book you're reading...No one cares about your book.1) if Mycah was guilty too and 2) who "started it".And the result was decided after Sansa testified, Ned was to discipline Arya and Bob would do the same with Joffrey. That was a great outcome and Sansa is to thank for it.What happened after that is that Cersei insisted on killing Lady even though Lady had absolutely nothing to do with the trial or the attack on Joffrey, it was Robert who was fed up with the trial and decided to give her what she wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 No one cares about your book.And the result was decided after Sansa testified, Ned was to discipline Arya and Bob would do the same with Joffrey. That was a great outcome and Sansa is to thank for it.What happened after that is that Cersei insisted on killing Lady even though Lady had absolutely nothing to do with the trial or the attack on Joffrey, it was Robert who was fed up with the trial and decided to give her what she wants.I love you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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