Were we supposed to blame Sansa for Lady?

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I laughed.

Surely though reasonable people can agree that the blame rests with the adults, in some combination, by whatever weight, and not on Sansa (or Arya).

Agreed.

Eta: And Joffrey of course

[Martell Spy]

Sansa testifying against Joffrey wouldn't have saved Lady's life. It would have insured that Cersei got even nastier. And Robert might having been annoyed too, at being further backed into a corner. It might even have cost Sansa her life, since she was in the Lannister's clutches later.

I don't think Ned really values the direwolves, beyond them having value to his children. That's why he doesn't argue that hard. He sees them as basically dogs. Contrast it to how he argues for Dany's life.

It's how Robert views it, as well. A dumb argument over some dogs. What if Cersei was pushing for something important, like having Arya sent back to Winterfell? Robert might have sided against Cersei, then. He's not always opposed to shutting her down, or outright smacking her in the face for that matter. But why bother over a children's fight and a dog?

[A Man Has Said]

I put the blame here on the adults: Cersei for insisting on it, Robert for ordering it and Ned for carrying it out. There is no scenario here where Lady isn't killed, nor any scenario where anyone is believed before Joffrey. If Sansa had backed up Arya's story, Cersei would have accused both of them of lying and had the animal killed anyway and Robert would have agreed to get her off his ass. The moral of the story, near as I can tell, is that Ned should have pushed back harder and been more insistent about not punishing an innocent animal. As Ned later explains to Arya, Sansa is more or less compelled to side with Joffrey, and wouldn't have had much success siding against him. The only person who might have had success — Ned — caved and later regretted it.

I agree that a lot of the blame lies on the adults, but the main onus lies on Joffrey, the sadistic little weasel. After him comes Cersei for so aggressively protecting her son then Robert, not because he innately doesn't like to engage in such things, but because he's so reluctant to stand up to Cersei.

Ned could have pressed the matter a wee bit further perhaps, but just try getting into the middle of a domestic conflict between a man and his (in this case harridan) wife sometimes. It's not that easy.

"Robert would have agreed to get her off his ass." Just so. Exactly so.

Robert later apologizes to Ned after they reach King's Landing, (AGoT, Eddard VII)

"I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf I mean. My son was lying, I'd stake my soul on it."

Let's not make the mistake of letting psycho boy Joff off the hook on this one.

[Audrey Arryn]

Even though I agree most of the blame lies on the adults, Arya and Joffrey also carry some blame.

If Arya was dutiful the end results would have been different.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Even though I agree most of the blame lies on the adults, Arya and Joffrey also carry some blame.

If Arya was dutiful the end results would have been different.

What did Arya do wrong? She was playing with her friend and Joffrey attacked them. Arya defended herself and her friend and Nymeria sensed danger and attacked. Joffrey escalated that situation.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Excellent job on the OP.

I agree with this assessment-- it is an indictment of Robert of sorts. I think it also gives us a clue as to what kind of power Ned truly holds as Hand (he's nearly as helpless as the kids during the trial itself), offers a microcosm of the current state of the court and gives us a hint at how power works in this system. Not only is the power dynamic skewed and corrupted, the joke of "justice" that's carried out is unethical and not remotely a form of justice by any stretch of the imagination (Lady was in fact innocent of anything, yet sentenced), and hammers home the issue of how innocents always suffer when the game is played.

Thanks! Sometimes I think our endless arguments about Sansa with regards to this are sort of missing the point.

[Audrey Arryn]

What did Arya do wrong? She was playing with her friend and Joffrey attacked them. Arya defended herself and her friend and Nymeria sensed danger and attacked. Joffrey escalated that situation.

Arya wasn't supposed to be playing with swords, she should of been dutiful to her septa.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

I don't think Ned really values the direwolves, beyond them having value to his children. That's why he doesn't argue that hard. He sees them as basically dogs. Contrast it to how he argues for Dany's life.

I wonder if Ned would have fought harder for Lady if he had known the role Summer played in saving Bran's life.

[Lonin]

I wondered from the beginning why they were taking the direwolves to Kingslanding... seemed inappropriate (but grrm had other plans for the direwolves) .. so, I kind of blamed Ned for taking them along on the trip.

Most of the blame belongs on the adults. Robert was the King, he could have handled in better. Ned calling Sansa to tell her version was mistake by Ned. Cersei was being Cersei.

We don't really get either Arya's or Joffrey's version of events, other than they were different. Neither was probably telling 100 percent truth.

I don't blame Sansa for Lady's death.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Arya wasn't supposed to be playing with swords, she should of been dutiful to her septa.

Because that's what a lady (no pun intended) is expected to act like?

[mindchap]

I wonder if Ned would have fought harder for Lady if he had known the role Summer played in saving Bran's life.

I think so, because he seemed generally concerned about the whole incident when he does find out. Something like the Gods sent those wolves oh hell what have I done. Don't have the exact quote at the mo but it's in there.

Found it:

So he listened, and she told it all, from the fire in the library tower to Varys and the guardsmen

and Littlefinger. And when she was done, Eddard Stark sat dazed beside the table, the dagger in

his hand. Bran’s wolf had saved the boy’s life, he thought dully. What was it that Jon had said

when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.

And he had killed Sansa’s, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had

sent these wolves, what folly had he done?

[A Man Has Said]

Sansa testifying against Joffrey wouldn't have saved Lady's life. It would have insured that Cersei got even nastier. And Robert might having been annoyed too, at being further backed into a corner. It might even have cost Sansa her life, since she was in the Lannister's clutches later.

I don't think Ned really values the direwolves, beyond them having value to his children. That's why he doesn't argue that hard. He sees them as basically dogs. Contrast it to how he argues for Dany's life.

It's how Robert views it, as well. A dumb argument over some dogs. What if Cersei was pushing for something important, like having Arya sent back to Winterfell? Robert might have sided against Cersei, then. He's not always opposed to shutting her down, or outright smacking her in the face for that matter. But why bother over a children's fight and a dog?

Not then, no. There is a passage, I think in AGoT, Eddard VI when Ned finds out about how Summer saved Bran's life that his attitude changes dramatically and he expresses a LOT of regret over having killed Lady. It dawns on him just how special these particular wolves are, and that they were indeed fated to be with his children. Just as the ever-perceptive Jon said from the beginning.

ETA:

I wonder if Ned would have fought harder for Lady if he had known the role Summer played in saving Bran's life.

Ninja'd! :ninja:

[Audrey Arryn]

Because that's what a lady (no pun intended) is expected to act like?

Considering a sword is a weapon not a toy, even young males use it under guidance like when Robb was training.

Arya wasnt using it under guidance.

[Minsc]

Considering a sword is a weapon not a toy, even young males use it under guidance like when Robb was training.

Arya wasnt using it under guidance.

She was fighting with sticks not actual swords. Though that can make wonder what was Jon thinking when he gave her an actual blade.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Not then, no. There is a passage, I think in AGoT, Eddard VI when Ned finds out about how Summer saved Bran's life that his attitude changes dramatically and he expresses a LOT of regret over having killed Lady. It dawns on him just how special these particular wolves are, and that they were indeed fated to be with his children. Just as the ever-perceptive Jon said from the beginning.

It's interesting, really. Ned kills a gift from the gods. He ends up being killed on the steps of the Sept of Baelor. His oldest son is killed in the sight of Gods and men when the most time honored tradition in Westeros, guest right, is violated. His wife perishes in the same event. His home is lost, burned even. It's like the Gods are punishing the Starks for that transgression of Ned's.

[Audrey Arryn]

She was fighting with sticks not actual swords. Though that can make wonder what was Jon thinking when he gave her an actual blade.

Yea but when Robb was training with a wooden sword he was still under guidance.

Yea what was Jon thinking.

[Bippy]

For Lady's death, I think probably not. For turning against Arya and lying, absolutely.

[Minsc]

Yea but when Robb was training with a wooden sword he was still under guidance.

A wooden sword is still different then a stick.

[Bippy]

You could argue that Lady's death makes Sansa's essential identity issue externally visible. She is a very grey character, not so much because of what she does necessarily as what she catalyses.

[Audrey Arryn]

A wooden sword is still different then a stick.

Ok I see your point, but I still think Arya caries some blame.

As some already pointed out Sansa'a decsion change wouldnt affect the end result, but Arya's could of had she been more dutiful to her septa.