Will Sansa slowly turn into Cersei? I think so.

[Minsc]

Sansa isn't as messed up as Cersei, but she still lusts for power. She wanted Joff, not because he was a great person, but because he could give her the power she wanted as Queen.

When did she talk about wanting to be queen for the power, hell her main focus seemed to be how she wanted to give Joffrey pretty babies and she talks about she wants the people to love her not some pursuit for power.

She feels little or no remorse about her part in Joff's murder, or framing Tyrion for it.

Why would she feel remorse for Joffrey's murder? Not mention, how she was at most an unwitting participant thus it isn't like she is intentionally responsible for it or the framing of Tyrion.

[Oblivian]

Sansa is very good at lying to herself (like the unkiss). In her mind she wants simple and innocent things, but she'd never admit what she really wants, even to herself. She knew what Joff was long before Ned's execution, she just denied it. She also knew Joff was going to die at the Wedding, she just didn't openly think it. Tyrion notes how during the wedding, she keeps looking over at Joff, as if she expects something to happen. She is good at getting people to believe she's innocent and kind, even herself...and readers.

[Starkfaithful85]

:cheers: Welcome to the forums!

Many people here are thinking she will become a player in her own right, but not like Cersei, who is arrogant and careless of innocence, a fool to begin with, and losing her mind now. More like the Queen of Thorns, who can be genuinely good-hearted, but will do what she must for the good of the realm. The event pattern you describe is pretty much consensus here, but she will resolve not to be cruel, only to deliver justice to those who deserve it. Sort of like Arya, with a softer style.

prediction: sansa will use sweetsleep on robert to kill him...there is support for this in AFFC where the maester in the vale tells baelish that it is unwise to use it so often...robert will die from sweetsleep...baelish could also do it and sansa could out him for his many crimes...either way robert arryn is gonna be one dead kid :D

[Newstar]

Her killing SR is also a lot easier given SR has no redeeming traits. He is her blood, but through crazy dangerous aunt Lysa, and she'd never met him until recently so there's no real attachment. The kid is annoying, whiney, needy and a general shithead. If SR had been an Egg or even Tommen or Myrcella then it'd be so much harder. I doubt it's a coincidence SR just happens to be an easy target.

He's not that easy a target; he's no Tommen, to be sure, but he's no Joffrey, either. Thus the "controversy," maybe. We wouldn't be able to cheer on his death unreservedly like Joffrey's, since he is a helpless, vulnerable, very ill and possibly mentally disabled child, but we wouldn't be able to feel as badly as we would over Tommen's, either, since he's the same kid who enthusiastically demanded a stranger's execution for his personal amusement in AGOT.

Either way, even though on one level I think Sansa has to become a ruthless murderer to become a member of the players' club, on another, more intuitive level, I feel that if Sansa consciously has anything to do with Sweetrobin's death--not even in the sense of actively murdering him, but in the sense of acquiescing to his murder for whatever reason--then her fate will be sealed, and she won't survive the series...which seems odd, I know, since Arya's been killing people left, right and centre for a few books now and I don't have the sense about her that she's crossed some uncrossable line, but Sweetrobin (unlike Arya's post-AGOT marks) is a child, and there's something very sinister about Sansa's relationship with that child in relation to Littlefinger, and that last AFFC chapter in particular. It's perfectly positioned to take Sansa somewhere she can't come back from.

[Dicer]

Successfully creating a power block that ended a dynasty that was over 300 years old is a success. Much more then anything that Cersei has done which has been only for her to run up against walls repeatedly.

They made marriage alliances. Everyone does that. The Targs did that too. They won the war because of the military prowess of Ned and Robert. Not because they played the game. Cersei on the other hand played the game against Ned and won. She was able to secure her son's inheritance and keep the Lannisters in power.

And Jaime joined the Kingsguard, must mean Tywin didn't know how to play the game. Simply, even with those failings their alliance still won out in the end against the enemy. And how is Ned dying relevant?

Wut? What does Jaime being in the KG have to do with anything? According to you an example of Hoster playing the game was getting his daughter married off. I was pointing out that in order to do that, he forced his daughter to have an abortion and forced her to marry a much older man. Her own father basically ruined her life to get his alliance. That's what I would call cruel. Similarly Rickard was planning on marrying off his daughter to someone she clearly disliked for his whoring ways.

Ned dying in KL is relevant because it shows how bad he is at the game. But he still married Catelyn for an alliance. This shows that just marrying into other houses does not indicate a proficiency in the game.

Who can image how a possible alliance between the North, Vale, Riverlands, and Stormlands might possibly a threat besides for how they successfully overthrew the Targaryens. Moreover, there seems to have been efforts to bring Tywin into the alliance with the possible marriage of Jaime and Lysa thus adding another kingdom to the mix.

They were not a threat because they did not threaten Aerys or the Targs. Are you saying that in the 300 years since the Targs were in the power, there were no intermarriages amongst the other houses at all? That the Starks marrying the Tullys or the Starks marrying the Baratheons was a strange new phenomenon? I would think that houses marry amongst each other all the time.

Also, Tywin only turned against the Targaryens after Rhaeger and the Crown's army had been defeated thus he was hardly instrumental.

Yes, he was waiting for a victor to chose sides. So? His betrayal along with that of Jaime's helped in taking KL in a much easier fight. Apparently Aerys was planning on setting the city on fire.

Plus there is a difference between playing the game and winning a war. Ned's a good commander but a bad player.

Exactly. So it's not that they were good at the game. They won the war because they were good at war.

There was still the development of the Southern Strategies, just because Aerys bungled in created the situation doesn't mean they wouldn't have been prepared to do more or enforce change if the Starks hadn't been murdered. Making alliances is part of the game, thus there is no weakness is Jon Arryn allying his movement with the Lannisters

Southern strategies? What the hell is that? You need to link me to the relevant chapter because I don't remember reading about this in the book.

Tywin was hardly wary of Tyrion otherwise he wouldn't have treated him like crap all the time, thus ensuring that Tyrion doesn't snap sometime and start to plot against him. Simply, Tywin took Tyrion for granted just as much as Jon Arryn took LF for granted. Only in this case LF has persuaded everyone to not see him as a threat, while it obvious to most that Tyrion is actually highly skilled in the game.

Tywin send Tyrion to KL to take charge and to take Joffrey in hand. Tywin made Tyrion Hand of the King. I think that indicates that Tywin had a lot of trust in Tyrion's abilities. Tywin knew Tyrion very well. He knew that all of his children, Tyrion was the most similar to him and that's why he resented it so much that Tyrion was a dwarf. He did not want Tyrion to have Casterly Rock, but other than that he had a healthy appreciation for Tyrion's abilities. Which was one of the reasons for why he had no issues with Tyrion being put in prison or send to the wall. It's clear that Tywin did not take Tyrion for granted. It's clear that Tywin did not take anyone for granted.

And if according to you, it's obvious to most that Tyrion is skilled in the game, then would Tywin take him for granted?

As for LF, as I said, Arryn is the reason LF is in KL in the first place. LF was able to manipulate Jon's wife and move up the ladder. Jon did not realize that his wife, the person he was living with, the mother of his child was plotting against him. Even Ned treaded with caution where LF was concerned, Tyrion did not trust LF and neither did Renly. But it seemed that Arryn had no suspicions at all about LF and his wife. He was as dumb as Robert.

Tywin faced four rebellions, had his grandson/king murdered in front of him and had one of his sons framed for that crime, the Tyrells were now more powerful then the Lannisters. Seems like Tywin didn't do all that much better.

You are right he faced four rebellions. He had a tougher job than Arryn did. Arryn took over after the war was won. Tywin took over when he was facing four different threats. Sure he lost his grandson, but he was still in charge and the Lannisters still had power while he was alive. He decimated the Tullys and the Starks. He made alliances with both the Tyrells and the Martells unlike Arryn who just focussed on the Lannisters.

Also remember that Tywin was winning the game against Arryn for the 15 years Arryn was in power. The Lannisters were gradually taking over KL while Arryn sat on his hands and did nothing.

The North is still plotting against his family, the BWB is running amok throughout the Riverlands hanging his allies, the Tyrells have taken over King's Landing and his other grandson, Dorne holds his granddaughter as a hostage, Jaime is still not his heir and is being led into a trap, Tyrion is an attained traitor plotting revenge against the Lannisters, his daughter was paraded naked through the streets likely in part because the plotting of one of his allies(Tyrells).

And all this happens after his death. Like I said, he had hardly spend any time as Hand of the King. Give him the 15 years that Arryn had and Tywin would have done a tremendously better job strengthening Lannister hold on KL. Also the Lannisters still hold KL and Casterly Rock, Jaime is still KG, Tommen is still King and Cersei is still Queen Regent.

Meanwhile SweetRobin is probably not going to last long, the Starks no longer hold Winterfell and Renly and Robert are both dead. So what's the big deal with that alliance 15 years ago? House Arryn is almost gone, Shireen seems to be the only heir left for the Baratheons and there is no Stark at Winterfell. Even the King who knelt did not lose Winterfell. Hoster, Rickard and Arryn basically destroyed their respective houses.

[Light a wight tonight]

She takes care of that boy better than anyone. And the fact, SR loves her, the fact he is her own blood, and that she is against harming the innocent (wondefully seen when she practicaly saved Lancel's life). She is no fool, she knows what she's doing, but that doesn't mean she would kill the boy.

Also, we are not certain in that cannibal theory...

Maybe he meant the "sow" that Coldhands killed. That was fairly certainly a human.

[Minsc]

They made marriage alliances. Everyone does that. The Targs did that too. They won the war because of the military prowess of Ned and Robert. Not because they played the game. Cersei on the other hand played the game against Ned and won. She was able to secure her son's inheritance and keep the Lannisters in power.

Creating military alliances is part of playing the game. LF won it for her by his decision to turn against Ned without her really doing all that much besides exploit Ned's sense of honor.

Ned dying in KL is relevant because it shows how bad he is at the game. But he still married Catelyn for an alliance. This shows that just marrying into other houses does not indicate a proficiency in the game.

Ned didn't set up that alliance, and his marriage to Catelyn still set up a system which allowed his son to cause a mess for Tywin until his son fell apart from his self imposed political failings.

They were not a threat, because they did not threaten Aerys or the Targs. Are you saying that in the 300 years since the Targs were in the power, there were no intermarriages amongst the other houses at all? That the Starks marrying the Tullys or the Starks marrying the Baratheons was a strange new phenomenon? I would think that houses marry amongst each other all the time.

From all appearances it seems most common for nobles to marry within the same region.

Yes, he was waiting for a victor to chose sides. So? His betrayal along with that of Jaime's helped in taking KL in a much easier fight. Apparently Aerys was planning on setting the city on fire.

That hardly makes him instrumental in how the basic war had already been won.

Southern strategies? What the hell is that? You need to link me to the relevant chapter because I don't remember reading about this in the book.

Lady Dustin talks about Rickard's Southern ambitions during her talk with Theon in the crypt.

Tywin send Tyrion to KL to take charge and to take Joffrey in hand. Tywin made Tyrion Hand of the King. I think that indicates that Tywin had a lot of trust in Tyrion's abilities. Tywin knew Tyrion very well. He knew that all of his children, Tyrion was the most similar to him and that's why he resented it so much that Tyrion was a dwarf. He did not want Tyrion to have Casterly Rock, but other than that he had a healthy appreciation for Tyrion's abilities. Which was one of the reasons for why he had no issues with Tyrion being put in prison or send to the wall. It's clear that Tywin did not take Tyrion for granted. It's clear that Tywin did not take anyone for granted.

Constantly abusing someone and treating them to dirt is taking them for granted. Simply, Tywin set up the situation that would led Tyrion into committing patricide.

And if according to you, it's obvious to most that Tyrion is skilled in the game, then would Tywin take him for granted?

Because Tywin is blinded by his hatred, thus sees nothing wrong with constantly abusing Tyrion at almost every turn.

As for LF, as I said, Arryn is the reason LF is in KL in the first place. LF was able to manipulate Jon's wife and move up the ladder. Jon did not realize that his wife, the person he was living with, the mother of his child was plotting against him. Even Ned treaded with caution where LF was concerned, Tyrion did not trust LF and neither did Renly. But it seemed that Arryn had no suspicions at all about LF and his wife. He was as dumb as Robert.

Ned wasn't sure because LF openly told Ned not to trust him, while Tyrion already knew that LF had framed him for a crime he didn't commit. Meanwhile, Tywin allowed LF to set up a situation was he is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and Lord Protector of the Vale despite him holding no loyalty to the Lannisters. While, Jaime thinks about how he would make a great Hand of the King.

You are right he faced four rebellions. He had a tougher job than Arryn did. Arryn took over after the war was won. Tywin took over when he was facing four different threats. Sure he lost his grandson, but he was still in charge and the Lannisters still had power while he was alive. He decimated the Tullys and the Starks. He made alliances with both the Tyrells and the Martells unlike Arryn who just focussed on the Lannisters.

The Tyrells were the one coming into power and overwhelming his beloved Lannisters. Meanwhile, it was Tyrion and LF who got the Tyrells and Martells to join his cause not anything that Tywin did. Though, honestly both the Tyrells and Martells were just secretly plotting against with him(aka killing his grandson).

Also, Jon Arryn equally brought in the Tyrells and Martells.

And all this happens after his death. Like I said, he had hardly spend any time as Hand of the King. Give him the 15 years that Arryn had and Tywin would have done a tremendously better job strengthening Lannister hold on KL. Also the Lannisters still hold KL and Casterly Rock, Jaime is still KG, Tommen is still King and Cersei is still Queen Regent.

He was the Hand of the King for the entire reign of Joffrey only for a majority of the time he was too busy getting his ass handed to him by a 15 year boy so he relied on Tyrion to actually accomplish the majority of the Lannister's successes. Aka bringing the Tyrells and Martells into the fold and defending King's Landing.

Meanwhile, the Lannister no longer control King's Landing instead that is the Tyrells, Jaime is still in the KG and not his heir (oh he is also abandoning his duty to family to run off with Brienne), Tommen is a puppet for the Tyrells, and Cersei is no longer regent and has been paraded naked in front of an entire city like a whore.

[Grip]

OP; Interesting idea, while I doubt that Sansa is going to end up similar to Cersei its still something I hadn't really thought of before.

[Newstar]

OP; Interesting idea, while I doubt that Sansa is going to end up similar to Cersei its still something I hadn't really thought of before.

It's sort of a mashup of the "Sansa will become Littlefinger" (Sansa will become a ruthless player) and "Sansa will become Lysa" (Sansa will go insane) theories, which are already pretty well-established in terms of fans raising the theories, with a pinch of "Sansa wanted to be like Cersei in AGOT" thrown in. As for the insanity prediction, to be fair, two Tully women did grow up sane and then went on to lose their minds (Lysa and Cat). Maybe Sansa will make it three for three? :D Memory errors like Sansa's can be associated with mental illness, after all...

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Sansa is very good at lying to herself (like the unkiss). In her mind she wants simple and innocent things, but she'd never admit what she really wants, even to herself. She knew what Joff was long before Ned's execution, she just denied it. She also knew Joff was going to die at the Wedding, she just didn't openly think it. Tyrion notes how during the wedding, she keeps looking over at Joff, as if she expects something to happen. She is good at getting people to believe she's innocent and kind, even herself...and readers.

Are you actually saying that she thought Joffrey would die at the wedding but didn't think it? If she didn't think it in her POV chapters, then she didn't think it period.

How is it possible to "openly think" something? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

[Dicer]

Creating military alliances is part of playing the game. LF won it for her by his decision to turn against Ned without her really doing all that much besides exploit Ned's sense of honor.

Yeah, but she had a hand in what happened to Robert. She used Sansa's foolishness against the Starks and got a Stark hostage. Which gave her a hold over Ned. Holding Sansa as a hostage, led to Cat releasing Jaime.

And yes, creating military alliances is part of the game. But it's not all there is to the game. That's why we keep saying that there are players and then there are players. Hoster, Rickard, Arryn etc are second tier players. They maybe ruthless, but they are not willing to go that extra step that's necessary to climb to the very top.

Ned didn't set up that alliance, and his marriage to Catelyn still set up a system which allowed his son to cause a mess for Tywin until his son fell apart from his self imposed political failings.

Ned did set it up. His father set it up between Brandon and Catelyn. After Brandon and Rickard died, it's upto Ned. He could have backed out, but seeing as Aerys was demanding his head, he needed allies. I don't see anything different about Ned making an alliance with Hoster and Robb making an alliance with the Freys.

From all appearances it seems most common for nobles to marry within the same region.

Is this specified in the text?

That hardly makes him instrumental in how the basic war had already been won.

But it made it easier to take KL. If he had sided with the Targs it would have led to another long, protracted battle. Probably a decimated KL. The Lannisters and KL still standing with the Targs would have led the Tyrells and Redwynes to continue their stand. Arryn knew how important the Lannisters were. That's why he gave them so many concessions after the war.

And again, Arryn overlooked Tywin's war crimes.

Lady Dustin talks about Rickard's Southern ambitions during her talk with Theon in the crypt.

Yes, but is that true? Dustin has some biases against Rickard. And does southern ambition imply attacking KL or just forming an alliance with the Vale and Riverrun?

Constantly abusing someone and treating them to dirt is taking them for granted. Simply, Tywin set up the situation that would led Tyrion into committing patricide.

Making someone the Hand of the King is treating them like Dirt? Marrying him to Sansa and giving him Winterfell? Tywin did not treat Tyrion well, that's true. But that's not because he thought Tyrion was an idiot. It was because Tyrion was a dwarf. Tywin had a healthy respect for Tyrion's political shrewdness.

Because Tywin is blinded by his hatred, thus sees nothing wrong with constantly abusing Tyrion at almost every turn.

Again, even if this is true, Tywin never under estimated Tyrion. He may have hated him, but the hate was for his deformity, not for his intelligence. You will notice that he did not trust Cersei to be in charge.

Ned wasn't sure because LF openly told Ned not to trust him, while Tyrion already knew that LF had framed him for a crime he didn't commit.

And Renly? Why did he not trust LF? And Varys and Pycelle? Seems like most of Robert's small council had an idea of who to trust and who not to. Except for Arryn who seems to be a bit dim. Tyrion is not the type to just trust anyone. Ned seems to be wary of LF on account of Cat. The fact that Arryn did not notice anything out of the ordinary about his nutcase wife beggars belief. He did not suspect that his wife was in love with someone else and that there was a relationship between LF and Lysa. That makes him worse than Ned.

Meanwhile, Tywin allowed LF to set up a situation was he is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and Lord Protector of the Vale despite him holding no loyalty to the Lannisters. While, Jaime thinks about how he would make a great Hand of the King.

Yeah, but Tywin did not serve on the small council with Littlefinger. Tywin did not know LF as long as Arryn did. LF was not having a secret affair with Joanna Lannister. LF was responsible for Ned being apprehended and supported the Lannisters, Cersei and Joffrey.

The Tyrells were the one coming into power and overwhelming his beloved Lannisters. Meanwhile, it was Tyrion and LF who got the Tyrells and Martells to join his cause not anything that Tywin did. Though, honestly both the Tyrells and Martells were just secretly plotting against with him(aka killing his grandson).

What? How did the Tyrells take over when Tywin was alive? And yes, Tyrion and LF got the other deals, but who put them in charge to make those deals? Who made Tyrion Hand of the King and gave him the authority to do so? Who then gave LF the authority to do so? It all starts with Tywin.

And QOT was plotting against Joffrey, not necessarily against the Lannisters. As for Doran, I am sure Tywin knew that Doran was not going to be that forgiving for what happened to Elia.

Also, Jon Arryn equally brought in the Tyrells and Martells.

If he equally brought in the Tyrells and Martells, then why did the Lanisters have so much power when Ned got there?

He was the Hand of the King for the entire reign of Joffrey only for a majority of the time he was too busy getting his ass handed to him by a 15 year boy so he relied on Tyrion to actually accomplish the majority of the Lannister's successes. Aka bringing the Tyrells and Martells into the fold and defending King's Landing.

Yeah, and while he was hand of the king, Tywin demolised the Tullys and Starks without even having to leave KL. That's how good he was. He was a wartime Hand of the King facing 4 different threats and many battles, unlike Arryn. Tywin's king was a 15 year old brat. He had double the work to do. On the other hand Arryn was a peacetime Hand of the King and his King was an adult who he had mentored and put on the throne. Despite this he did nothing as the Lannisters gained more power and KL went into debt.

And a good leader knows when to distribute duties. Tywin knew that Tyrion would be up to the job and put him in charge. Unlike Arryn who put Robert on the throne and look how that turned out.

Meanwhile, the Lannister no longer control King's Landing instead that is the Tyrells, Jaime is still in the KG and not his heir (oh he is also abandoning his duty to family to run off with Brienne), Tommen is a puppet for the Tyrells, and Cersei is no longer regent and has been paraded naked in front of an entire city like a whore.

Meanwhile, Cersei is still Queen regent, Tommen is still King, Jaime is still KG. The Lannisters still hold KL and Casterly Rock.

Oh and how are the Starks, Baratheons and Arryns doing? How did all that alliance making and southern strategies and playing the game work out for them?

[Minsc]

Ned did set it up. His father set it up between Brandon and Catelyn. After Brandon and Rickard died, it's upto Ned. He could have backed out, but seeing as Aerys was demanding his head, he needed allies. I don't see anything different about Ned making an alliance with Hoster and Robb making an alliance with the Freys.

Following through with an alliance that was already set up isn't setting it up. In how, Ned didn't have persuade Hoster to marry his daughter to Stark instead she was already pledged to marry one. Thus, Hoster's acceptance was already given with Jon giving the added boast by him marrying Lysa.

But it made it easier to take KL. If he had sided with the Targs it would have led to another long, protracted battle. Probably a decimated KL. The Lannisters and KL still standing with the Targs would have led the Tyrells and Redwynes to continue their stand. Arryn knew how important the Lannisters were. That's why he gave them so many concessions after the war.

Tywin knew the war was done that was why he sided with Robert. Yes, he was a strong potential ally but that hardly makes someone instrumental to the war effort.

And again, Arryn overlooked Tywin's war crimes.

Or Jon Arryn wasn't as outraged as Ned, and regretfully saw it as a necessary act of war.

Making someone the Hand of the King is treating them like Dirt? Marrying him to Sansa and giving him Winterfell? Tywin did not treat Tyrion well, that's true. But that's not because he thought Tyrion was an idiot. It was because Tyrion was a dwarf. Tywin had a healthy respect for Tyrion's political shrewdness.

Tywin was repeatedly verbally, emotionally, and in the past sexually abusive to Tyrion. All of that would logically be enough to convince someone to sooner or later to snap and turn against their abuser. Which, funny enough happened.

And Renly? Why did he not trust LF? And Varys and Pycelle? Seems like most of Robert's small council had an idea of who to trust and who not to. Except for Arryn who seems to be a bit dim. Tyrion is not the type to just trust anyone. Ned seems to be wary of LF on account of Cat. The fact that Arryn did not notice anything out of the ordinary about his nutcase wife beggars belief. He did not suspect that his wife was in love with someone else and that there was a relationship between LF and Lysa. That makes him worse than Ned.

We have no idea about how Jon Arryn thought of Littlefinger as time went by, simply LF used his political powers to make himself irreplaceable thus Jon couldn't easily fire him. Just like how Tyrion couldn't arrest him for framing him for the attempted murder of Bran.

What? How did the Tyrells take over when Tywin was alive? And yes, Tyrion and LF got the other deals, but who put them in charge to make those deals? Who made Tyrion Hand of the King and gave him the authority to do so? Who then gave LF the authority to do so? It all starts with Tywin.

And QOT was plotting against Joffrey, not necessarily against the Lannisters. As for Doran, I am sure Tywin knew that Doran was not going to be that forgiving for what happened to Elia.

By them having the majority of troops and people's favor while in King's Landing, and the Lannister troops being extremely bloodied by Tywin's inablity to beat Robb on the field.

If he equally brought in the Tyrells and Martells, then why did the Lanisters have so much power when Ned got there?

Both the Tyrells and Martells were sworn to Robert, aka meaning they were brought in to the fold of the Baratheon dynasty.

Meanwhile, Cersei is still Queen regent, Tommen is still King, Jaime is still KG. The Lannisters still hold KL and Casterly Rock.

Cersei isn't regent anymore, Tommen is a Tyrell puppet, Jaime being in the KG is a failure for Tywin, and the Tyrell's control KL.

However, this all is so off-topic that I will just plan to end this back-in-forth as it neither about Sansa or Cersei or either of them as players.

[TheReal_Rebel]

I think GRRM is gonna pull the old blindside on this one. We're lead to believe Sansa will kill SR and marry Harry, just as LF wants, but I think that if she's gonna kill someone (which I'm still not sure) it's gonna be Harry, throwing a wrench on LF's plans and blaming him somehow.

Then she will use her influence on SR to have the Vale. We already know she's pretty much the only person that kid listens to, so I think that will play a part.

But I just remembered GRRM managed to throw a wildcard into the mix in her last chapter: the Mad Mouse. He could create all kinds of trouble, I think.

BTW, welcome to the forums, OP :cheers:

Like this.

Don't know why everyone thinks Sansa would kill SR. More likely to kill LF. Wonder if the question is worthy of its own thread.

Well, I don't think it's very likely that Sansa will become like Cersei - not to that degree - because first of all, Cersei is a psychopath, and has been one apparently since childhood.

Still, the chance is there that Sansa could evolve into a harder, meaner version of herself, developing some cunning and using it to bring people down.

Several iterations ago in the "Sansa: From Pawn To Player" thread, I wrote a long analysis of what's going on with Littlefinger and Sansa ...

http://asoiaf.wester...v/#entry3804345

... and so basically at the end, I put in several options for what Sansa may become in the future. If you feel like reading the whole thing, or just part 6, go for it. But to make a long story short, option #3 has the closest thing to what you are speculating on:

----- ----- -----

III - Lady Stark the Queen of Ice: Sansa Stark becomes a dangerous game-player, along the lines of Littlefinger himself, but with an image more like the Queen of Thorns, Cersei Lannister, Melisandre, or Arianne Martell. However, unlike the second option, this Sansa has nothing emotional to bind her to Littlefinger (or anyone else). She takes his knowledge, uses his own weaknesses, usurps his power, and then destroys him. This would not be out of revenge, but rather because she has become like him. Scheming, manipulating and backstabbing become second nature to her. Her old Stark values such as having compassion, acting with honour, or finding true love are buried by a blizzard of cynicism; these are childish dreams she gave up on so she would never be helpless or heartbroken again. In other words, she follows the emotional path Young Petyr did, becomes the new Littlefinger, and then removes the old one. She is a game-player, and the game makes people into monsters. This would make her story an anti-redemption arc (a corruption arc?).

----- ----- -----

So basically it is possible that Sansa masters Littlefinger's lessons, right down to the lack of ethics, and she is definitely the one that is best placed pierce Lord Baelish's armour, so to speak.

Is it likely? I would say this new attitude does not seem normal for her - but then again, who knows what GRRM has in store for her. Jaime Lannister was once proud to be a kingslaying sister-fucking child defenestrator - then he got a redemption arc, and now look at him. So I do not think it impossible to see an "angel" fall. If a redemption arc can exist, then so must its opposite.

I posit that directly in keeping with her Stark values and also the recent history of the Starks & Arryns, Sansa uses LF's plans & plots against him to save SR. Who is also the only relative she knows is alive, other than Jon Snow.

I think all the talk of killing SR is mainly a dislike of a bratty, sickly, annoying though innocent child. Some just seem to want SR to die.

I suppose many readers have or have memory of annoying brats in their own lives that account for this. Lol!

In short, Sansa is nothing like Cersei and is in fact a good deal smarter, stronger and psychologically healthier than the Queen.

You don't see Sansa vent her frustrations like Cersei, killing someone or beating a servant or kicking an old dog or hurting SR secretly as Cersei did to Tyrion.

Sansa also, unlike Cersei, goes out of her way to intervene to prevent cruelty to even people she hardly knows I.e. Ser Dantos. And at great risk to herself.

I also don't think Cersei is going to survive despite Qyburn's magics. I think this Queen is destined to be removed from the Game board fairly quickly.

[Dicer]

Following through with an alliance that was already set up isn't setting it up. In how, Ned didn't have persuade Hoster to marry his daughter to Stark instead she was already pledged to marry one. Thus, Hoster's acceptance was already given with Jon giving the added boast by him marrying Lysa.

Okay fine. Rickard, expertly playing the Game Of Thrones, gets Ned and Catelyn hitched.

Hoster, expertly playing the game of thrones gets Lysa and Arryn hitched. To do this, he forced his daughter to abort her child and marries her to a much older man. If Sansa wishes to become an expert player in arranging marriages like Hoster then she should be ready to be cruel to her family.

I guess Arryn also showed his expertise in being a top notch player by marrying Lysa.

Now what are the effects of these three expertly playing the game by arranging marriages with each other, which must have been so hard to do? Fifteen years after they set their plans in motion,

1. There is no longer a Stark in Winterfell for the first time since Bran the builder build Winterfell 8000 years ago. The Starks have lost Winterfell. That's quite an accomplishment. I think the lesson here is that the Starks should not attempt to play the game.

2. Robert died without any legal heirs, Renly is dead and Shireen is the only legal descendant left if anything happens to Stannis. The Baratheons have been kicked out of KL, Storm's end and DragonStone.

3. SweetRobin seems to be all that's left of Arryn's legacy. And I don't see him lasting long. LF has settled in at the Vale.

4. They Got rid of the Targs, but Dany is still alive and she is coming back with a vengeance and 3 fire breathing dragons.

So all in all, I say that they suck at the game. It's clearly not enough to just arrange marriages and win wars.

Lets look at Tywin Lannister. He quite cleverly waited out the war, not suffering any casualities. Then he stepped in pretending to help Aerys, betrayed him and took KL. So while Ned and Robert suffered casualities, Tywin did not lose much because he did not care about things like honor and oaths. The Tyrells seem to have followed a similar game plan.

Arryn then makes an alliance with the Lannisters because they are a powerful house but ends up giving them too much power. Robert marries Cersei and Jaime becomes KG despite failing at his job in the worst way possible.

At this point Arryn overlooks Tywin ordering the rape and murder of Elia and the murder of the children. So if Sansa wants to become a player like Arryn, then she should be willing to overlook the rape of innocent women and the murder of infants to reach her goals.

In the fifteen years that pass, KL is nearly bankrupt and in debt to both the Iron bank and the Lannisters. Tywin was Warden of the west and Jaime was going to be Warden of the east. All 3 of Cersei's children are Lannisters. Littlefinger has risen up the ranks using Lysa Arryn. Varys has set his game into motion. Robert has become fat and drunk, while Ned is up North and Jon Arryn proves to be powerless as Hand.

So what was the point of Hoster, Rickard and Arryn arranging those marriages? It seems to have benefitted the Lannisters more than anyone. And they did not even have to really fight in the war. The Starks, Baratheons and Arryns did all the work and then the Lannisters came in and took their power. That's what's meant by playing the game. Not just arranging marriages.

And that's the difference between someone like Tywin and someone like Arryn. Arryn plays the game by arranging marriages. That seems to be the extent of that. Meanwhile Tywin arranges the destruction of a house just by writing letters and making deals. He does not even have to fight. He loses no men and money that way.

It's clear to me that Tywin is a more successful leader than Arryn, Hoster or Rickard ever were. The latter three may have destroyed the Targs, but Tywin has managed to defeat Stannis Baratheon in battle and bring down both the Tullys and the Starks just by playing the game.

Now, you can continue to argue the point, but it's clear to me that Tywin enjoyed more success than Arryn ever did. In the end when Tywin died he was head of Casterly Rock, Hand of the King, his daughter was Queen, Jaime was still alive and his grandchildren were future kings. His legacy included taking down the Targs, Baratheons, Starks and Tullys. What did Arryn have to show for all his southern strategies against Aerys? 15 years as hand letting the Lannisters become gradually powerful, a sickly 8 year old, a wife who did not love him and the knowledge that Robert's children were all Lannisters.

[RhaenysBee]

It'd be pretty interesting if Sansa turned into Cersei. It would say a lot about how cruel the world is. But there would always be a difference between the two. Cersei was already a little evil bitch as a young teen (killing her friend), while Sansa was an sweet little girl.

Though if I think about it, you can definitely draw some parallels between them. Cersei hated her little brother, because he was deformed and Sansa liked to ignore and look down on Jon from the age she could understand what 'bastard' meant. They both had their pink dreams of being Queen, but then shit happened because Eddard didn't want Sansa to wed Joff anymore and Aerys refused to wed Rhaegar to Cersei. Later, more shit happened, because they got their princes, on way or the other, but Joff turned out to be a psychopath and Robert a whoring drunkard.

But I still think, that all along their paths Sansa had more and worse shit going on, while she remained far sweeter and more good-hearted than Cersei had ever been.

[juanml82]

She takes care of that boy better than anyone. And the fact, SR loves her, the fact he is her own blood, and that she is against harming the innocent (wondefully seen when she practicaly saved Lancel's life). She is no fool, she knows what she's doing, but that doesn't mean she would kill the boy.

Also, we are not certain in that cannibal theory...

I meant the Night's Watch deserters Bran and Co. had for breakfast on their way to the CotF cave. Regarding SR, Newstar already explained it.

Sansa is very good at lying to herself (like the unkiss). In her mind she wants simple and innocent things, but she'd never admit what she really wants, even to herself. She knew what Joff was long before Ned's execution, she just denied it. She also knew Joff was going to die at the Wedding, she just didn't openly think it. Tyrion notes how during the wedding, she keeps looking over at Joff, as if she expects something to happen. She is good at getting people to believe she's innocent and kind, even herself...and readers.

I agree Sansa is very good at lying to herself, but she didn't know Joffrey was going to die at the Wedding. She might have been expecting it (Dontos hinted at it when talking about the 'magical' hairnet), but she was still rather foolish by then and might have been looking at Joffrey in a mixture of fear and hatred. There is also the greatsword Illyn Payne wears (Ice minus the Valyrian Steel or something like that) which adds salt to the wound right in the feast.

[butterbumps!]

Why "player" and "non-ruthless" are not irreconcilable

First, "ruthless" is not merely an issue of using force. Ruthlessness is acting without pity or compassion. As it pertains to the game, "ruthlessness" involves using people as mean to one's ends, having no consideration for innocents as collateral damage, and being unrelenting about achieving one's goals to a point where one is lost to a bigger picture, morality and discontinues respecting other people as people.

Tywin, LF, the QoT and Marg are examples of ruthless players. Each of these players have amoral motivations-- namely, personal advancement and/or a desire to manipulate people, each treats other people as means to achieve their ends, and innocents (both innocent morally and those who are non-players) who are seen as tools or impediments are accepted as collateral damage.

I strongly don't think this is the only way to play though, or necessarily that this is the only way to succeed. I think a lot depends on why one is playing. If one's reasons for becoming involved in the game are about survival, rectifying true wrongs, or taking on the character of a higher purpose, it changes the entire framework. If one approaches the game from a moral standpoint, it precludes one from using others as means to one's ends and harming innocent parties in the process. That is, if one's reasons for playing have a moral basis, and people are not used as means, using force on or targeting guilty parties (those who choose to play the game and those who are guilty of true moral wrongs) is not "ruthless."

For example, if Sansa were to realize LF for what he truly is, it wouldn't be "ruthless" to kill him directly. By contrast, if Sansa killed SR in order to expose LF, this would be ruthless, because SR would be a pawn to advance her ends.

I think a lack of ruthlessness makes the game a bit less efficient to play, but ruthlessness is not truly requisite-- it's more of a shortcut imo. I think in order to play this way, it requires a lot of creativity and a very good understanding of people, how they play the game, anticipating moves, and being able to connect the bigger picture. I'd imagine that to play this way, a lot could be accomplished by manipulating targeted parties to hoist themselves with their own petard, letting them be the cause of their own downfall.

I'm not sure that Sansa is or will be at the level of mastermind playing this way would require. I just don't think that "player" and "non-ruthless" are inherently incompatible.

[Le Dragone]

For example, if Sansa were to realize LF for what he truly is, it wouldn't be "ruthless" to kill him directly. By contrast, if Sansa killed SR in order to expose LF, this would be ruthless, because SR would be a pawn to advance her ends.

:agree: Sansa might kill LF to save herself and SR from him, but that doesn't make her 'ruthless' as in Tywin/LF. Killing SR to score political points is a completely different story though, and I can't see her doing it.

[Mladen]

I'm not sure that Sansa is or will be at the level of mastermind playing this way would require. I just don't think that "player" and "non-ruthless" are inherently incompatible.

This, I can't say how much I agree with you. And as always, you shame all of us with your great insight...

Now, let we go generation back to Sansa's father. He certainly wasn't the player, or if he was he was bad in it. But, if we assume R+L=J, then Ned has been playing entire country for 14 years. Keeping it a secret from Varys and his spies was certainly a job only few men would ever be successful in.

Also, remember Game can be played on different ways. What if Sansa choose compassion, love and decency as her policy? We would say she is doomed already, but heck, if LF start acting against SR and Sansa stops him, it won't be her smartness or cruelty, but her heart and compassion. Love is powerful motivator in Game... Who can tell us with certainty that the way to victory in Game of Thrones isn't actually road of human decency? After all, GRRM did show us how romantic soul he is...

[juanml82]

Snip

There is a war going on. None can lead a kingdom into war without being ruthless.

I think if someone is thinking these novels are about a paragon of virtue winning through the power of love, then they are reading the wrong books