Will Sansa slowly turn into Cersei? I think so.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

The problem I'm having is with this persistent idea that "mastermind player" by necessity must mean that one is ruthless.

I guess I have the more fundamental problem of picturing Sansa being a "mastermind" at anything.

[nirolo]

Okay. The amount of bashing being directed at one poster is getting ridiculous.

First, Newstar, you have a lovely writing style. I'd much rather read what you have to say than the crap I produce.

Second, It seems many oppose the idea of Sansa becoming Cersei 2.0 due to the belief that Sansa inherently lacks the potential to become ruthless and cruel. I have a hard time believing this. Things change. Sansa has already lost her innocence. Now that she's under the tutelage of LF, it does make sense that her conscious might be the next thing to go. Not saying that it will, but it is a possibility that is hard to ignore.

Need to think more on this topic.

I guess I have the more fundamental problem of picturing Sansa being a "mastermind" at anything.

Welcome to the GenChat, FLoW.

[Newstar]

I guess I have the more fundamental problem of picturing Sansa being a "mastermind" at anything.

Well, stranger things have happened in these books--Dany's arc, for one--but I do wonder if Littlefinger being a genius with numbers and Sansa by her own admission being hopeless at sums might be a sly wink from GRRM that Sansa is not equipped to fill Littlefinger's shoes. (Not that she needs to fill Littlefinger's shoes to be instrumental in his downfall, but it might lead the skeptical reader to wonder about Sansa's potential to become Littlefinger 2.0 when she's crucially lacking in the ability he leveraged to attain much of his current success, an ability often associated with raw intelligence.)

Okay. The amount of bashing being directed at one poster is getting ridiculous.

Naw, man, 's fine. Florina Stark is cool beans.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Well, stranger things have happened in these books--Dany's arc, for one--but I do wonder if Littlefinger being a genius with numbers and Sansa by her own admission being hopeless at sums might be a sly wink from GRRM that Sansa is not equipped to fill Littlefinger's shoes.

One of the standard fantasy tropes is that nobody is really ordinary, and in that world, Sansa could be expected to develop into some brilliant "player" or something. But GRRM tends not to follow such tropes, and it is entirely possible -- I'd say likely -- that what we've seen so far from her is likely what we're going to keep seeing. That's she's a rather ordinary, unremarkable person who is simply not equipped to engage in clever word play, geopolitics, and intricate scheming. She's got a fundamental decency that might lead her to the right course if circumstances permit, but I think it would be horribly unrealistic for her to suddenly become something she hasn't really been in the whole series.

People who aren't that bright, aggressive, etc.. generally don't become such just by handing around people who are.

My guess is that her big event won't be anything spectacular, but perhaps that decency and memory of her family will make Littlefinger's manipulation of her fail in a critical aspect or two.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

One of the standard fantasy tropes is that nobody is really ordinary, and in that world, Sansa could be expected to develop into some brilliant "player" or something. But GRRM tends not to follow such tropes, and it is entirely possible -- I'd say likely -- that what we've seen so far from her is likely what we're going to keep seeing. That's she's a rather ordinary, unremarkable person who is simply not equipped to engage in clever word play, geopolitics, and intricate scheming. She's got a fundamental decency that might lead her to the right course if circumstances permit, but I think it would be horribly unrealistic for her to suddenly become something she hasn't really been in the whole series.

People who aren't that bright, aggressive, etc.. generally don't become such just by handing around people who are.

My guess is that her big event won't be anything spectacular, but perhaps that decency and memory of her family will make Littlefinger's manipulation of her fail in a critical aspect or two.

:agree:

[SeanF]

The thread started off as a Sansa/Cersei comparison thread, but it seems to have turned into a discussion of whether one needs to be a cruel and ruthless player to be a competent player...either in ASOIAF or in general, and/or whether Sansa can be a player who can succeed without resorting to cruel and ruthless methods. Maybe someone should start a new thread on that theme, because as it is, the discussion's pretty off-topic compared to the question the OP was asking.

Mercy, good works, and the appearance of compassion, can all be deployed as useful tactics in the Game, but they won't win the Game on their own.

[Dornishpenguin]

I do think that Sansa is fairly bright though. I doubt that she will be the next LF/Varys combined, but she will be somewhat competent (definitely more so than Cersei at the very least), and at least be able to recognize that there is a "game of thrones" unlike Ned.

To me, she started out as the textbook case of the stereotypical young preteen-teen girl who does everything in her power to please the people around her, to her own detriment. Even Arya acknowledges that she was talented in their lessons (which I'm assuming included foreign languages, geography, history etc) so she at least had some brains. However, I think Sansa grew up mostly being praised for things that didn't require as much brainpower such as her beauty and manners, so she chose to cultivate those the most. While I think the fact that she admitted that she was not good at math could be a sly nod to the fact that she's not going to become LF, it could also just have been a detail to make her as traditionally "girly" as possible. Even today, higher level math and science classes tend to be majority male, while the liberal arts (ie- English, Philosophy, etc.) are predominantly female.

That does not necessarily mean that she isn't intelligent. Sansa is at least not as stupid as others seem to think she is, which she realizes works in her advantage. She may not be a genius, but a lot of success is knowing how to apply your knowledge and how to work the system. Even if math skills are a sign of raw intelligence, you need to know how to apply them and work on weaker subjects. An Engineering or Math major who graduated as valedictorian but without the skills to write a decent cover letter or interact with people won't rise as far as a more well rounded salutatorian. The same goes for an English major who can't do basic college level math and won't work hard on it. While LF got his post partly due to his math skill, it was because he knew where and how to apply it that he rose through the ranks. Maybe under LF's tutelage, Sansa could become halfway decent at math, even if she might never be Master of Coin.

I'm kind of rambling, but basically, growing up Sansa did not have many real incentives to think outside the box, or to work on her math skills. Based on her curriculum, I think she was considered clever and accomplished, but she was happy to stay constrained by society since she was rewarded for it. Now, she actually has an opportunity to get a real education. With the right experiences, training and birth, a person does not necessarily have to be a genius to be a very capable player of the game.

[chrisdaw]

I'm 50/50 on if Sansa will kill SR or not, but I do believe however it plays out she will end up emerging from the Vale having shed LF and holding the greatest sway over their forces.

To theorise how this may come to be without her being involved in murdering SR or SR dying at all I think there's a possibility she may play a victim of LF. She may out LF's plan to take control of the Vale through her by murdering SR. She can say she was in his power and that she was afraid of him. She can then position herself as SR's natural guardian, the elder cousin who defended him from evil LF's plans. Conveniently she is SR's favourite and the only one who is capable of exercising some of measure of control over him.

Then by extension, with the addition of being outed as a true daughter of WF, the Vale's natural ally, the daughter of their former Lord's great friend she may be able to take control.

[The Ash Tree]

Damn, the Sansa Fan Club has had a rough few days. How many hours have you wasted responding to troll threads in just the past week?

I know, it's getting really ridiculous. All trolls should be banned on first offense.

[para]

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

Actually if you haven't heard GRRM's often-quoted promise of a "bittersweet" ending, well... welcome to the board. But even if you believe GRRM to be a liar who lies and we are looking at a bitter-bitter ending, narratively it is more likely that the White Walkers run over Westeros (the "rocks fall, everyone dies" ending) than LF or Cersei winning the Game.

Those ruthless killer-players are all set up for a deep fall. Cersei is already half there, Oleanna's ambitions are tied to the Lannisters' fortunes, Varys is putting a lot of effort in Aegon (while the other Targ pretender has dragons and he has no control over Aegon, actually) and LF is telling Sansa how he is first gonna murder her cousin and then marry her to a douchebag. Tyrion's a kinslayer.

No doubt, we are looking at ruthless killers. But we are not looking at a bunch of likely winners.

Of course, the Game can be only won if at the right moment you are cold and calculating. ASOIAF is not gonna be a re-write of Gandhi's biography after all. But to hold up the people who are currently playing the Game in Westeros as successful is rubbish. It is speculative, especially in the light of them gambling on things that we know have little chance of ultimate success.

So to argue that Sansa can only be successful she is like a bunch of people who are unlikely to be successful in the end.... that makes no sense.

[Mladen]

There is a considerable difference between looking at Sansa's character more objectively and knowing her flaws and um...taking pot shots at the character and her fans at every chance.

<_<

Amen to this... If I need objective analysis of Sansa's character, neither mine nor Newstar's analysis would ever be on that list... :)

It gets a bit tedious when the same arguments keep getting made, despite there being very little textual support for them:

1. Sansa's character will always be the same as it was in ACOK, so whatever positive traits she shows in ACOK she will continue to demonstrate throughout the remainder of the books (...even though this is not true of any other character, most of whom, even the "good" ones, undergo radical transformations in personality, outlook, and morality.)

2. Sansa will be a competent yet compassionate player (...even though no such animal exists in the books and GRRM has gone to some pains to indicate that competence and compassion are mutually exclusive when it comes to the game of thrones).

3. Sansa's caring for Sweetrobin is entirely positive and reflective of her inner goodness and sweetness (...even though GRRM hints strongly that Sansa values Littlefinger's advice and guidance above Sweetrobin's wellbeing and has little use for Colemon's warning about Sweetrobin's health, hardly the attitude of a concerned or compassionate guardian).

4. Sansa has independent claims to the Vale and to Casterly Rock (...even though this is demonstrably untrue).

And so on. This list is just from this thread; I can't even quote individual posters because several have made one, two, three, or even all of these points...which is pretty depressing in of itself. One could do another list of listing off many of the predicted popular outcomes for Sansa and explaining why they have very little textual support as well, but that would take longer.

And ever worse when those that claim there are no textual proof ignore the very fact there are actually proofs for many claims.

1. Sansa has showed many positive traits during entire ASOIAF. "I will make them love me" resonates with the fact she so swiftly and easily adapted to her new status as bastard. Her care of Lancel can easily parallel her care for Sweetrobin. Let us also not forget that she is the only one that truly can control that boy, that she helps him with every given occasion, that she practicly took the role of his mother. Furthermore, her stepping up during Blackwater battle is wonderfully paralleling her almost-ladyship of the House status in Eyrie. So, I wouldn't stay that her positive traits were stuck in ACOK. They just grew up, as she did.

2. Wrong. If anything, GRRM showed us that there has to be balance between mercy and agressiveness. Why did Tywin has to die? Why do we all believe Boltons and Freys will soon be over? Because they played the Game not realizing that there are other ways to ensure fealty. Look at Starks. Destroyed House, with persumably no male heirs, and yet loyalty of their bannermen is astonishing. I would say that mercy, compassion and ability to help others in need is significant portion of what good player must have.

3. And GRRM also hints strongly how much she cares for him, even though she finds him annoying. You think that all those people in Eyrie didn't notice how good care she has provided for the boy. Yes, she is aware of the boy's political status, something Sansa believes Colemon isn't. And whether she is indeed doing against SR's good, it remains to be proved with much better proofs than that one situation.

4. I personally would never, ever claim such ridiculuous thoughts...

And we can do another list. List of all the hate posts Sansa recieves. Only, your job would, unlike ours, would be much easier...

[TheCasualObserver]

I think a very clear distinction is made between Cersei and Sansa during their individual AFFC chapters. At ten Cersei was killing her childhood friends because she could. Sansa is thirteen, has had her entire family murdered and yet still shows sweetness and patience with SR who is, I think we can all agree, very annoying. Whether she kills him or not, she's nothing like Cersei. If you mean "Cersei 2.0" in the sense that Sansa will become a plotter then all I can say is this: how effective a plotter and manipulator is Cersei anyway? Not very. I believe Sansa has the potential to be more impactful on the political stage and more forgiving a person.

[Ice Turtle]

I know, it's getting really ridiculous. All trolls should be banned on first offense.

I don't see OP as a troll. Criticizing characters and theorize about their less than rainbows-and-unicorns-like future is allowed. Even if it makes Sansa fan-club unhappy. I have often feeling that some people think than anything that isn't Sansa worship should be banned. So far making Sansa fan-club happy isn't purpose of this forum. There are other people too. They have right to have their opinion even about Sansa. They even have right to post it.

To answer OP, I don't think that Sansa is half as passionate as Cersei. I don't think she will ever be that cruel but I can see her turning into rather cold,cynical and opportunistic person.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Well, stranger things have happened in these books--Dany's arc, for one--

Yes, let's look at Dany's arc. Many posters have used Sansa's quotes of "I will make them love me" and "I would give them bread" as examples of her good nature and they are but they are also the cliched trope of good guy becomes king ad does good things. In other words, Aragorn, and we know Martin isn't writing that type of story. Dany's arc shows this clearly. She wants to do good and goes so far as freeing hundreds of thousands. They love her! But now she wants to give them bread and she can't. Using Sansa's quotes from ACoK is fine to illustrate her thinking and intent then but hardly means she thinks that now or would be able to make her intent become action.

As for the OP, will Sansa's personality become bitter and jaded as Cersei? Possibly. Will she become paranoid and evil as a result? I doubt it however, she is being placed in very hard situations that would make anyone paranoid. Still, I think Sansa will dodge that. Will she want power more than anything else and be willing to do anything to get it, especially acting ruthless and mean? No, I don't see that happening for Sansa. She really doesn't seem interested in power or the game.

[SeanF]

Actually if you haven't heard GRRM's often-quoted promise of a "bittersweet" ending, well... welcome to the board. But even if you believe GRRM to be a liar who lies and we are looking at a bitter-bitter ending, narratively it is more likely that the White Walkers run over Westeros (the "rocks fall, everyone dies" ending) than LF or Cersei winning the Game.

What's a "bittersweet ending?". For example, Dany saving Westeros from the Others, and then persecuting any family associated with the overthrow of her father, would be bittersweet, but certainly not a happy ending.

[Ice Turtle]

I wasn't talking about the OP, but in general. Mylol gets a lot of hate over things that she had no vontrol over whatsoever.

I apologize for misunderstanding you than,still I have a feeling that we would have hard time finding understanding what is and what isn't troll.

[Dicer]

I guess I have the more fundamental problem of picturing Sansa being a "mastermind" at anything.

:agree:

It always baffles me when readers talk about Sansa being a player. The Sansa we saw in AFfC is nowhere near becoming a player. She gets a couple of lessons from LF sure. That may make her less naive, but the idea that she is going to outplay LF or become a 13 yr old LF 2.0 playing the game against the likes of Varys, QOT, Tyrion etc. just boggles the mind.

Unless GRRM spends atleast half of TWoW on Sansa (Like he did with Jon and Dany in ADwD), I find it hard to imagine Sansa even as a small time player like Cersei. I think we will see more of her going along with LF's nefarious plans which may involve some morally dubious choices (SweetRobin), until she gets to know LF's villainy. And when she does, I get the feeling that it will be a spur of the moment incident when she gets rid of LF or she will look the other way when someone else gets rid of LF (Like she did with Marillion)

[The Ash Tree]

:agree:

It always baffles me when readers talk about Sansa being a player. The Sansa we saw in AFfC is nowhere near becoming a player. She gets a couple of lessons from LF sure. That may make her less naive, but the idea that she is going to outplay LF or become a 13 yr old LF 2.0 playing the game against the likes of Varys, QOT, Tyrion etc. just boggles the mind.

Unless GRRM spends atleast half of TWoW on Sansa (Like he did with Jon and Dany in ADwD), I find it hard to imagine Sansa even as a small time player like Cersei. I think we will see more of her going along with LF's nefarious plans which may involve some morally dubious choices (SweetRobin), until she gets to know LF's villainy. And when she does, I get the feeling that it will be a spur of the moment incident when she gets rid of LF or she will look the other way when someone else gets rid of LF (Like she did with Marillion)

Don't forget that GRRM originally planned a five year gap where Sansa will be trained LF. I agree with you that she won't become LF 2.0 or Tywin, but in five years you can become a somewhat decent player.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

:agree:

It always baffles me when readers talk about Sansa being a player. The Sansa we saw in AFfC is nowhere near becoming a player. She gets a couple of lessons from LF sure. That may make her less naive, but the idea that she is going to outplay LF or become a 13 yr old LF 2.0 playing the game against the likes of Varys, QOT, Tyrion etc. just boggles the mind.

Unless GRRM spends atleast half of TWoW on Sansa (Like he did with Jon and Dany in ADwD), I find it hard to imagine Sansa even as a small time player like Cersei. I think we will see more of her going along with LF's nefarious plans which may involve some morally dubious choices (SweetRobin), until she gets to know LF's villainy. And when she does, I get the feeling that it will be a spur of the moment incident when she gets rid of LF or she will look the other way when someone else gets rid of LF (Like she did with Marillion)

I agree that Sansa has not shown the seeds of becoming LF/Varys 2.0 however, if Sansa is the one to take down LF, it won't be because she outplays him. It will most likely be because he let's his guard down and begins to open up to her. In other words, he may fall because of his own mistake that Sansa manipulates in order to be free of him.

She is less naive but it remains to be seen what direction she will take which is why I don't think she is Cersei 2.0 who's only ever had one path she wanted to take: the road to power. I suppose that's the same for LF and Varys, too. Not sure why, but I feel like if Sansa becomes a player it won't be because she wants to be but because she is dropped into the middle of the playing field and will have to play to survive.

ETA:

Don't forget that GRRM originally planned a five year gap where M'lol will be trained LF. I agree with you that she won't become LF 2.0 or Tywin, but in five years you can become a somewhat decent player.

This is true. I don't think Sansa has the natural inclination (or desire) to be like LF and Varys but she has shown enormous resilience and quick thinking. I have no doubt she could outplay Cersei and other minor players after her time with LF. But again, that may not be her future and doesn't seem to be the future she'd pick for herself when we last saw her in the books. It will be very interesting to see where she goes in the next books.

[Facebookless Man]

It's kind of sad GRRM spent so much effort creating deep, complex, conflicted characters just so that people would bicker endlessly about whether character X is Good or Evil, and pontificate about "players" who lack any sort of human feeling and calculate their every move.