Will Sansa slowly turn into Cersei? I think so.

[juanml82]

Actually, the Lannisters gained a ton of power simply by marriage -- marrying off Joff to Margaery essentially got them the throne. Sun Tzu said the greatest victories are the ones where you never have to fight a battle. Political victories can alter the balance of power to the point where the war is over before it begins.

The point was that different fronts saw different levels of morality. The Eastern Front was, by far, worse than the Western and North Africa. And that's because there was a deliberate effort not to descend into barbarism as a matter of policy.

That's true, but that's hardly a negative reflection on the morality of the commander, especially when compared to commanders who encourages excesses. And that's the point. It is entirely possible to be a war leader and still act with much greater morality than your foes, even if you're not perfect.

Well, the power the Lannister got depends on the armies of the Reach. As for the last paragraph, it's obviously true a war commander can act with less inmorality than others (not that the prisioners tortured for information, or the peasants who see their crops and meager belongings burnt and pillaged would care). The thing is, a war commander, say Jaime Lannister at the start of the Wot5K doesn't have a say in whether a war starts or not. His only option is to desert (and they are educated to a young age to do the opposite). However, someone who has a choice to join, start or restart a war, well, that person has the choice. And that peasants who lost everything he owned, the children who will grow without a father, mother or both, the incapacitated and maimed, the people starving because crops were lost and granaries burnt and those who die out of excesses, are all blood in their hands.

In other words, we can not claim Sansa will become a player and topple the Lannisters and Freys (or attempt to) while at the same time claim she is a morally white character. You can have one, or you can have the other, but you can't have both.

[Cruella]

Poor man should have had taken his valyrian steal dagger and beat it.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Always a possibility, agreed. But it does seem like a cheap "out" for an author to take.

I'm not an expert on Westeros currency, or comparisons to the middle ages, but here is Robb and Cat's conversation about this:

"We found where he'd been sleeping," Robb put in. "He had ninety silver stags in a leather bag buried beneath the straw."

"It's good to know my son's life was not sold cheaply," Catelyn said bitterly.

I would think, and Cat seems to agree, that ninety silver stags for a commoner, who appears to have no work and to be homeless, might be worth doing almost anything for. Would he ever, and I mean ever, have the opportunity to earn that much money in a feudal system?

I'm really curious now just how much that money could have changed his life and what he could accomplish with it, does anyone have an idea? Was the money truly worth the risks (i.e. his life) that Former Lord of Winterfell has already pointed out or is it simply implausible?

[Petyr Patter]

I always thought Catelyn was somewhat sarcastic with that remark, as 90 silvers wouldn't buy a horse.

Really, I just think Joffrey promised the man something more than silver once the deed was done. Maybe gold, maybe knighthood. I mean, if you are going to kill a Lord Parmount's son, killing him for the Crown Prince is who'd you want to do it for.

[David Selig]

90 stags isn't that much.

Of course, the dagger itself costs a fortune. But selling it safely would be quite tricky.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

'Will Sansa slowly turn into Cercei?'

I think we've all been misunderstanding this. GRRM has said that all the Stark children are wargs, but Sansa has yet to show this. Maybe she will warg into Cercei and become her. Imagine Cercei's final POV chapter as she watches helplessly from the back of her mind as her hands write a message to Jaime (who's 5 minutes away) to come quick and then her hands reach out to strangle her children. Sansa finally lets Cercei back into control as Jaime walks in to find her standing over their strangled children, so Cercei can fully experience the Valonqar prophecy.

[The Mother of The Others]

:drool: That was very whoa.

[AegonFan322]

This is going to sound sick, but I think it could actually be cool if Sansa becomes the next Tywin. It would be a cruel irony, and would be an interesting twist if the Starks, by destroying the Lannisters, merely take their place. The changes would go something like this:

1. Sansa helps kill Sweetrobin and gets the Lords of the Vale to execute Littlefinger for killing Lysa and Sweetrobin. Whether or not she marries Harry the Heir or murders him too to rule in her own right is unknown. (Keep in mind I am giving her plenty of time to develop on her own.)

2. She might get Sandor to serve her as her own personal Gregor Clegane. (He has shown the ability to do it for Joffrey, and he seems to care about her.) This puts an end to his redemptive arc, in a subversion of traditional storytelling.

3. Lady Stoneheart could simply be a foreshadowing of Sansa's eventual descent into darkness.

4. She can start to think of her father as a fool, forgetting his more positive traits and remembering only his weaknesses.

5. With the armies of the Vale, she retakes the North and Riverlands, first killing the Boltons, but then also putting all the Freys to the sword. A controversial moment occurs when Roslin and Olyvar Frey are brought out. Edmure, freed from the Lannisters, begs for their lives. Sansa, for the moment, agrees to spare them.

6. Sansa takes Casterly Rock and Storm's End, and captures all the Lannisters for an unknown purpose as of yet. When she reaches King's Landing, she meets Cersei, who knows it is all over, as her Tyrell allies have left her, and only don't join Sansa because she holds Margaery hostage. Sansa promises not to kill Tommen and Myrcella if the city surrenders to her.

7. On the steps of the Sept of Baelor, Sansa reveals her final move. In a cruel parody of Joffrey's treatment of her, she kills every Lannister still alive at this point, mostly the women and children, as the men were killed in battle. (Bonus points if she plays "The Rains of Castamere.") Keep in mind that actually, because Tywin and Joffrey are dead, all the Lannisters now living are the ones we like. (Like Genna and Dorna Swyft's children). She only spares Cersei, and forces her to watch as her children are brutally murdered in front of her. Even Cersei, formerly so cold, is shocked by Sansa's coldness, and may even realize how it is all Cersei's own fault, as she realizes Joffrey made Sansa this way. As Tommen is about to die, Sansa speaks of how (or thinks of how) Tommen is really just a younger Joffrey, and she needs to kill him. (The audience knows this is far from the truth.)

8. She brings Cersei and Edmure to Traitor's walk, and forces them to look at the heads of the Lannister family, plus two more heads: Olyvar and Roslin (and possibly her child by Edmure). Edmure becomes a broken man, as the love of his life and his child were murdered by his niece, making him powerless to avenge them. The audience should be reminded of Roose Bolton's question, can one avenge the killing of his family when it was done by other members of his family?

9. She has Sandor and perhaps someone like Lyn Corbray rape and murder Margaery Tyrell as vengeance for their helping the Lannisters. Loras swears revenge.

Now, this scenario ends one of two ways.

9. Sansa brings her remaining family to King's Landing. Arya and Rickon have become ready to accept her ways as the new Stark regime. But Jon Snow remains on the Wall, and gives any surviving Freys and Lannisters (Jaime or Lancel, perhaps) refuge on the Wall to spite his sister. The House of Stark of the Eyrie becomes the most powerful family in Westeros, but the most hated one too. The Lannisters become only a memory.The Tyrells help whoever comes to replace Sansa, only to find the next regime just as brutal as hers. In Westeros, only the cruel and brutal get to sit on the Iron Throne.

10. The more likely scenario is that Tyrion and Dany will arrive in Westeros after the massacre of the Lannisters. Tyrion meets Sansa, and is horrified to see that the sweet girl he once knew has become a monster. He and Dany kill her, and Ser Loras kills Sandor Clegane on the battlefield, before dying himself. Dany tries to pick up the pieces from the war, and finds Edmure Tully surprisingly helpful, as he explains he held no love for Sansa.

As one final point, I have an idea for how the story ends with Bran and the Others. I think the ultimate goal of the Others is they are an army controlled by the Children of the Forest, ready to purge Westeros of Men and reclaim it for the Children. They have hidden this from Bran Stark, but he finds out. However, as they show him how his family has been murdered because of how corrupt men are, he crosses the Despair Event Horizon, perhaps after humans kill Meera Reed, the love of his life. He takes control of the Others, and comes down to destroy the world that treated his family so cruelly. Fortunately, Jon is there to stop him, and slays him. Bran's last thought is of how Jon wanted to steal Winterfell from his Stark family. Jon can only weep at the loss of another brother he loved. Jon stays on the Wall, even as the other Crows leave. (The Others are gone for good?) He considers himself accursed.

So, that is my story of what happens to Sansa, which quickly became a dark, depressing, "Starks destroy everything" plotline. What do you think?

[David Selig]

You forgot the part where she gets a personality transplant, because all of these actions don't seem like Sansa at all.

[AegonFan322]

You forgot the part where she gets a personality transplant, because all of these actions don't seem like Sansa at all.

I admit, this seems more than a little out of character right now. I was assuming Sansa loses her s**t over the next two books. I would assume hanging out with people like Cersei and Littlefinger would be a bad influence on her. I admit, this isn't a likely twist, but it could be an interesting one.

[AegonFan322]

I think GRRM is gonna pull the old blindside on this one. We're lead to believe Sansa will kill SR and marry Harry, just as LF wants, but I think that if she's gonna kill someone (which I'm still not sure) it's gonna be Harry, throwing a wrench on LF's plans and blaming him somehow.

Then she will use her influence on SR to have the Vale. We already know she's pretty much the only person that kid listens to, so I think that will play a part.

But I just remembered GRRM managed to throw a wildcard into the mix in her last chapter: the Mad Mouse. He could create all kinds of trouble, I think.

BTW, welcome to the forums, OP :cheers:

 

Thanks for reminding me about the Mad Mouse. I completely forgot he existed. PS: I think I know what the Mad Mouse is there for. We know he's searching for Sansa Stark, because he plans to make good on the bounty Varys offered when she first disappeared. However, he is not a random hedge knight. I think he is secretly working for Varys. He is going to inform Varys (aka Team Aegon) that Sansa is in the Vale. What Varys will do with the information is up to George RR Martin.

[SeanF]

RenlyFan322

 

Now you come to mention it, those acts all seem entirely in character for Sansa.  She's worse than Caligula.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

With Littlefinger as her mentor/sugar daddy/trusted companion I would say her chances of becoming evil increase with every day that passes.

[SeanF]

If anything, she's probably Littlefinger's tutor in evil.

[DirewolfDubz]

To be honest its a road I would like to see Sansa go down, Instead of being the victim of all thats went on she actually becomes pritty cruel mirroring Cersei, Great Shout

[ambi76]

I never understood this idea. I mean you people (believing this) have actually read both Sansa and Cersei POV's, right? How the fuck does that even ... I don't ... what? :dunno:

 

Oh, it's the olde revenge fantasy? I thought we already got Arya for that. :devil:

[marsyao]

I feel like Sansa will become the next Cersei under Petyr. Supposedly, she has a very controversial chapter in The Winds of Winter. I think she is going to smother Robert Arryn, and blame it on his seizures so Harry the Heir (her betrothed) can become Lord of the Vale. Petyr will then mold her into Cersei 2.0. With all the emotional trauma she's been through, she flips the switch and becomes completely ruthless. When Petyr has nothing left to teach her, she kills him too for betraying Ned. Petyr never sees it coming because he still sees Cat when he looks at her and is blind to the monster he created. It just seems like the natural evolution for her character. She always wanted to be like Cersei, and she will be.

Thoughts?

 

I always wonder why either Sansa or little finger want Robert Arryn died, come on that boy would be a perfect figurehead, on the other hand, Harry the Heir is a warrior and has the back of his own house and other nobles in the Vale, if he ever become the Lord Paramont, I do not believe anyone could control him, he would be his own master.

For Sansa, no she would not be another Cersei, for one thing, she may go to dark side, but she was raise right and more important, she is not stupid, so she may become a bad woman, but she would not be another Cersei

[OuttaOldtown]

I think all the posters who have said that Sansa can never become Cersei 2.0 because she lacks Cersei's established psychopathic tendencies are missing the OP's point, if I understood the OP correctly. It's not whether Sansa will start abusing infants, murdering her BFF on the slightest of pretenses, and beginning a slow slide into insanity. It's whether she will become as ruthless as Cersei.

A lot of posters are saying "Sansa won't be ruthless, she'll just become a player." Hahaha, have you even been reading the books? What do you think the players do? What do you think the Queen of Thorns did when it was required of her? That's right: frame an innocent child (Sansa) for regicide. What do you think Littlefinger has done? Killed many, tried to kill more, and helped cause and pour gasoline on a war that's killed thousands for no other reason than personal gain. What do you think the oh-so-benevolent Varys has done, except murder Kevan and Pycelle and keep himself well stocked in children he insists must be mutilated for his own purposes?

If Sansa's going to follow in their footsteps and become a player worth her salt, she's going to have to do the same: cause others' deaths (even those who've done nothing to harm her) or resort to outright murder, and not give two shits about it. There's no room for decent, compassionate Neds in this game, and if you think there is, you clearly haven't been paying attention. It's no coincidence that the darker Tyrion gets as a character--the less he cares about his family, the more willing he is to lie through his teeth, the less concerned he is about murder--the better he's able to maneuver as a player.





That was in ACOK, three books ago, though, when Sansa was a markedly different sort of person (who would surely never dream of lying to condemn an innocent man to death). Four books ago, if you'll recall, she wanted nothing more than to marry Joffrey. Characters change in these books, especially the younger ones, and their outlooks are highly malleable (look at how much Arya's viewpoint has changed in five books). Having Sansa initially express disdain for Cersei's cynical outlook and then, as a result of Littlefinger's teachings and her experiences in the Vale, cycle around to the same point of view would be very GRRM and would be a good marker of her character development.

So saying "Sansa thought X in ACOK, so she'll never think Y in the future" is a pretty flimsy argument. (I kind of feel the same way about the AFFC "Lies and Arbour Gold" quote from an earlier chapter in the book, since it's held up as proof positive that Sansa will never succumb to his infuence when the last Alayne chapter in AFFC subtly shows Sansa slowly succumbing to his influence.)

GRRM loves putting the screws to his characters and putting them in impossible situations where they do things they once never would have dreamt of doing or would have recoiled from doing (Tyrion learning how to joust on a pig to save his life, Brienne going back on her word to save Pod's life, etc.). I think in AFFC he's setting up an equally difficult, impossible situation for Sansa where she turns into the sort of person who once would have disgusted her. We shall see. Arya was once disgusted by the Hound's casual attitude towards killing, too.



I think the blindside will be that Sansa will actually sign on to Littlefinger's plan, although it will be with the appropriate amount of "What choice do I have?" and hand-wringing.

I agree with this, some fans of Sansa want it both ways. To be this great player & still remain good hearted. To find answers I always look to the beginning, and her hearts desire is to find that 'Prince Charming'. My feeling is GRRM will pull the rug out on Sansa before it all over & she will do immoral things on her way there. A similar fate as Lady perhaps...

[SeanF]

Joking aside, Sansa will have to become cunning and ruthless to be a successful player.

 

But, I can't see her becoming so cruel as to order Cersei's children to be killed while she watches, or to order the rape of Margaery, or to murder her uncle's wife.

[Mladen]

Joking aside, Sansa will have to become cunning and ruthless to be a successful player.

 

But, I can't see her becoming so cruel as to order Cersei's children to be killed while she watches, or to order the rape of Margaery, or to murder her uncle's wife.

 

Cunning? If we use it as the other word for smart, yes. Ruthless, not so much.

 

The problem in how we see Game is in fact that Ned's POV told us to think of it as inherently bad. Hence, all players are bad. The thing is, well, different. To be a successful player, you have to understand several things, one of which most definitely is to realize that people will do bad things and that you have to be ready on everything. The thing with Ned is that he lost because he was stupid, not lacking ruthlessness. Cersei is self-destroying out of her idiocy. Generally, all of these great "players" who failed at some point, can blame stupidity.

 

Daenerys conquered cities without becoming cruel monster. Margaery played the entire city with her humanitarian game. Why people think Sansa will transform into Cersei so she could play the Game is beyond me. She most certainly will not be the white dove of Game of Thrones, but playing Game doesn't necessarily means you are evil. The Game itself depends on the player.