The Expanse optioned for Television Series

[Hayyoth]

'Riffing off Kirk'?

 

Well, they're both guys, and they're both in command of a spaceship... after that, um, I got nothin'.

OK sure

 

1) They're both from the American mid west

2) They both have a history of rampant womanizing

3) They both had command of a spaceship unexpectedly thrust upon them

4) They both ended up being brilliant leaders

5) They both have serious problems with authority

6) They're both impulsive 'think out of the box do the unexpected' in tight situations type of captains.

 

Shall I go on? I'm honestly amazed you didn't see where they were coming from with Holden. OK Holden doesn't have a sidekick with pointy ears and he's nowhere near as arrogant as Kirk, but I could see the glaring similarities.

 

Sorry, attempted to punch a superior officer is such a huge difference. And my point is they all are possessing of technical skills which required explaining why they were there. People skills are not the same as technical skills, the dishonorable discharge was all that was needed to explain him being there.

I'd say commanding a space ship in various battles against unbelievable odds and coming out alive demand a bit more than people skills. A deep knowledge of tactics and strategy for a start. Clearly Holden was a very capable individual before he took command of the Martian ship, again I'm at a loss to know where you're getting this stuff.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

OK sure

 

1) They're both from the American mid west

2) They both have a history of rampant womanizing

3) They both had command of a spaceship unexpectedly thrust upon them

4) They both ended up being brilliant leaders

5) They both have serious problems with authority

6) They're both impulsive 'think out of the box do the unexpected' in tight situations type of captains.

 

Shall I go on? I'm honestly amazed you didn't see where they were coming from with Holden. OK Holden doesn't have a sidekick with pointy ears and he's nowhere near as arrogant as Kirk, but I could see the glaring similarities.

 

I'd say commanding a space ship in various battles against unbelievable odds and coming out alive demand a bit more than people skills. A deep knowledge of tactics and strategy for a start. Clearly Holden was a very capable individual before he took command of the Martian ship, again I'm at a loss to know where you're getting this stuff.

 

 Yeah, I have to agree with the Kirk comparison to a point. He doesn't quite have the ego of James T, but there are enough similarities to make the connection. I kind of find the relationship between the crew members to be somewhat reminiscent of the original Star Trek as well. Given that they are from disparate social groups (Belter, Martian, Earther, etc) yet are fiercely loyal to one another is somewhat Trekish. 

 

 I think that much like Kirk, Holden benefits from commanding an extremely talented crew. They make him look good basically. Seems to me that Holden gets them into trouble more so than pulling them out of it, particularly in the early novels.

[mormont]

OK sure
 
1) They're both from the American mid west
2) They both have a history of rampant womanizing
3) They both had command of a spaceship unexpectedly thrust upon them
4) They both ended up being brilliant leaders
5) They both have serious problems with authority
6) They're both impulsive 'think out of the box do the unexpected' in tight situations type of captains.

 
1. True but unconvincing as a deliberate similarity, particularly as it's not really important to either character.
 
2. Really? Kirk does. All sorts of women that appear in Trek turn out to be old flames, or fall for Kirk, and he reciprocates.
 
Holden, unless I recall wrongly, has had very few sexual relationships that we know about, has never encountered a woman from his past, ranges from oblivious to uninterested when a woman other than Naomi flirts with him, and has pretty much been in a constant monogamous relationship for the whole series. If this was supposed to be a deliberate parallel, it's an odd choice to put the character in that relationship and have him be so devoted to it.
 
3. Reboot Kirk did, classic Kirk didn't. Again, seems thin as a deliberate parallel.
 
4. This is akin to saying they're both in command of a ship. Yeah, they're both charismatic. Leader characters tend to be, just as scientist characters tend to be intelligent.
 
5. The extent to which this was originally true of Kirk has been exaggerated, but yeah, it's part of the character now. Still, not exactly a unique identifier. By-the-book characters don't make good protagonists.
 
6. See 5.
 

Shall I go on?

 

I think you'll have to. What we've got so far is, they're both protagonists in a sci-fi story and they're from the midwest. I'm unconvinced.

 

ETA - put it this way. How many of the above apply to Holden and Kirk, but not to, say, Mal Reynolds?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 2. Really? Kirk does. All sorts of women that appear in Trek turn out to be old flames, or fall for Kirk, and he reciprocates.
 
Holden, unless I recall wrongly, has had very few sexual relationships that we know about, has never encountered a woman from his past, ranges from oblivious to uninterested when a woman other than Naomi flirts with him, and has pretty much been in a constant monogamous relationship for the whole series. If this was supposed to be a deliberate parallel, it's an odd choice to put the character in that relationship and have him be so devoted to it.
 
 
5. The extent to which this was originally true of Kirk has been exaggerated, but yeah, it's part of the character now. Still, not exactly a unique identifier. By-the-book characters don't make good protagonists.
 

 

 2) Holden has evolved into a monogamist, yes, but he is initially presented as a womanizer. He recognizes it as a character flaw in himself, and has referred to his old ways numerous times throughout the series. Holden has certainly matured in this area, but there is some similarity there.

 

 5) I don't think this is an exaggeration at all. Kirk has time and time again ignored Federation orders and protocols to do what he has believed to be the right thing. There are countless examples of this throughout the original run of the TV series and the movies.

 

 

 I know Daniel Abraham has posted on these threads in the past. It would be nice to hear from the authors as to whether or not these similarities were deliberate or just happenstance. 

[Liffguard]

I don't think Holden is a direct homage to Kirk so much as that they're both drawing inspiration from the same basic archetype.

[RedEyedGhost]

 I know Daniel Abraham has posted on these threads in the past. It would be nice to hear from the authors as to whether or not these similarities were deliberate or just happenstance. 

 

I don't think he's ever posted in the Entertainment subforum, so the conversation might need to be moved over to one of the threads in Lit if you want to draw his attention. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 

I don't think he's ever posted in the Entertainment subforum, so the conversation might need to be moved over to one of the threads in Lit if you want to draw his attention. 

 

 Ah, well I wouldn't want to hound him regarding it, but it would be cool if he happened to come across it.

[Relic]

 

 

 I know Daniel Abraham has posted on these threads in the past. It would be nice to hear from the authors as to whether or not these similarities were deliberate or just happenstance. 

 

 

Friend him on facebook =P Me and Danny are totally buds there (altho he has no freakin idea who i am haha)

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I don't think Holden is a direct homage to Kirk so much as that they're both drawing inspiration from the same basic archetype.

 

 I think you're probably right, but there are enough similarities that I do think it's a possibility.

[mormont]

2) Holden has evolved into a monogamist, yes, but he is initially presented as a womanizer. He recognizes it as a character flaw in himself, and has referred to his old ways numerous times throughout the series. Holden has certainly matured in this area, but there is some similarity there.

 
It's been a while since I read the earlier books, but so far as I recall there's no reference to this in either of the last two books. I'm struggling to remember any reference to it at all, which suggests that 'numerous times' might be an exaggeration. Or that I'm really inattentive. One of the two. :P
 

5) I don't think this is an exaggeration at all. Kirk has time and time again ignored Federation orders and protocols to do what he has believed to be the right thing. There are countless examples of this throughout the original run of the TV series and the movies

 
It's an interesting point. Go over the the Tor.com TOS rewatch and the writer there points out how late the idea of 'Kirk has a problem with authority' develops: basically, it's not until the movies that it really becomes a thing. But, as I say, it's now become such a part of the public image of Kirk that in effect, yeah, it's part of the character, to the point where it's legitimate as a comparison here.
 

I don't think Holden is a direct homage to Kirk so much as that they're both drawing inspiration from the same basic archetype.

Yeah, I think you have to go to some of these character traits to make this kind of story work.

[Pliskin]

 
It's been a while since I read the earlier books, but so far as I recall there's no reference to this in either of the last two books. I'm struggling to remember any reference to it at all, which suggests that 'numerous times' might be an exaggeration. Or that I'm really inattentive. One of the two. :P

It's stated in the first book that every woman in the Cant was in love with him.

I don't see him as a "womanizer" though. He seemed to seek some sort of monogamy even before Naomi. His problem was that he had no idea what serious relationship really meant.

[karaddin]

I'd say commanding a space ship in various battles against unbelievable odds and coming out alive demand a bit more than people skills. A deep knowledge of tactics and strategy for a start. Clearly Holden was a very capable individual before he took command of the Martian ship, again I'm at a loss to know where you're getting this stuff.

What brilliant battle tactics and strategy does Holden show to get them to come out of these things? My memory is that it's almost exclusively the skill of his crew that pulls them through - a brilliant pilot (which was once again made clear this last book with the racing yacht), probably the best systems engineer alive who manages to get the ship to do things it shouldn't and fast, and a great mech engineer that manages to patch up damage well enough to keep them going.

Holden holds the crew together and mostly decides the moral compass of what they are going to do, so yeah I call it people skills. But even if it was incredible battle tactics, that's not something easily assessed prior to the end of the Cant - unlike technical skills which can be tested for and the other 3 are all off the charts in their areas. Which is the point that you repeatedly ignore.

[AndrewJ]

 
It's been a while since I read the earlier books, but so far as I recall there's no reference to this in either of the last two books. I'm struggling to remember any reference to it at all, which suggests that 'numerous times' might be an exaggeration. Or that I'm really inattentive. One of the two. :P

 

I read it a few weeks ago. And yeah, Naomi rejects his affections at first, because she says he's always chased anything in a pretty skirt, convinces himself that he's madly in love with the current subject of his attentions and then gets bored of her a few weeks later. She said she was fine to have a fling with him, was fine to have a real relationship with him, but refused to be the subject of his "undying love' for as long as it was new and shiny, only to be cast aside once it wore off.

[Hayyoth]

 
1. True but unconvincing as a deliberate similarity, particularly as it's not really important to either character.
 
2. Really? Kirk does. All sorts of women that appear in Trek turn out to be old flames, or fall for Kirk, and he reciprocates.
 
Holden, unless I recall wrongly, has had very few sexual relationships that we know about, has never encountered a woman from his past, ranges from oblivious to uninterested when a woman other than Naomi flirts with him, and has pretty much been in a constant monogamous relationship for the whole series. If this was supposed to be a deliberate parallel, it's an odd choice to put the character in that relationship and have him be so devoted to it.
 
3. Reboot Kirk did, classic Kirk didn't. Again, seems thin as a deliberate parallel.
 
4. This is akin to saying they're both in command of a ship. Yeah, they're both charismatic. Leader characters tend to be, just as scientist characters tend to be intelligent.
 
5. The extent to which this was originally true of Kirk has been exaggerated, but yeah, it's part of the character now. Still, not exactly a unique identifier. By-the-book characters don't make good protagonists.
 
6. See 5.
 

 

I think you'll have to. What we've got so far is, they're both protagonists in a sci-fi story and they're from the midwest. I'm unconvinced.

 

ETA - put it this way. How many of the above apply to Holden and Kirk, but not to, say, Mal Reynolds?

Well there's also the physical description of Holden, seems pretty similar to Kirk. Good looking white dudes with sandy colored hair. Also both Kirk and Holden are VERY close to their first officers. Let's face it if Spock had been female......

[Black Wolf Smith]

Well as far as the debate over Kirk/Holden goes, there is this one guy that post on here sometimes that might have know something about this.

 

As far as me, I don't see anything other then the normal traits given to "Leaders/Lead Characters".

[red snow]

Well as far as the debate over Kirk/Holden goes, there is this one guy that post on here sometimes that might have know something about this.

 

As far as me, I don't see anything other then the normal traits given to "Leaders/Lead Characters".

 

It's not me ;)

 

But I agree that Holden is not based on Kirk but that they belong to the spectrum of "kirk-like" leaders. I use Kirk-like merely because he's the best known although I'm certain he's not the first. The Greeks probably had kirk-like leaders in their legends. Holden certainly isn't a caricature of Kirk which some of the comparisons seem to be making here.

[Howdyphillip]

I actually think that Holden resembles Mal Reynolds far more than he does Kirk, Let's look at some examples

 

 

Holden                                                       Mal                                                             Kirk 

 

No government allegiance                        No government allegiance                         Federation 

 

Leads a group of outlaws                          Leads a group of outlaws                          Leads a military vessel

 

Has abandoned political affiliation             Political affiliations have                            By and large still works for

with his home world                                   disbanded                                                 his home world's government

                                                                 (Browncoats forever !!!)

 

Will break laws for personal gain              Will break laws for personal gain              Will break laws, but only for what

                                                                                                                                   he believes to be the overall good

 

Monogamous                                            Not strictly monogamous but only             Is there anything that Kirk didn't screw?

                                                                  interested in one woman

 

Would do anything to save any                 Would do almost anything to save            Doesn't blink an eye when a redshirt

member of his crew                                  any member of his crew                            goes down on a weekly or movie basis

 

Shoots to kill                                              Shoots to kill                                              Sets phasers on stun

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, to have a completely epic discussion, can someone please throw Han Solo into this mix?

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Mal would have shot Dresden first

[Liffguard]

 Now, to have a completely epic discussion, can someone please throw Han Solo into this mix?

Mal Reynolds vs Han Solo vs James T Kirk vs Spike Spiegel vs Commander Shepard.

Go.

[Black Wolf Smith]

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrBTzZc8c5VdU4Av0BXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEwNzJpNmJwBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNyZWwtYm90?p=new+sy+fy+series&ei=UTF-8&fp=1&fr2=rs-bottom&fr=yfp-t-334-s

 

There was an article about the 4 new series based off Novels, that I was going to post, but now I can't find it. Besides "The Expanse" there is "Magicians" "Gateway" and "Childhood's End". Since I couldn't post that, I posted the above instead.