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R+L=J v 61


Stubby

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Thank you, and preceding posters, for making me think about this. Finally I begin to have an idea of how my Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth theory may be significant ;)

Yellow coat of arms, check. Hate for the Lannisters, check. The Ghost of High Heart's kissing little stunt, check... I'm officially intrigued.

Mother of God... :uhoh:

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Yellow coat of arms, check. Hate for the Lannisters, check. The Ghost of High Heart's kissing little stunt, check... I'm officially intrigued.

... this makes a surprising amount of sense.

Probably still crackpot, but still... I can see GRRM hiding Rhaegar's former suire directly under our noses, sneaky bastard that he is...

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Yellow coat of arms, check. Hate for the Lannisters, check. The Ghost of High Heart's kissing little stunt, check... I'm officially intrigued.

Yep. She even mentions bones (close enough to skulls?)

... this makes a surprising amount of sense.

Probably still crackpot, but still... I can see GRRM hiding Rhaegar's former suire directly under our noses, sneaky bastard that he is...

Yes-- I can see him chuckling about it, especially with the GoHH and her "kisses." I first proposed it as a lark, simply on the basis of the yellow cloak. I've since seen at least one person mention it in a thread as if it were fact :lol:

I saw that theory before and found it very intriguing. Where do we learn about Richard Lonmouth specifically?

He's mentioned in Meera's Harrenhal story (the knight of skulls and kisses) and Barristan mentions him to Dany as being a squire and close personal friend to Rhaegar. His arms are semi-cannon, which I assume to mean GRRM has described them. House words are "the choice is yours" I am waiting for Lem to say those words to someone (or to find where he already has) and then the deal will be sealed for me :) eta- One thing I've wondered is how it would be significant. The mention of people at Harrenhal in this thread was like a :idea: moment... he might actually have knowledge of the Tourney and even R+L. Hmmm...
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Yep. She even mentions bones (close enough to skulls?)

Yes-- I can see him chuckling about it, especially with the GoHH and her "kisses." I first proposed it as a lark, simply on the basis of the yellow cloak. I've since seen at least one person mention it in a thread as if it were fact :lol:

He's mentioned in Meera's Harrenhal story (the knight of skulls and kisses) and Barristan mentions him to Dany as being a squire and close personal friend to Rhaegar. His arms are semi-cannon, which I assume to mean GRRM has described them. House words are "the choice is yours" I am waiting for Lem to say those words to someone (or to find where he already has) and then the deal will be sealed for me :) eta- One thing I've wondered is how it would be significant. The mention of people at Harrenhal in this thread was like a :idea: moment... he might actually have knowledge of the Tourney and even R+L. Hmmm...

He knew Rhaegar well enough to be able to notice some... resemblance ;)

And the whole Brienne situation in her last AFfC pov is very much about a 'choice' ;)

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He knew Rhaegar well enough to be able to notice some... resemblance ;)

And the whole Brienne situation in her last AFfC pov is very much about a 'choice' ;)

You're right of course! In fact the word "choose" or "choice" is used five times on one page in that scene. :wideeyed:

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No but I need to taste the stew to tell if it is as savory as it looks. :cool4:

Yep, and there are still problems with R+L=J, not to mention alternative explanations that do work.

The Kingsguard at the TOJ were doing something they believed were their duty. Trying to protect the Targ with the best claim to the throne is a very good possibility, but not necessarily the real or only reason. If they were trying to protect R+L=J, there's no reason to fight Ned and his men. He was Lyanna's baby and Ned could have been expected to actually help them.

Then there's Ned Dayne. The whole Dayne angle makes no sense. Why name their heir after the man who killed Arthur Dayne, probably dishonored Ashara (he or his brother) and then redeemed himself by graciously agreeing to protect his own nephew? And why was Wylla not only left at Starfall, but also kept in a position of trust as the heir's wet-nurse?

It also bothers me that the TOJ is in Dorne, Elia's home, which is a singularly peculiar location to hide the woman and child who are a threat to the half-Dornish prince.

And there's the political fall-out: Both Rhaegar and Lyanna have to be pretty naive and selfish if they truly just eloped for twuu luvvv or some thousands of years old prophecy. Purlease.

May I suggest an alternative: Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been a love story, but it never went that far. Instead, it was used by some party who intended to remove Rhaegar to discredit him and cause problems for the Realm. (I believe Varys and the party he truly serves, but that's probably too much off topic). The plot was successful: Brandon believed the abduction and rape, called for Rhaegar's head and King Aerys murdered Lord Stark, his heir and asked for the heads of Ned and Robert. The whole thing set off a rebellion that had been formenting for some time.

It is possible that Rhaegar recognized the signs, that his father needed to be curbed or even replaced. And it's possible that enemies of the Targs (inside Westeros and outside - btw I can't believe how very little attention to foreign policy issues is being paid around here. You'd think the plot never leaves Westeros) wanted to prevent Rhaegar on the throne. He'd be competent and popular.

So Rhaegar tried damage-control. First order of business is to protect and hide Lyanna, because she knows the truth and her supposed abduction and rape is the official reason for the rebellion. If need be, a marriage with her could seal a peace. She's a valuable hostage at that point, but there's also potential in having her as an ally. She knows who really murdered her brother and father and she would certainly want revenge. And she could be convinced to help overthrow Aerys the Mad.

We know that Ashara went places, so there's no reason she couldn't have met Ned after Harrenhal. I suspect her to be the person who told Ned Lyanna's whereabouts in the first place and the reasons for their meetings that Ned liked her and Rhaegar figured she might be the best envoy to tell the remaining Starks the truth and convince them to join his side. Didn't seem to work so well (Ned can be stubborn), but some seed might have been planted. Literally.

We know that Ned was disgusted with the slaughter of Elia and her children, but he never refers to Aegon by name or as prince. He calls him the boy. Ned is the kind of person who doesn't care if a murdered child is a prince or a switched nobody. It's a murdered child and he is outraged all the same.

IF: He found baby Aegon at the TOJ, brought to Rhaegar's secret hide-out where some Kingsguard were already protecting Lyanna, he could have agreed to help hiding him. Lyanna might have been wounded in the fight, maybe because she tried to stop it. On her death-bed she makes Ned promise to do everything in his power to keep the baby safe. For starters, he needs to bring him to Starfall, where the Daynes would take over.

Enter stupid little logistical problem: Baby needs a wet-nurse and people like Lord Stark don't usually move babies around without people asking funny questions. This problem isn't as trivial as it sounds and it is a dangerous one no matter which baby it was: Aegon, Jon the Prince or simply Jon the son of ? and Ned. Most people around here are dead certain that R+L=J because of the evidence. Now just consider the possibility that it also works the other way round: Lyanna was known to have been with Rhaegar at the TOJ and Ned found her there on her death bed. Afterwards he is seen to move around with a baby and claims it's his bastard. The honorable Ned Stark, newly wed to Catelyn Tully? Children have been murdered for less suspicious circumstances in the Game of Thrones and the Lannisters wouldn't think twice.

The thing is, he really has fathered a bastard on Ashara, but they are at Starfall. So he let his retainers believe the baby is that child and the wet-nurse he hired was sent from Starfall because the Daynes refused to raise the child. The rumours were deliberately spread by Wylla and Ned pretended to become angry whenever someone doubted that Wylla was the mother. There's nothing like a juicy tale to distract from another juicy tale. As Wylla seemed to have trouble keeping her mouth shut, it made sense in the eyes of the world to send her back and get another wet-nurse for the bastard. He did that and at Starfall, the babies were swapped, Ned took his own son with him and Ashara took care of little Aegon and accompanied him into exile, where she stayed with him as Septa Lemore. The Daynes did it because they are staunch Rhaegar loyalists and loyal bannermen of the Martells, Ned because Lyanna made him promise and because he was truly afraid for both kids.

I think there's plenty of potential to explain the textual evidence: Ned's guilt, his promise, his refusal to discuss Jon's mother, the Kingsguard, Ashara and it doesn't freaking have to ignore the back-stabbing power-play that's always going on. Which is actually my biggest grief with the twuu luvvvv angle.

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If they were trying to protect R+L=J, there's no reason to fight Ned and his men. He was Lyanna's baby and Ned could have been expected to actually help them.

That's a presumptuous statement. Ned could very well have been expected to stay loyal to Robert, for all the Kingsguard knew. Certainly Lyanna didn't seem to think there was nothing to fear from Ned, otherwise why would there be fear in her eyes until she extracted those promises from him?

And there's the political fall-out: Both Rhaegar and Lyanna have to be pretty naive and selfish if they truly just eloped for twuu luvvv or some thousands of years old prophecy. Purlease.

"The things we do for love." It's a common theme in these books.

We know that Ned was disgusted with the slaughter of Elia and her children, but he never refers to Aegon by name or as prince.

Sure he does. He recalls seeing "the red ruin of Aegon's skull" in King's Landing.

I think there's plenty of potential to explain the textual evidence

Actually, it leaves a number of things unexplained:

1) Why does Ned think to himself that he's been living lies for fourteen years? Keep in mind that "living a lie" is not the same as "telling a lie." It has more to do with presenting something about yourself to the world that is false. This quote works perfectly if Ned has been pretending to be Jon's father, but it doesn't really work under your theory.

2) What does the blue rose growing from a wall of ice symbolize, if not Jon?

3) Why would Ned say that Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early grave, if she was merely the victim of a power play? Or do you think he doesn't know about this angle? I may have missed that in your explanation.

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Absolutely. The "You might not have my name, but you have my blood" line tells a lot.

Ya that line was used in the show to make up for not having the dialogue from the book where Cat has the flashback of Ned telling her that Jon was his blood and that's all she needed to know, after she questions him about Ashara possibly being Jon's mother....

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Yep, and there are still problems with R+L=J, not to mention alternative explanations that do work.

Snip

Saying there are alternative theories that, "do work" is stretching it to say the least, just because you personally come up with some speculative theory, doesn't mean it matches R+L=J. The point is, to even come close to challenging R+L=J you have to attempt to use bits and pieces from multiple speculative theories in order to find and or solve the supposed 'holes' you think R+L=J has. But again just because you make up some story in your head that is not supported by the text does not mean it matches R+L=J, at the end of the day, no other alternative theory by itself even comes close to matching R+L=J in terms of textual evidence, textual imagery, and SSM from GRRM interviews, so no matter what speculative arguments you try to cook up, you still won't be able to escape that simple truth.

R+L=J is a complete theory that works for entirety of ASOIAF story past and present, and while I'll admit certain alternative theories might work for specific situations here and there in the story, those same theories still don't work as a whole for the story, they're overall not as complete of theories as R+L=J and leave far to many plot holes in other aspects of the story other than the few specific points in the story they might work for. A lot of R+L=J detractors think just because their alternative theories might work for one or two aspects of the story then that must mean it definitely challenges R+L=J, and completely lose sight of the fact that theory also needs to make sure that it works for all the other aspects of the overall story and has the textual evidence to back it up. R+L=J is by far the closest theory to reach this goal, and I have yet to see one alternative theory that even comes close to matching R+L=J in that regard......Sorry the theory you just posted does not....

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Barristan was at HH, and he might drop some information without realizing how it fits in the big picture.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna married on the Isle of Faces, we can see it through Bran's access to the ww network.

Meera mentions that there is a sadder story to the wolf girl becoming QoLaB, so we might perhaps receive some more information from here (perhaps in connection with Bran's visions, to help him realize what he saw).

Evidences, give me evidences! :rofl:

(finger kiddin' too)

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Apple is right here. You do not need to have it all written to believe in its accuracy, especially with all the evidence provided to support it, and none against it. Look at reference guide, all the possible problems are solved, all the questions answered. Also, not to mention this is the only Jon's parentage theory that actually makes sense, not to mention timeline, plot reasons, and all sorts of things. This theory is basically "butler killed the guy" screaming before the novel is over. I believe you have read some mistery novels and solved the problem before the author has written it. It's the same thing.

Or do you?

:lmao:

You're making my day

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I agree completely. To add to this a simple bit of logic- as in any good mystery, we only have all the clues because they are written in the text already, hiding in plain sight for all the world to see.

Thank you, and preceding posters, for making me think about this. Finally I begin to have an idea of how my Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth theory may be significant ;)

That just took my breath away.

These new angles you always catch just go to show it's not a good idea to think inside the same box when it comes to Martin.

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Yep, and there are still problems with R+L=J, not to mention alternative explanations that do work.

The Kingsguard at the TOJ were doing something they believed were their duty. Trying to protect the Targ with the best claim to the throne is a very good possibility, but not necessarily the real or only reason. If they were trying to protect R+L=J, there's no reason to fight Ned and his men. He was Lyanna's baby and Ned could have been expected to actually help them.

Then there's Ned Dayne. The whole Dayne angle makes no sense. Why name their heir after the man who killed Arthur Dayne, probably dishonored Ashara (he or his brother) and then redeemed himself by graciously agreeing to protect his own nephew? And why was Wylla not only left at Starfall, but also kept in a position of trust as the heir's wet-nurse?

1. I agree the Dayne angle doesn't make much sense

It also bothers me that the TOJ is in Dorne, Elia's home, which is a singularly peculiar location to hide the woman and child who are a threat to the half-Dornish prince.

2. the location of the ToJ also strikes me as strange

And there's the political fall-out: Both Rhaegar and Lyanna have to be pretty naive and selfish if they truly just eloped for twuu [...]

So Rhaegar tried damage-control. First order of business is to protect and hide Lyanna, because she knows the truth and her supposed abduction and rape is the official reason for the rebellion. If need be, a marriage with her could seal a peace. She's a valuable hostage at that point, but there's also potential in having her as an ally. She knows who really murdered her brother and father and she would certainly want revenge. And she could be convinced to help overthrow Aerys the Mad.

3. Rhaegar, if he was the man we are told he was, must have had a plan B, for damage control and/or make amends with Dorne. I've suggested Aegon was meant to be fostered, or Lyanna + Jon, were meant to be left under Doran's protection. I do believe R+L= J, just to make it clear...

We know that Ashara went places, so there's no reason she couldn't have met Ned after Harrenhal. I suspect her to be the person who told Ned Lyanna's whereabouts in the first place and the reasons for their meetings that Ned liked her and Rhaegar figured she might be the best envoy to tell the remaining Starks the truth and convince them to join his side. Didn't seem to work so well (Ned can be stubborn), but some seed might have been planted. Literally.

We know that Ned was disgusted with the slaughter of Elia and her children, but he never refers to Aegon by name or as prince. He calls him the boy. Ned is the kind of person who doesn't care if a murdered child is a prince or a switched nobody. It's a murdered child and he is outraged all the same.

4. Does Ned never refer to Aegon by his name? or as the Prince? really? if yes, that's interesting.

IF: He found baby Aegon at the TOJ, brought to Rhaegar's secret hide-out where some Kingsguard were already protecting Lyanna, he could have agreed to help hiding him. Lyanna might have been wounded in the fight, maybe because she tried to stop it. On her death-bed she makes Ned promise to do everything in his power to keep the baby safe. For starters, he needs to bring him to Starfall, where the Daynes would take over.

5. What about he heard from Ashara that Aegon, somehow survived the sack? regardless of whether or not this is true. Lets just consider the Vayrs/Illyrio/Young Griff/Lemore angle for one moment. For the story to be credible, Varys/Illyrio must have started planning years ago, and have a good foundation to work with. It's not impossible that Ashara is the brigde between the two different plots, and was recruited by the Blackfyre team shortly after the sack. IMO, if Ned was told that Aegon had survived upon his arrival at Starfall, if Ashara fakes her death, if Ashara = Lemore, if Ned played a part in the deception >> this explains Ned Dayne...though that's a lot of IFs ;)

Enter stupid little logistical problem: Baby needs a wet-nurse and people like Lord Stark don't usually move babies around without people asking funny questions.

6. It makes sense that Wylla was involved in the story before Ned arrived...I'd say even months before Lyanna gave birth >> traveling with a new born, under the hot Dornish sun, for miles of dry mountains, is not ideal. If Jon was to survive his first weeks, a wet-nurse had to have been with him from the ToJ onward. This ties in with 3) the suggestion that Aegon was meant to be fostered and supposes that Wylla was considered as trustworthy and meant as a wet-nurse for Prince Aegon, not Jon. Circumstances 'Aegon's death) would have changed her role in the story.

I won't say anymore, I've already suggested my crackpot theory in previous R+L=J thread and I won't press further. However if Ashara = Lemore, and that's quite uncertain, it makes sense for her to be the 1 person at the crossing of two different story arcs...though Wylla might also be a link.

On Ned: if Ned believes that Rhaegar's heir has survived, revealing Jon's identity is really just twisting the knife in the wound. In effect, from Ned's perspective Jon has no claim on the IT. As a second son to a dead crown prince, Jon taking the black might not even prove a conflict of conscience to Ned. Plus, there is that little threat made by Jon to Gilly "you saved one babe, now save another"...something that Ashara could have told Ned. "You saved your sister's son, now help me save Elia's son."

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Yep, and there are still problems with R+L=J, not to mention alternative explanations that do work.

The Kingsguard at the TOJ were doing something they believed were their duty. Trying to protect the Targ with the best claim to the throne is a very good possibility, but not necessarily the real or only reason. If they were trying to protect R+L=J, there's no reason to fight Ned and his men. He was Lyanna's baby and Ned could have been expected to actually help them.

Then there's Ned Dayne. The whole Dayne angle makes no sense. Why name their heir after the man who killed Arthur Dayne, probably dishonored Ashara (he or his brother) and then redeemed himself by graciously agreeing to protect his own nephew? And why was Wylla not only left at Starfall, but also kept in a position of trust as the heir's wet-nurse?

It also bothers me that the TOJ is in Dorne, Elia's home, which is a singularly peculiar location to hide the woman and child who are a threat to the half-Dornish prince.

And there's the political fall-out: Both Rhaegar and Lyanna have to be pretty naive and selfish if they truly just eloped for twuu luvvv or some thousands of years old prophecy. Purlease.

May I suggest an alternative: Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been a love story, but it never went that far. Instead, it was used by some party who intended to remove Rhaegar to discredit him and cause problems for the Realm. (I believe Varys and the party he truly serves, but that's probably too much off topic). The plot was successful: Brandon believed the abduction and rape, called for Rhaegar's head and King Aerys murdered Lord Stark, his heir and asked for the heads of Ned and Robert. The whole thing set off a rebellion that had been formenting for some time.

It is possible that Rhaegar recognized the signs, that his father needed to be curbed or even replaced. And it's possible that enemies of the Targs (inside Westeros and outside - btw I can't believe how very little attention to foreign policy issues is being paid around here. You'd think the plot never leaves Westeros) wanted to prevent Rhaegar on the throne. He'd be competent and popular.

So Rhaegar tried damage-control. First order of business is to protect and hide Lyanna, because she knows the truth and her supposed abduction and rape is the official reason for the rebellion. If need be, a marriage with her could seal a peace. She's a valuable hostage at that point, but there's also potential in having her as an ally. She knows who really murdered her brother and father and she would certainly want revenge. And she could be convinced to help overthrow Aerys the Mad.

We know that Ashara went places, so there's no reason she couldn't have met Ned after Harrenhal. I suspect her to be the person who told Ned Lyanna's whereabouts in the first place and the reasons for their meetings that Ned liked her and Rhaegar figured she might be the best envoy to tell the remaining Starks the truth and convince them to join his side. Didn't seem to work so well (Ned can be stubborn), but some seed might have been planted. Literally.

We know that Ned was disgusted with the slaughter of Elia and her children, but he never refers to Aegon by name or as prince. He calls him the boy. Ned is the kind of person who doesn't care if a murdered child is a prince or a switched nobody. It's a murdered child and he is outraged all the same.

IF: He found baby Aegon at the TOJ, brought to Rhaegar's secret hide-out where some Kingsguard were already protecting Lyanna, he could have agreed to help hiding him. Lyanna might have been wounded in the fight, maybe because she tried to stop it. On her death-bed she makes Ned promise to do everything in his power to keep the baby safe. For starters, he needs to bring him to Starfall, where the Daynes would take over.

Enter stupid little logistical problem: Baby needs a wet-nurse and people like Lord Stark don't usually move babies around without people asking funny questions. This problem isn't as trivial as it sounds and it is a dangerous one no matter which baby it was: Aegon, Jon the Prince or simply Jon the son of ? and Ned. Most people around here are dead certain that R+L=J because of the evidence. Now just consider the possibility that it also works the other way round: Lyanna was known to have been with Rhaegar at the TOJ and Ned found her there on her death bed. Afterwards he is seen to move around with a baby and claims it's his bastard. The honorable Ned Stark, newly wed to Catelyn Tully? Children have been murdered for less suspicious circumstances in the Game of Thrones and the Lannisters wouldn't think twice.

The thing is, he really has fathered a bastard on Ashara, but they are at Starfall. So he let his retainers believe the baby is that child and the wet-nurse he hired was sent from Starfall because the Daynes refused to raise the child. The rumours were deliberately spread by Wylla and Ned pretended to become angry whenever someone doubted that Wylla was the mother. There's nothing like a juicy tale to distract from another juicy tale. As Wylla seemed to have trouble keeping her mouth shut, it made sense in the eyes of the world to send her back and get another wet-nurse for the bastard. He did that and at Starfall, the babies were swapped, Ned took his own son with him and Ashara took care of little Aegon and accompanied him into exile, where she stayed with him as Septa Lemore. The Daynes did it because they are staunch Rhaegar loyalists and loyal bannermen of the Martells, Ned because Lyanna made him promise and because he was truly afraid for both kids.

I think there's plenty of potential to explain the textual evidence: Ned's guilt, his promise, his refusal to discuss Jon's mother, the Kingsguard, Ashara and it doesn't freaking have to ignore the back-stabbing power-play that's always going on. Which is actually my biggest grief with the twuu luvvvv angle.

With all due respect, while I agree there is a political angle going on, one of the main factors of Martins work is the influence of Faulkner as he has stated himself.

Faulkner's tenant of "the human heart in conflict with itself," has everything to do with the choices the characters make, so I think love had a lot to do with events, and the fact that R&L never had a chance is part of the tragedy.

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The use of condescending laughter is what people do when they have no other way to challenge an argument, as if to say..."You're so wrong it's hilarious."

The irony is that their actions are hilarious, so we can still all laugh! :lmao:

It's quite odd to imply that you need every piece of a puzzle to figure out what the puzzle will be. I guess for some people that is true, but for others common sense, reason, and logic go a long way. It goes against reason, logic, and common sense to deny R+L=J. When the alternative theories require a lot more missing pieces than the challenged theory itself...well, it's a bit challenging to take the alternative theories seriously.

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Then there's Ned Dayne. The whole Dayne angle makes no sense. Why name their heir after the man who killed Arthur Dayne, probably dishonored Ashara (he or his brother) and then redeemed himself by graciously agreeing to protect his own nephew? And why was Wylla not only left at Starfall, but also kept in a position of trust as the heir's wet-nurse?

They didn't. We have Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne. It just so happens that Ned is diminutive for both their names, the same way that in our world Ed may be a diminutive for Edward, Edmund, Edgar, Edwin, etc. They have different names!
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Care to share a joke, so we could all laugh?

Of course.

May ppl ask for textual evidence.

As far as I'm seeing, GRRM will present us with actions, so that we guess the character's intent. Or someone tells a story without complete knowledge of the facts. Others simply lie.

This huge guessing game is not only about reading a textual clue, but discovering the truth behind the surface.

Otoh, laughing is good for health.

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