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Hodoris

I think Varys has a hand in the downfall of Ned Stark

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When Varys says he only wants what's good for the Realm, he means the Targaryen Realm. He wasn't able to stop Robert at the Trident nor Jaime from killing Aerys II. Later, he probably figured Robert would make the throne weak enough to over throw and bring back Viserys. Stannis, Cersei and certainly Joffery would do just as well for his plans. Tyrion, Tywin and Eddard were all trying to strengthen the Realm as is. Ned would have gone to the wall. He did warn Tyrion not to go to his father's bed chambers and that nothing good could come from it.......after telling him in detail how to reach his fathers bed chambers.

I disagree with Fox though that he was wanting the throne weak so that he could bring back Viserys...I would argue that everything Varys has been preparing for is for Aegon to come back and take the throne. Varys would know that Aegon has a better claim than Dany...We also learn from the Varys/Kev convo that he has basically been raising Aegon up to be the perfect king. Think about the planning and detail it had to take Varys to make sure Aegon was raised the way he was and the amount of people that were needed to do so.

Plus, think about this...We saw how much time, attention to detail, planning, and secrecy went into raising up Aegon...If Illyrio and Varys were so about Viserys and Dani, why wouldn't they have done the same thing as they did with Aegon? Instead, Dani and Viserys have a horrible childhood, they basically beg throughout the Essos, and have had no care at all until they are teenagers and Illyrio and Varys can get some profit out of them by matching Dani up with Drogo.

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Illyrio and Varys had a two pronged plan. Yes, I did say before Varys was betting on Viserys and I was wrong. Aegon has most of their support but, as we've seen before, they will change their plans and bring in the B Team if situations dictate. That said, Viserys and to a lesser extent Dany did have a place in the Targeryan reinstatement. I still stand by the idea that Varys wanted sent Ned to the Wall. They were concerned about the pace of events. Killing Ned could only lead down one path.


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I still stand by the idea that Varys wanted sent Ned to the Wall. They were concerned about the pace of events. Killing Ned could only lead down one path.

Yes! :D :agree:

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I do believe that Varys made the arrangements to kill Tyrion at Blackwater, but not Ned. Ned's downfall was caused by... Ned and Cersei being dumb. I mean, Ned is not a very bright character, and Cersei could have avoided the situation without sparkling a war - and we can attest to her paranoia in A Feast for Crows.



Now, for Varys, I really don't trust him - I prefer to trust Littlefinger. I do not believe that Aegon is a Targaryen, for instance, and the reason for that is how people say that he HAS to marry Dany to claim the Iron Throne, even if he has a better claim already. I think the plan was to make him king by marriage and keep up with the farce, snatching some dragons in the process. The captain of the Golden Company says this:



"We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same".



Well,that does not seems very reassuring.



And well, let's remember two facts now: it's said in some POV that the Golden Company refused Viserys before - and everyone was certain about Viserys. Besides that, Varys knew about Dany, and he informed Robert about her, which made her a target. He wanted her dead.



No, Varys probably wants something more. Probably he wants the Iron Throne for himself, and created an Aegon to make that possible. He and Mopatis played that game for years, and neither one are from Westeros... Or are they? We don't know the ancestors of neither one.



Varys says that he wants the good of the realms, but creates chaos - see A Feast for Crows. What he says is the opposite of what he does.



And to finish, the rightful heir is, well, Stannis. The Targaryens lost their right to the throne after Robert's Rebellion. They were conquered, as they conquered Westeros once.



EDIT - I mean, I think Varys as a cyvasse player. He did not care much for Dany in the first book. However, after she got her dragons - the strongest piece in cyvasse - she sends her ships. And then she got an army of Unsullied, and at the same time Varys and Mopatis produces an Aegon to marry her. It's just too convenient for them. For me, Varys is more interested in getting the dragons than restoring the Targaryen to the throne.


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I do believe that Varys made the arrangements to kill Tyrion at Blackwater, but not Ned. Ned's downfall was caused by... Ned and Cersei being dumb. I mean, Ned is not a very bright character, and Cersei could have avoided the situation without sparkling a war - and we can attest to her paranoia in A Feast for Crows.

Now, for Varys, I really don't trust him - I prefer to trust Littlefinger. I do not believe that Aegon is a Targaryen, for instance, and the reason for that is how people say that he HAS to marry Dany to claim the Iron Throne, even if he has a better claim already. I think the plan was to make him king by marriage and keep up with the farce, snatching some dragons in the process. The captain of the Golden Company says this:

"We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same".

Well,that does not seems very reassuring.

And well, let's remember two facts now: it's said in some POV that the Golden Company refused Viserys before - and everyone was certain about Viserys. Besides that, Varys knew about Dany, and he informed Robert about her, which made her a target. He wanted her dead.

No, Varys probably wants something more. Probably he wants the Iron Throne for himself, and created an Aegon to make that possible. He and Mopatis played that game for years, and neither one are from Westeros... Or are they? We don't know the ancestors of neither one.

Varys says that he wants the good of the realms, but creates chaos - see A Feast for Crows. What he says is the opposite of what he does.

And to finish, the rightful heir is, well, Stannis. The Targaryens lost their right to the throne after Robert's Rebellion. They were conquered, as they conquered Westeros once.

EDIT - I mean, I think Varys as a cyvasse player. He did not care much for Dany in the first book. However, after she got her dragons - the strongest piece in cyvasse - she sends her ships. And then she got an army of Unsullied, and at the same time Varys and Mopatis produces an Aegon to marry her. It's just too convenient for them. For me, Varys is more interested in getting the dragons than restoring the Targaryen to the throne.

As to Aegon having to marry Dany to secure his claim: it's not as if Dany will stand down. She is giving no signs of that (though it could help if she would learn about Aegon :P ). Also, should Dany marry someone else, their children could contest Aegon's children for the throne one day.

So it doesn't have to be a bad thing ;)

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I agree it is not a bad thing, but I found it very strange the way that it was put. Aegon has the better claim, he ultimately does not need to marry Dany. However, everyone thinks that it is something necessary; even Aegon. He goes to Westeros waiting for Dany, not to claim the Iron Throne for himself, even if he has every right to it. And well, about their children, Aegon children would have precedence as well, although everyone wants to avoid another War of the Ninepenny Kings.



However, it is all extremely convenient to Varys and Mopatis. They planned Dany's marriage, to give Viserys an army. After the marriage, Dany lost her usefulness and Varys makes her a target. He only become interested in her again after the dragons. After that, the Golden Company, who had rejected Viserys before, becomes interested in following another princeling, one that is extremely convenient.



For me, this is extremely fishy.



For me, Varys wants an army and the dragons with someone that he can easily manipulate...


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I agree it is not a bad thing, but I found it very strange the way that it was put. Aegon has the better claim, he ultimately does not need to marry Dany. However, everyone thinks that it is something necessary; even Aegon. He goes to Westeros waiting for Dany, not to claim the Iron Throne for himself, even if he has every right to it. And well, about their children, Aegon children would have precedence as well, although everyone wants to avoid another War of the Ninepenny Kings.

However, it is all extremely convenient to Varys and Mopatis. They planned Dany's marriage, to give Viserys an army. After the marriage, Dany lost her usefulness and Varys makes her a target. He only become interested in her again after the dragons. After that, the Golden Company, who had rejected Viserys before, becomes interested in following another princeling, one that is extremely convenient.

For me, this is extremely fishy.

For me, Varys wants an army and the dragons with someone that he can easily manipulate...

Illyrio never expected the eggs to hatch though, or Dany to survive for long amongst the Dothraki. She was expendable, in the original plan. She only became interesting when she birthed three dragons from the stone eggs.

Edit: also, the men from the GC complain about Illyrio and his plans, and actually say that they first were to join Viserys Targaryen with 40.000 Dothraki behind him. So even though they rejected Viserys openly, they did have secret plans with Illyrio. Though it could also have been a ploy, I admit, since only the leader of the GC seems to know about the plans with Aegon. The rest doesn't learn of it until a few days before JonCon and Aegon meet up with them.

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I do believe that Varys made the arrangements to kill Tyrion at Blackwater, but not Ned. Ned's downfall was caused by... Ned and Cersei being dumb. I mean, Ned is not a very bright character, and Cersei could have avoided the situation without sparkling a war - and we can attest to her paranoia in A Feast for Crows.

Now, for Varys, I really don't trust him - I prefer to trust Littlefinger. I do not believe that Aegon is a Targaryen, for instance, and the reason for that is how people say that he HAS to marry Dany to claim the Iron Throne, even if he has a better claim already. I think the plan was to make him king by marriage and keep up with the farce, snatching some dragons in the process. The captain of the Golden Company says this:

"We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same".

Well,that does not seems very reassuring.

And well, let's remember two facts now: it's said in some POV that the Golden Company refused Viserys before - and everyone was certain about Viserys. Besides that, Varys knew about Dany, and he informed Robert about her, which made her a target. He wanted her dead.

No, Varys probably wants something more. Probably he wants the Iron Throne for himself, and created an Aegon to make that possible. He and Mopatis played that game for years, and neither one are from Westeros... Or are they? We don't know the ancestors of neither one.

Varys says that he wants the good of the realms, but creates chaos - see A Feast for Crows. What he says is the opposite of what he does.

And to finish, the rightful heir is, well, Stannis. The Targaryens lost their right to the throne after Robert's Rebellion. They were conquered, as they conquered Westeros once.

EDIT - I mean, I think Varys as a cyvasse player. He did not care much for Dany in the first book. However, after she got her dragons - the strongest piece in cyvasse - she sends her ships. And then she got an army of Unsullied, and at the same time Varys and Mopatis produces an Aegon to marry her. It's just too convenient for them. For me, Varys is more interested in getting the dragons than restoring the Targaryen to the throne.

On the topic of Aegon having to marry Danny... it's not that Danny has the better claim, because Aegon is fake. I mean whether he's fake or not at this point ... none could actually figure that out by now for the most part. It's that Dany has Dragons. And the world KNOWS about her. If Aegon were to marry the sister everyone KNOWS as a Targ... and hse were to accept him as Aegon, the world in turn would say, oh ok, if one Targ recognizes him as a Targ, than so do we.

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It makes no sense for Varys to secretly talk to Ned in the cells, bring him wine and water and to go crazy when Joffrey orders his execution if that is what he really wanted. Varys respected Ned 100% because of his honor. Varys is not that evil, the small things like him getting Edric Storm a present each year or making sure Gendry was safe prove that.

I always thought that Varys was just keeping tabs on Robert's bastards as a trump card for getting Cercei's children out of the way when he needed to clear the way for Aegon. Their dark hair would help disprove Joff's heritage. But I do think that he wanted Ned sent to the Wall, if only to keep the North in line until the time was right for Aegon to land.

But Varys also may have had a sense of honor too.

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But why would Varys want more chaos in the realm. I though Little finger stated that he wanted the realm in chaos because he would have a greater chance to advance in Westeros. Varys always stated whatever he did was good for the realm.

Aegon Realm!

When Varys says he only wants what's good for the Realm, he means the Targaryen Realm. He wasn't able to stop Robert at the Trident nor Jaime from killing Aerys II. Later, he probably figured Robert would make the throne weak enough to over throw and bring back Viserys. Stannis, Cersei and certainly Joffery would do just as well for his plans. Tyrion, Tywin and Eddard were all trying to strengthen the Realm as is. Ned would have gone to the wall. He did warn Tyrion not to go to his father's bed chambers and that nothing good could come from it.......after telling him in detail how to reach his fathers bed chambers.

If Varys and Illyrio had Aegon the whole time than this was his plan the WHOLE time!

After founding out that Varys is a Targ Loyalist, reread the books with that mindset in mind, not someone who switch alliance the drop of a hat.

I disagree with Fox though that he was wanting the throne weak so that he could bring back Viserys...I would argue that everything Varys has been preparing for is for Aegon to come back and take the throne. Varys would know that Aegon has a better claim than Dany...We also learn from the Varys/Kev convo that he has basically been raising Aegon up to be the perfect king. Think about the planning and detail it had to take Varys to make sure Aegon was raised the way he was and the amount of people that were needed to do so.

Plus, think about this...We saw how much time, attention to detail, planning, and secrecy went into raising up Aegon...If Illyrio and Varys were so about Viserys and Dani, why wouldn't they have done the same thing as they did with Aegon? Instead, Dani and Viserys have a horrible childhood, they basically beg throughout the Essos, and have had no care at all until they are teenagers and Illyrio and Varys can get some profit out of them by matching Dani up with Drogo.

Everybody knew Dany and Viserys were alive and on the run, however everybody believe Aegon to be dead, so raising him in secret was easy and the only viable option. What if Illyrio told Dany or Viserys? What if Viserys tried something against Aegon? What if Jorah found something? that would be something to tell the King. God forbids What if LittleFinger found out?

This was not something to be blurred out until all parties were to reveal it and deal with the consequences.

I thought you would have figure that out by now :dunno:

I agree it is not a bad thing, but I found it very strange the way that it was put. Aegon has the better claim, he ultimately does not need to marry Dany. However, everyone thinks that it is something necessary; even Aegon. He goes to Westeros waiting for Dany, not to claim the Iron Throne for himself, even if he has every right to it. And well, about their children, Aegon children would have precedence as well, although everyone wants to avoid another War of the Ninepenny Kings.

However, it is all extremely convenient to Varys and Mopatis. They planned Dany's marriage, to give Viserys an army. After the marriage, Dany lost her usefulness and Varys makes her a target. He only become interested in her again after the dragons. After that, the Golden Company, who had rejected Viserys before, becomes interested in following another princeling, one that is extremely convenient.

For me, this is extremely fishy.

For me, Varys wants an army and the dragons with someone that he can easily manipulate...

This statement is not true. Aegon need Dany and vice versa. They are the blood of the dragon. Keeping that dynasy as pure as possible and their blood is the only thing keeping the Dragons under control.

You really think that Varys would have Dany or Viserys killed if he backs the Targs?

What could Varys do with dragons if he has no powers to control

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Well, I might quibble a bit with that.

Ned was set up by Littlefinger and Lysa. She sent that deliberately misleading letter. Littlefinger did everything he could to lead Ned down the path of destruction, and into the Lannister soup. (Let's not get into Lady Stark's misadventures.) I believe Varys tried to warn Ned off. I do not think he did anything overt to hurry Ned's demise. Littlefinger was had Ned by the nose, and pulled him a long. But Varys did nothing to help Ned, because Ned was not useful, had no power and (worse) could not be manipulated -- it was so easy to "let" Tyrion have his revenge.

I agree that Varys now wants as much chaos and instability in Westeros as possible. I was appalled when Tywin Lannister was killed (not that he did not deserve a thumping from Tyrion), who was going to ride herd on Cersi and the quarreling lords? And, his poor brother met the same fate because he tried to exert some control.

Agreed with what you said regarding LittleFinger and Lysa after all they were the one's that practically started everything up to this point truth be told because of their murder of Jon Arryn. In regards to Varys and being involved with Ned's death. I remember when he and Illyrio were talking in the dungeon's that one Hand was already dead why not the other but with the other stating that it wasn't time yet and to try and stabilize and keep it from falling for long in which Varys clearly states that if he mistakes him for a wizard/magician/sorcerers. I don't think he was involved in his death which was LittleFinger and his honor to blame for the most part but he did not help him but he did sprinkle some clues here and there. PErsonally it was Ned that killed himself trusting LittleFinger, not listening to Renly when they had the chance to get Joffrey and not listening to LittleFinger in regard's to screw honor and raise Joffrey and Tommen and Myrcella and wed them to his children and make peace with the Lannister's. O well

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I think it was LF who suggested Joffrey to execute Ned. Varys tried to save Ned's life because at this point he wanted to deescalate the situation because it served his own ends. I mean at this point Aegon was too young to impact the whole WotfK. Varys wanted chaos, but he wanted it after a few years, LF wanted chaos right away. IMHO LF told Joffrey about what it means to be a king and that his father never showed mercy to Rhaegar and with this fancy stories he made sure that Joffrey turned against the counsel Cersei, Varys, Pycelle & High Septon gave him, and ordered the execution of Eddard Stark.


I think this will be shown to Sansa and it will ultimately cause LF's downfall.


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I think it was LF who suggested Joffrey to execute Ned. Varys tried to save Ned's life because at this point he wanted to deescalate the situation because it served his own ends. I mean at this point Aegon was too young to impact the whole WotfK. Varys wanted chaos, but he wanted it after a few years, LF wanted chaos right away. IMHO LF told Joffrey about what it means to be a king and that his father never showed mercy to Rhaegar and with this fancy stories he made sure that Joffrey turned against the counsel Cersei, Varys, Pycelle & High Septon gave him, and ordered the execution of Eddard Stark.

I think this will be shown to Sansa and it will ultimately cause LF's downfall.

I agree with everything!

As for Sansa being LF's downfall because that. I even hope it will. It made me almost sick when LF told Sansa in the Eyrie something like "in a better world you would be my daughter". Ned was a 100 time better man, father and lord than LF ever could be (IMHO).

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I agree with everything!

 

As for Sansa being LF's downfall because that. I even hope it will. It made me almost sick when LF told Sansa in the Eyrie something like "in a better world you would be my daughter". Ned was a 100 time better man, father and lord than LF ever could be (IMHO).

I truly do hope that sana takes LF down the next book. I'm kind of sick of the dudes plot armour. Even if its her manipulating Harry the Heir to do it or something I'm fine with that. Ned needs so revenge on that little twerp. The Ned was the real deal as a leader and father. He just didn't understand the snake pit he walked into in KL.

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Varys wanted to delay break-out of a war at the time. Even taking the black for Ned was a bit of a sham. Ned's extremely feverish, his leg smells bad. Ned had an open break of his leg, which means the risk of infection of the bone marrow was extremely high in an environment like a black cell. When Varys visits him he would have known that Ned was in a state he would not live long anymore. Ned was going to die; hence a beheading was superfluous. But he would have died in the back of a wagon on the road. In an ironic way, Joffrey did give him mercy. He had a quick death, instead of suffering and to die by blood poisoning and infection (as his sister did).

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On 10/19/2013 at 0:23 AM, Jon Snow-Targaryen said:

I agree with Beathag, Varys had the greatest of respect for Ned, I can't remember be I'm fairly certain that he was advising the little monster boy king to let ned take the Black. i think that it was he's intention that when Aegon returned he was going to have Ned pardoned of his non-crimes

 

 

 

Call be crazy but I trust the shadowy, manipulative, master of whispers, spy master eunuch (He's one of my favorites)

Pardon him for taking his kingdom from him and his family? You have to look this from Aegon's POV; Ned participated equally in Robert's rebellion as Robert Baratheon and the Lannisters.

Ned said it out of his mouth that he would oppose Dany if she ever came back to Westeros, If Aegon defeated him and gain his kingdom, why would anyone pardoned that?

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