Crackpot Alert: Might Lem Be Richard Lonmouth?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Loving these theories. Keep them coming, guys. ;)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Found another interesting quote about Lem in Storm, chapter 13 (the first time Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie-- and we-- encounter the BwB) They are taken to the Inn of the Kneeling Man. First-- it's typical sly GRRM to have Arya look at the inn sign and think "The painted sign above the door showed a picture of some old king on his knees." Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt, became a vassal Lord of Aegon the Conqueror on that spot. Surely there is some significance to Arya Stark becoming a captive to the BwB there as well? Might it be made more so if the outlaw who subdues her is a former Targaryen supporter? Of more significance, is the following exchange with Sharna:

"...the river water tastes of war, with all the dead men drifting downstream. If I served you a cup of soup full of dead flies, would you drink it?" "Arya would," said Hot Pie. "I mean, Squab." "So would Lem," offered Anguy with a sly smile.

I always thought this was an odd remark, and clearly has some significance because I firmly believe GRRM does not give a single throw away word (certainly not dialogue) Now if, as I suppose, Richard Lonmouth was at the Battle of the Trident, there's a very good chance (see Elder Brother's comments on the matter in the Quite Isle chapter) that he went into the river water with all the dead men drifting downstream.

[Alia of the knife]

Found another interesting quote about Lem in Storm, chapter 13 (the first time Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie-- and we-- encounter the BwB) They are taken to the Inn of the Kneeling Man. First-- it's typical sly GRRM to have Arya look at the inn sign and think "The painted sign above the door showed a picture of some old king on his knees." Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt, became a vassal Lord of Aegon the Conqueror on that spot. Surely there is some significance to Arya Stark becoming a captive to the BwB there as well? Might it be made more so if the outlaw who subdues her is a former Targaryen supporter? Of more significance, is the following exchange with Sharna: I always thought this was an odd remark, and clearly has some significance because I firmly believe GRRM does not give a single throw away word (certainly not dialogue) Now if, as I suppose, Richard Lonmouth was at the Battle of the Trident, there's a very good chance (see Elder Brother's comments on the matter in the Quite Isle chapter) that he went into the river water with all the dead men drifting downstream.

I agree with all of this and feel that there are cyclical events, history repeating itself, until the opposing elements and balance are put back into play.

The chasm between the mystical Starks and Tarygaryens, and all the events and people who attempt to keep them apart have to be stopped for that balance to be achieved.

Also, I can't remember, but is there an instant where Lem reacts to Arya?

Again, great job :bowdown:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I agree with all of this and feel that there are cyclical events, history repeating itself, until the opposing elements and balance are put back into play.

The chasm between the mystical Starks and Tarygaryens, and all the events and people who attempt to keep them apart have to be stopped for that balance to be achieved.

Also, I can't remember, but is there an instant where Lem reacts to Arya?

Again, great job :bowdown:

Well she breaks his nose in their first chapter together (before her identity is revealed) and he kind of steers clear of her after that :lol:

But I noticed something else connecting Arya to Lyanna which I just replied to you in another thread. Since it really belongs in this one, here it is:

When Arya first discovers that she is a hostage to the BwB she impulsively tries to escape on horseback. She is pursued by Harwin, Greenbeard and Lem. When he finally catches her, Harwin (who, while he may have been born before Lyanna died, woud have been a very young child when she disappeared) says to Arya

"You ride like a northman, milady... Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna."

For me this image of Arya fleeing across the Riverlands from three men on horseback powerfully evoked the image of Lyanna as KotLT, fleeing (metaphorically or not...) from her three pursuers (according to Meera Reed): Robert, Richard Lonmouth and Rhaegar.

Eta- Added to the song that Tom sings at Acorn Hall that DP quoted a couple of pages back, I'm really starting to see a Lyanna/KotLT theme here :)

[Alia of the knife]

Well she breaks his nose in their first chapter together (before her identity is revealed) and he kind of steers clear of her after that :lol:

But I noticed something else connecting Arya to Lyanna which I just replied to you in another thread. Since it really belongs in this one, here it is:

When Arya first discovers that she is a hostage to the BwB she impulsively tries to escape on horseback. She is pursued by Harwin, Greenbeard and Lem. When he finally catches her, Harwin (who, while he may have been born before Lyanna died, woud have been a very young child when she disappeared) says to Arya

For me this image of Arya fleeing across the Riverlands from three men on horseback powerfully evoked the image of Lyanna as KotLT, fleeing (metaphorically or not...) from her three pursuers (according to Meera Reed): Robert, Richard Lonmouth and Rhaegar.

Eta- Added to the song that Tom sings at Acorn Hall that DP quoted a couple of pages back, I'm really starting to see a Lyanna/KotLT theme here :)

I am definitely in need of a re-read, but that's right.

And as another pointed out, within this group you have Edric, Arya, and Gendry. Gendry has already displayed some hostility towards Edric, and Arya eventually softened up around Edric, as well as sharing a sunset.

It's not Rhaegar and Robert, nor even Bloodraven and Bittersteele, but the potential triangle is still the same.

[upfish]

i'm into it. i don't know if it will ever be proven, but i think grrm likes to make hints at connections (such as the black cat that arya catches in kings landing being belirion princess rhaynees cat)

[Alia of the knife]

i'm into it. i don't know if it will ever be proven, but i think grrm likes to make hints at connections (such as the black cat that arya catches in kings landing being belirion princess rhaynees cat)

:agree:

[Dr. Pepper]

Apple brought it up to me that in the Sworn Sword, Lem is often confused for Dake. Which is a great find and might be an easter egg.

In A Storm of Swords, it's pointed out that Lem is probably not his real name.

This great lout with the brown teeth is Lem, short for Lemoncloak. It’s yellow, you see, and Lem’s a sour sort.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

^ Yeah, I don't know if it means anything, but it struck me right away. The guy's real name is Dake but Osgrey keeps calling him Lem. "That's not his name, Ser."

[Grip]

I like it, think its an interesting theory. Imo its certainly not as far fetched as some other theories out there.

[SpaceChampion]

Wow, cool theory.

I'm wondering if Lonmouth and Benjen both were instrumental in arranging for Rhaegar and Lyanna to rendezvous, so might know each other, though briefly. First rule of Guilt Club is you don't talk about Guilt Club. I also like the Benjen warged into a wight to become Coldhands theory, so if Lem eventually goes north to the Wall to help fight the Others, and meets up with Coldhands.... they could be like "hey". "Oh hey." "Um... too much guilt! Let's not talk about that!"

I was thinking how all this is going to end, and I'm expecting some sort of Great Council to be called to sort out who should rule Westeros, because with all the hidden nobles and secret Targs and Blackfyres, it's either going to take an 8th book, or its going to take a lot of talking to sort things out. I think Littlefinger might even call the Great Council together up at Castle Black, hoping to pull a Cromwell and become Lord Protector of Westeros, on behalf of a new Parliament. Eventually Howland Reed, Lonmouth, Coldhands etc. reveal what they know and Jon become a candidate.

[The Mother of The Others]

might be able to do something like, say, vouch for Rhaegar and Lyanna's romance if it became necessary.

whoa. thanks. can close my eyes and see it. The only drawback to this is if Lem's value was in showing us what happens when an everyman is driven batty by the lords' mess. But if he's deeply connected like you're saying, that'd make his chapters less drab on rereads, less like "why am I reading about this guy again?"

[Pearlthegirl]

This is very interesting and cool. It could amount to nothing but there are reasonable clues to make the connection! I really never liked Lem of all the BwB but this theory provides the missing backstory to know/understand the character more. It makes him less of a big yellow jerk in my eyes, to a broken man of war(at least dented), mocked by his own house words as he chose between friends. It was this understanding mayhaps I needed to be more sympathetic to the character?

And Wow, Cheers, Thanks for continuing to root out this good stuff in our fair Martin's masterpiece! I am in awe!

[HannibalStark]

As far as I remember, doesn't Lem speak like with a low-born, smallfolk dialect? Of course this could just be a cover but wouldn't a squire for the crown prince speak like he spent time in the capital?

I think this is much less of an issue, especially when it has been brought up how "educated" people know that there is a difference in how people talk and how difference between my lady and m'lady is something that people pay attention too.

Someone that is smart enough to hide all these years, my guess would be smart enough to know to say m'lord to prevent people from looking twice at him. I'll have to pay attention now but are there any cases where Lem "drops" his 'm'lord' peasant talk when he is mad? i.e. he might be more apt to revert to his normal speech pattern when he is not thinking about it.

[HannibalStark]

Here's a quote:

“You must be a lackwit, boy,” said Lem. “We’re outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don’t think it’ll be like Tom’s fool songs neither. You won’t be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you’ll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate.”

Says most of them are lowborn scum and seems to include himself. I'm still not considering his speech or this lowborn scum comment to be killers to the theory. I do like the bolded portion. Stealing kisses, indeed (though obviously referencing the kingswood brotherhood). And riding in tourneys with stolen, ill-fitting armor we've seen somewhere...

I clocked this comment about Lem talking about Stolen Armor the first time I read it....it seemed so random and out of place to me that it stood out-I like that I have a reasonable explanation for why he said it now.

[Our Blades Are Sharp]

More pot than crack, i want to believe

[Mithras]

"A silver stag for your dreams, my lady." Lord Beric said, with solemn courtesy. "Another if you have news for us."

"I cannot eat a silver stag, nor ride one. A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak." The little woman cackled. "Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old."

"Aye," Lem complained. "Too old for wine and kisses. All you'll get from me is the flat of my sword, crone."

Another kiss and bone reference for Lem. Ghost of High Heart is a bit mocking him.

By the way I remember Lem's nose was already broken and in bad shape. Then Arya broke his nose again. It would be very cool if Lyanna broke his nose in the first place where she was discovered by Richard and Rhaegar.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm wondering if Lonmouth even fought on the Targaryen side during the Rebellion. I would assume he did because Barristan talks about how he was close friends with and a squire to Rhaegar, but the bulk of the info we get about Richard is from a semi-canon citadel entry on westeros, and it's not even sourced. I trust what the citadel has to say as I'm assuming this was valid info passed to Ran (or one of the artists) that was then passed on to us. But...there's just weird stuff about it all.

Myles was squire, Richard was squire after him and both were knighted by Rhaegar. Lonmouth was knighted by the Tourney at Harrenhal so he was no longer squiring. Still, Barristan says both Myles and Lonmouth remained close companions to Rhaegar yet he also talks about how Jon Con was his close companion, but there are issues brought up in the text to suggest the friendship between them wasn't really all that close.

We know Myles died at the Battle of the Bells but there's no mention of Richard. The Citadel is what tells us that House Lonmouth is from the Stormlands. Stannis had this conversation with Davos about choice - choice between king and liege lord, between king and brother and how he had to make the choice to choose one or the other and it was a difficult choice to make. Did Richard Lonmouth have to make the same choice? Did he have to choose between his liege lord/drinking buddy and his king and prince/knight buddy?

It's at Stoney Sept, at the Peach Inn, when Tansy (the buxom red-haired inkeep) drops the kingsuard line to Lem. The same inn that Robert was said to have enjoyed all of the ladies, especially Bella's mother. At the Tourney of Harrenhal, Richard and Robert are brought up in tandem, performing the same activities. First, playing a drinking game and second swearing to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree. It's easy from there to imagine them both previously drinking together before the Battle of the Bells.

Just some thoughts. Did he make the wrong choice? Did the choice break him? Is he not mentioned again in the story because he wasn't fighting alongside the Targaryens but alongside his liege lord? Could Lonmouth have been apart of the loyalist houses from the Stormlands that was defeated at Summerhal, and then switched sides?

Lem also has a serious hard on for the Lannisters. He was the first to draw a blade on the Hound in the cave. Later he was all about catching the Kingslayer. He was all for Brienne being hung for being a Lannister woman, and invoked the memory of his dead wife and daughter. He's also the one who forced Brienne to make a choice as she was still trying to plead for Hyle and Pod before Lem took the rope and yanked her up where she finally made her choice.

I'm still curious about this wife and daughter. There seems to be no indication of when or where they died. Yet it's brought up when Brienne is being hung, and soon after Lem had called her the Kingslayer's whore. Is there any reason his wife and daughter had been in KL when it was sacked? Or is it more likely they were in the Riverlands when it was sacked? Either way, it does seem like their deaths were associated with Lannister sacking.

Thanks for summing it all up so nicely. I missed this discussion in early September.

Mayhaps Lem wasn't really referring to his own wife and daughter but to Rhaegar's wife and daughter. Maybe that's what broke him. After fought against his prince, friend and mentor at the Trident for Robert he saw the Lannisters brutally murder Rhaegar's wife and daughter (and the pisswater prince)?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Good question. Without being inside his head, we don't know whether he recognizes him or not. Thoros and Beric should recognize him, too, having been at court with Robert. Do they?

Well the boy lived in KL and nobody there ever pointed it out to him since he had no clue.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Another kiss and bone reference for Lem. Ghost of High Heart is a bit mocking him.

By the way I remember Lem's nose was already broken and in bad shape. Then Arya broke his nose again. It would be very cool if Lyanna broke his nose in the first place where she was discovered by Richard and Rhaegar.

Yeah, I'm sold.