Crackpot Alert: Might Lem Be Richard Lonmouth?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Two things: 1) Myles Mooton gives Rhaegar and company access to Maidenpool, a port either coming or going to Dragonstone. 2) Lonmouth might have been tasked with informing Robert Baratheon and somehow failed in this task.

Did the AWoIaF book mention where Rhaegar and company left from on the way to the Riverlands? I don't have the book on hand.

From KL, IICR

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Two things: 1) Myles Mooton gives Rhaegar and company access to Maidenpool, a port either coming or going to Dragonstone. 2) Lonmouth might have been tasked with informing Robert Baratheon and somehow failed in this task.

Did the AWoIaF book mention where Rhaegar and company left from on the way to the Riverlands? I don't have the book on hand.

Here is the passage for reference:

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands, not ten leagues from Harrenhal . . . where Rhaegar would once again come face-to-face with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and with her light a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

I think this makes it sound like he was last seen on Dragonstone and had been absent from King's Landing for some time. Taking ship to Maidenpool might make sense as it would remove any chance of them passing through KL en route to the Riverlands. It's possible Lonmouth (and Mooton) may have been in a part of the group that broke away and was perhaps heading back to the vicinity of KL bearing messages. Two groups of four riders heading in opposite directions might explain why Brandon rode to KL, if he were perhaps in pursuit of the wrong group. Aerys' subsequent actions wrt the Starks may have prompted Lonmouth, who was apparently a supporter of "regime change", to ultimately side with Robert, bringing us full circle to that theme of "choice" :)

[Ser Leftwich]

Interesting that we have both Rhaegar and company as well as Brandon and company wandering about the Riverlands at the same time, after winter had returned. What was so important that they were out and about during winter?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Interesting that we have both Rhaegar and company as well as Brandon and company wandering about the Riverlands at the same time, after winter had returned. What was so important that they were out and about during winter?

Brandon was returning to his own wedding. About Rhaegar... that's the mystery.

[Ser Leftwich]

“A bite.” She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. “My lord, you gave me a quest.”

“The girl. Have you found her?”

“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

“Where is she?”

“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.” - ADwD p. 646

Who was the last person to have the helmet of the Hound?!?!

Jaime would have know Ser Richard Lonmouth.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

“A bite.” She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. “My lord, you gave me a quest.”

“The girl. Have you found her?”

“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

“Where is she?”

“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.” - ADwD p. 646

Who was the last person to have the helmet of the Hound?!?!

Jaime would have know Ser Richard Lonmouth.

Exactly where I think we're heading for a reveal with this one :D

[PrettyPig]

Not important in the least, but I am head-convinced that Lem's wife and child are Weasel and her dying mother that Arya meets while traveling with Yoren. The location is perfect, and Lem could have easily discovered his sacked village, his wife's severed arm, and his missing (and presumed dead to him) daughter.

[hiemal]

Sounds good to me. The chances of lem being some no-named grunt seem slim given GRRM's MO, so this is plausible.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

“A bite.” She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. “My lord, you gave me a quest.”

“The girl. Have you found her?”

“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

“Where is she?”

“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.” - ADwD p. 646

Who was the last person to have the helmet of the Hound?!?!

Jaime would have know Ser Richard Lonmouth.

Very nice. And yes I can see Jaime being the one to sort it out. Although it'd be funny if Lem kept the Hound helm on the whole time. :P

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I came across this when I googled Lonmouth...I'm driving myself crazy by trying to decipher Patchface! I know it doesn't work out timeline wise that Patchface is Richard but I was trying to see if any other members of House Lonmouth were mentioned (other than the Knight of Kisses). Sadly I'm getting no where with the fool.

Anyways...I read all 9 pages and I think you can safely edit the OP and remove 'Crackpot' from the title.

This fits with the timeline and all known descriptions of both Lem & Lonmouth align.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I just remembered this quote, where Lem's cloak is said to be the color of piss. It's said by the buxom red-haired inkeep in Stoney Sept (not sure her name).

Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You’re afraid all the piss will wash out and we’ll see you’re really a knight o’ the Kingsguard!

It's just talk, but there is that deliberate connection GRRM made with the KG and thus the royal family.

I will give my two cents on this.

ASoS, Chapter 29, Arya V

The buxom red-haired innkeep howled with pleasure at the sight of them, then promptly set to tweaking them. “Greenbeard, is it? Or Greybeard? Mother take mercy, when did you get so old? Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You’re afraid all the piss will wash out and we’ll see you’re really a knight o’ the Kingsguard! And Tom o’ Sevens, you randy old goat! You come to see that son o’ yours? Well, you’re too late, he’s off riding with that bloody Huntsman. And don’t tell me he’s not yours!”

...

“Beds we got,” said red-haired Tansy. “There’s never been no lack o’ beds at the Peach. But you’ll all climb in a tub first. Last time you lot stayed under my roof you left your fleas behind.” She poked Greenbeard in the chest. “And yours was green, too. You want food?”

“If you can spare it, we won’t say no,” Tom conceded.

“Now when did you ever say no to anything, Tom?” the woman hooted. “I’ll roast some mutton for your friends, and an old dry rat for you. It’s more than you deserve, but if you gargle me a song or three, might be I’ll weaken. I always pity the afflicted. Come on, come on. Cass, Lanna, put some kettles on. Jyzene, help me get the clothes off them, we’ll need to boil those too.”

Firstly...I can see her using the term Kingsguard mockingly in place of Knight. Meaning she probably does know who he is, or at least knows he is someone who does not need to be revealed.

The other lines I put in red go on to show that they really did make everyone bath and wash their clothes. All but Lem. Which, to me, reiterates that he is someone other than Lemoncloak. Tom o' Sevens describes Lem a "sour sort". I would be sour too if this is Richard Lonmouth. Not only did he lose Rhaegar and then Robert but his family too.

Lonmouth colors are yellow (Or) & black (Sable). Yellow cloak. Black iron halfhelm.

Many times there are references to Lem's teeth (mouth)...subtle hint to Lonmouth?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The other lines I put in red go on to show that they really did make everyone bath and wash their clothes. All but Lem. Which, to me, reiterates that he is someone other than Lemoncloak. Tom o' Sevens describes Lem a "sour sort". I would be sour too if this is Richard Lonmouth. Not only did he lose Rhaegar and then Robert but his family too.

Maybe he doesn't need a bath because being a knight he's already kinda clean? If he is indeed Richard, he was not some ordinary knight either, he lived in court.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Maybe he doesn't need a bath because being a knight he's already kinda clean? If he is indeed Richard, he was not some ordinary knight either, he lived in court.

All the more reason to tease with the term Kingsguard. But then...she would certainly know his true identity if she makes such a jape.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

All the more reason to tease with the term Kingsguard. But then...she would certainly know his true identity if she makes such a jape.

They probably just know he's a knight. That's a brothel, right? They received a lot of different men, including knights. They would know and recognise one, I suppose.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

They probably just know he's a knight. That's a brothel, right? They received a lot of different men, including knights. They would know and recognise one, I suppose.

True enough.

I do like this theory. I never gave it much thought until I stumbled across it.

Bless the search ability of eBooks! I have all 5 books, TWoIaF, 3 D&E, both history novellas and the combined book AFwD...My iPad gets used more for searching the text than it does for anything else...or so it would seem!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

True enough.

I do like this theory. I never gave it much thought until I stumbled across it.

I did like it, but after TWOIAF, I think it's more important than we assume.

Richard might have known something about Rhaegar and the alleged "kidnapping". I am quite sure he was among the group of friends who went to the Riverlands. Maybe he got fed up of Rhaegar's prophecies? Or he didn't want to remove Aerys. Who knows.

I think at some point, he simply switched. It's odd that he wasn't in the Stoney Sept along with Mooton, Lewyin and Darry. His participation is not mentioned at all. Richard also was in court with Mooton and Jon before the Rebellion. I wonder if he actually sold (or unintentionally told) the Rebels some information about Jon's plans, like, how many men he had or what he was planning to do. Kisses also represent betrayal (Judas).

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I did like it, but after TWOIAF, I think it's more important than we assume.

Richard might have known something about Rhaegar and the alleged "kidnapping". I am quite sure he was among the group of friends who went to the Riverlands. Maybe he got fed up of Rhaegar's prophecies? Or he didn't want to remove Aerys. Who knows.

I think at some point, he simply switched. It's odd that he wasn't in the Stoney Sept along with Mooton, Lewyin and Darry. His participation is not mentioned at all. Richard also was in court with Mooton and Jon before the Rebellion. I wonder if he actually sold (or unintentionally told) the Rebels some information about Jon's plans, like, how many men he had or what he was planning to do. Kisses also represent betrayal (Judas).

I'm still working through it all since this a new theory to me. I agree that he will be of some importance because like it is stated throughout this thread...the story of the KotLT has major players throughout, and we know about them to an extend...nothing on Lonmouth...which is odd because even Griff was said to have drunk himself to death. Right? How long before he appeared was that stated?

Lonmouth was friends with Rhaegar & Robert. Robert is betrothed to Lyanna. Rhaegar & Lyanna meet at Harrenhal; sparks fly(mayhaps). Lonmouth knows of this and is uncomfortable but nothing more happens at this time. Lonmouth si releaved. Time passes, Lonmouth was not part of Rhaegar's party that came upon Lyanna. Lonmouth learns of this and his guilt rises. He inadvertently provides info to the rebels. JonCon is defeated and he goes into exile. Lonmouth breaks emotionally because he is betraying all he loved but the betrayal wasn't intentional.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. This saying makes me think of Lonmouth's possible path. There are a lot of subtle hints (that have been pointed out in this thread) that point to this...IMO.

He knows Lyanna, at least at Harrenhal, had fallen for Rhaegar...so the story of be abducted against her will doesn't set well with him.

And Jaime Lannister should know him. Albeit a lot of time has passed but his size, mannerism and voice may all lead Jaime into recognizing him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm still working through it all since this a new theory to me. I agree that he will be of some importance because like it is stated throughout this thread...the story of the KotLT has major players throughout, and we know about them to an extend...nothing on Lonmouth...which is odd because even Griff was said to have drunk himself to death. Right? How long before he appeared was that stated?

Jaime mentions that in Feast, when he slaps Ronnet (LOL). Before that, Barristan tells Dany that Jon and Richard were Rhaegar's friends, in Storm. The same book in which Meera tells the Kotlt story, and mentions that Richard was Robert's drinking buddy.

BTW, Griff is also mentioned in the story of the KotLT. Indeed, mayor characters are mentioned there. Why mention them both? Griff eventually appeared alive, what about Richard? That's what makes me wonder if Jon and Lem/Richard will met again eventually. That won't be nice.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Jaime mentions that in Feast, when he slaps Ronnet (LOL). Before that, Barristan tells Dany that Jon and Richard were Rhaegar's friends, in Storm. The same book in which Meera tells the Kotlt story, and mentions that Richard was Robert's drinking buddy.

BTW, Griff is also mentioned in the story of the KotLT. Indeed, mayor characters are mentioned there. Why mention them both? Griff eventually appeared alive, what about Richard? That's what makes me wonder if Jon and Lem/Richard will met again eventually. That won't be nice.

This would be a confrontation I would LOVE to read...I hope it happens. If they start with a verbal spat, we may learn A LOT about the events between the tournament and the trident (or where ever Lonmouth's story ends).

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

And Jaime Lannister should know him. Albeit a lot of time has passed but his size, mannerism and voice may all lead Jaime into recognizing him.

Jaime should spend quite a bit of time on recognition when he runs into the Brotherhood Without Banners

"Hey, aren't you Richard Lonmouth....and aren't you the Master of Horse from Winterfell....and aren't you that Tyroshi captain of that sellsword company my father hired....and aren't you that weird Red Priest who would light his swords......and aren't you, AHHH, fuck, Catelyn Tully?!?!