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Illyrio Mo'Parties

(f)Aegon foreshadowed?

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I'm not sure where to put this - I couldn't find like an all-purpose (f)Aegon thread, and this involves Winds of Winter, and outside references, so... whatever, I'll move it if I have to. But I was just reading the Arianne sample chapter from TWOW and, well...

Arianne's off to find Aegon, and the chapter begins thus:

They struck out north by northwest...

North By Northwest is a movie that revolves around a case of mistaken identity, as numerous spies and whatnot chase down a man they believe is in possession of some kind of thingamy (I forget what it is), unaware that he's not the man they're looking for. Possible intertextual (f)Aegon foreshadowing? O_o *strokes chin*

I'm generally not convinced by these random bits of foreshadowing, and I don't buy into the (f)Aegon theory either. But what the hell, I couldn't resist!

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There are more reasonable and convincing evidence that he is fake :laugh: . I like the idea though.

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Well if your disagreement with the (f)Aegon theory is based on other evidence that's that limp, no wonder you're skeptical. :P

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I (mis)took the part of Quaithe's prophecy about "dark flame" as foreshadowing for Aegon being a Blackfyre..

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Lol, I don't have a good reason not to buy into it, it just smells wrong to me. Narrative calculus: it would massively overcomplicate the story at a very late stage, and there's not enough room left to resolve it. You'd end up with a situation like Harry Potter, where (spoiler alert!) the climactic final battle consists of Harry spending five minutes explaining the entire ownership history of the MacGuffin Super Wand 5000 that didn't get mentioned once before book 7. And then he zaps him and the book ends. Also, I get confused by all the Blackfyre/Illyrio stuff.

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Lol, I don't have a good reason not to buy into it, it just smells wrong to me. Narrative calculus: it would massively overcomplicate the story at a very late stage, and there's not enough room left to resolve it. You'd end up with a situation like Harry Potter, where (spoiler alert!) the climactic final battle consists of Harry spending five minutes explaining the entire ownership history of the MacGuffin Super Wand 5000 that didn't get mentioned once before book 7. And then he zaps him and the book ends. Also, I get confused by all the Blackfyre/Illyrio stuff.

The Blackfyre/Illyrio stuff is simple: Illyrio married Serra, that would be a Blackfyre. Their son (Aegon) would be a Blackfyre by female line, and that's why Illyrio is trying to put him in the IT.

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But how's Serra a Blackfyre? You know what, I'd better just find a (f)Aegon thread

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Here's a good thread about the black dragon inn sign that washed up on the Quiet Isle rusted Red:

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Lol, I don't have a good reason not to buy into it, it just smells wrong to me. Narrative calculus: it would massively overcomplicate the story at a very late stage, and there's not enough room left to resolve it. You'd end up with a situation like Harry Potter, where (spoiler alert!) the climactic final battle consists of Harry spending five minutes explaining the entire ownership history of the MacGuffin Super Wand 5000 that didn't get mentioned once before book 7. And then he zaps him and the book ends. Also, I get confused by all the Blackfyre/Illyrio stuff.

Aegon, no matter the identity, complicates the story. He's an unknown entering at a late stage. Even if he's son of Rhaegar, there will be serious questions about his identity since so many saw his body with his head dashed in. His appearance complicates control of King's Landing, complicates Stannis' hold of Storm's End, complicates Dany's entry into Westeros. An Aegon has been foreshadowed throughout the text. It was subtle but it was there. We were specifically warned about Illyrio. Illyrio's dubious scheming was shown to us in Dany's very first chapter where she kept questioning what he got out of helping them.

I doubt the reader will get a sure confirmation on Aegon's identity within the text. The reader would have to figure out which identity answers the most questions. I gather in future texts we will learn why the Blackfyre angle is important to the overall story. Right now, I don't think we have enough information to know why it's important, but we do have enough to know which identity leaves the least questions unanswered.

Here's a great thread about it: Blackfyre Triangle

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Aegon, no matter the identity, complicates the story...

Agreed, but I think the Blackfyre angle is an additional wrinkle. It's a big reveal, in ADWD, that the little baby whose death we've heard so much about and which motivated so many plot points is alive after all, and that several of the novel's schemers are working on his behalf. It would be another big reveal on top of that for the dead baby who turned out to be alive to turn out to be someone else; it's one thing for the events that we thought the story was built on to be wrong, it's another for that revelation to be undercut by a further revelation that the whole thing is motivated by some extremely obscure backstory involving a war from 100 years before. It'd be like: "Luke, I am your father!" and then in the next movie the Emperor pops up and goes "Darth, I am your father! Psych!"

This of course doesn't invalidate the theory at all, in fact, the more I read the more plausible it seems (and thanks for the links). It's possible that GRRM could handle the complications with aplomb, and of course one thing the story keeps building to is that the political intrigues matter very little when winter is coming ("summer's the time for squabbling"). So it may even be possible for him to breeze right past these complications. At this point, anybody's claim is as strong as Aegon's anyway. The realm's a mess, so the throne will go to the first person who can unite the 7 kingdoms again, and it won't matter what the machinations were to get them there.

But, I don't know, it still smells wrong. We shall see!

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Interesting indeed, yes, yes. Could be nothing, could be everything. After all is said and done, I wish someone would ask GRRM if he knows about this movie.

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Arianne's off to find Aegon, and the chapter begins thus:

North By Northwest is a movie that revolves around a case of mistaken identity, as numerous spies and whatnot chase down a man they believe is in possession of some kind of thingamy (I forget what it is), unaware that he's not the man they're looking for. Possible intertextual (f)Aegon foreshadowing? O_o *strokes chin*

But the protagonist has the problem, that everyone confuses him with somebody else, and he can't convince anyone that he's not that person. Doesn't fit (f)Aegon.

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But the protagonist has the problem, that everyone confuses him with somebody else, and he can't convince anyone that he's not that person. Doesn't fit (f)Aegon.

Yeah, it's pretty thin. Like I said, I don't actually believe it myself, I just thought it was an interesting little tidbit.

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I was looking for a thread in which to post a bit of (f)Aegon evidence I found, when I came across this one. Honestly, this seems like the sort of reference one could expect from GRRM. I know it hasn't received a lot of love here, but I like it.

I hope the OP doesn't mind too much if I also post my unrelated (f)Aegon find below. :)

I found something that is pretty interesting, and I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before. There are three instances of "square-cut" rubies in the series, so far. And all of the rubies are described as being large.

ACoK, Catelyn III:

As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore.
A sword glamored as Lightbringer.

ADwD, Jon IV:

“Here he comes,” he said when he saw Jon, “the brave boy who slew Mance Rayder when he was caged and bound.” The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. “Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o’ love from Lady Red.”
Mance glamored as Rattleshirt.

ADwD, The Lost Lord:

When the lad emerged from the cabin with Lemore by his side, Griff looked him over carefully from head to heel. The prince wore sword and dagger, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk. With his hair washed and cut and freshly dyed a deep, dark blue, his eyes looked blue as well. At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colors. That was good. “You look a proper prince,” he told the boy. “Your father would be proud if he could see you.”
A boy "glamored" as Rhaegar's son. Also, note that the rubies are on a chain of black iron, which ties into the well known "Clanking Dragon" story from AFfC, Brienne VII:

When Podrick asked the name of the inn where they hoped to spend the night, Septon Meribald seized upon the question eagerly, perhaps to take their minds off the grisly sentinels along the roadside. “The Old Inn, some call it. There has been an inn there for many hundreds of years, though this inn was only raised during the reign of the first Jaehaerys, the king who built the kingsroad. Jaehaerys and his queen slept there during their journeys, it is said. For a time the inn was known as the Two Crowns in their honor, until one innkeep built a bell tower, and changed it to the Bellringer Inn. Later it passed to a crippled knight named Long Jon Heddle, who took up ironworking when he grew too old to fight. He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon.”



Of course YG isn't actually glamored, not magically anyway. But he is being dressed up and passed off as something he's not; Aegon Targaryen.

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Well, first things first, even if he isn't a Targ, he'll be a Blackfyre! So he'll have the blood anyhow!

Secondly, I want him to be real because R+L=J even if it is true, wouldn't count for anything. ;D

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I was looking for a thread in which to post a bit of (f)Aegon evidence I found, when I came across this one. Honestly, this seems like the sort of reference one could expect from GRRM. I know it hasn't received a lot of love here, but I like it.

I hope the OP doesn't mind too much if I also post my unrelated (f)Aegon find below. :)

OP doesn't mind at all, OP welcomes all comments, OP's just glad of the attention

There are three instances of "square-cut" rubies in the series, so far. And all of the rubies are described as being large... A sword glamored as Lightbringer... Mance glamored as Rattleshirt ...A boy "glamored" as Rhaegar's son. Also, note that the rubies are on a chain of black iron, which ties into the well known "Clanking Dragon" story from AFfC, Brienne VII...

Of course YG isn't actually glamored, not magically anyway. But he is being dressed up and passed off as something he's not; Aegon Targaryen.

Great catch! Add this to the pile of evidence in favour of the (f)Aegon theory. I still don't buy it, but purely for the reasons of narrative calculus outlined above. I'll happily concede that the theory is as well justified as the Standard Model, or whatever the official theory is called (Fake Aegon? The (f)Aegon theory?).

Does this have any implications for Rhaegar?

Well, first things first, even if he isn't a Targ, he'll be a Blackfyre! So he'll have the blood anyhow!

Unless he's just some random street rat Illyrio found in a Pentoshi garbage can.

Secondly, I want him to be real because R+L=J even if it is true, wouldn't count for anything. ;D

So, if I understand you correctly, you want the RLJ theory to be effectively invalidated, thus dashing the hopes and dreams of millions?

You're right, that'd be hilarious :) Way to fuck with the nerds, George!

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:laugh: I like it, but then again I like anything that even vaguely looks like foreshadowing.

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