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Heresy 71


Black Crow

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Is she holding both at the same time? I dont remember what point in the book this is.

I think it was she only fed her own on one and Mance's on the other? That is what I remember thinking, but that wouldn't make much sense...it would lead to very different sizes on the chest and I imagine great pain? But I am not a woman and will never have to experience that. Thank god! LOL

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Maybe he is looking for something from a prophecy?

Or maybe a COTF tunnel system?

Isn't that what Jon and Ygritte were in? It seemed to me that was most likely just one of the caves the COTF used...but now that I think of it, isn't that why some of you are mentioning Grendels children are hungry? As in the COTF are actually the ones who would attack anybody who made it to far down their tunnels?

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Well... its one of these things.

On the one hand we have that clear statement from Gilly's mother and that other woman (perhaps Nella?) that the white walkers are Craster's sons. They have no reason to lie, yet the story is still dismissed in some quarters as unreliable, because the women are clearly ignorant and can't possibly know what they're talking about.

On the other hand we have Leaf, a representative of a race betrayed, persecuted and harried to near destruction by men, assuring Bran that all they want to do is help mankind, honest...

The argument is NOT that Craster's Wives 'are ignorant & can't possibly know what they are talking about', though HBO certainly portrays Gilly in such a way.

The argument is that Craster's Wives were mistaken. They saw people dressed in all white, with white bear skins pinned at the shoulders, and wearing antlers (dressed much like Val when she returned with Tormund), as depicted in this picture from the Illustrated version of ASOS:

Picture #4 at this link: http://richardhescox.yolasite.com/a-clash-of-kings-gallery.php

Craster's Wives mistook these figures for Others.

When considering these facts, please bear in mind these facts:

  1. Others had not been seen or heard of in 8,000 years at the time of Craster's sacrifice in question. Following the end of the Long Night, there is Zero evidence that Others have been in Westeros prior to the events in AGOTs Prologue
  2. Others have never been described by Martin as wearing antlers or white robes
  3. The picture linked above looks Nothing like alternate pictures of Others that have received GRRM's praise for accuracy - Therefore the image linked above is not a picture of Others - Therefore Others were not taking Craster's Sons...

Here is a picture of Others that recieved GRRM's praise for accuracy:

http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/a-song-of-ice-and-fire/images/23909902/title/song-ice-fire-2012-calendar-images-november-others-photo

They can't both be pictures of Others.

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I'll take your word on that. I have no idea on the cause, best guess is a stark-less Winterfell maybe?

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"....when winter comes? "Winter is coming"

Now that there isnt, whatever is in Winterfell is now being released.

Possibly related to the Old Stark Kings spirits being released due to their iron swords rusting off their tombs.

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Busy night...

OK, rather than dissect every post:

The big problem with the Others/White Walkers business is their numbers or rather their lack of numbers. As readers all we've actually seen are the six who scragged Ser Waymar, and of course Ser Puddles, who may or may not have been one of that six. Otherwise at the present time we've got the white walkers glimpsed on the shore near Eastwatch, number unknown but sounding like not very many, white shadows in the woods, numbers unknown but again unlikely to be more than one or two. And then of course we have some turning up at Craster's place. More than one obviously but no suggestion of a large party.

Historically its the same. Old Nan speaks of them riding dead horses and leading armies of the slain, and afterwords hunting young maidens through the woods as Ramsay Snow/Bolton does - whether in conscious imitation or not.

This does, as I suggested earlier, point to their being something like the hired guns from Texas, brought in to run off the settlers rather than an invading army in their own right. Which in turn fuels the heretical belief that they are not the ultimate enemy but the tools of somebody we've already encountered in the story; and there it comes down to the children who have both the motive and the magic and who so far have been conspicuously silent on the subject.

At this point in time I see no reason not to believe that Craster's boys can raise the dead, just as Thoros and some others of the Red Lot can, but they are probably the users rather than the originators of the magic, and I still think that booby-trapping Ser Waymar's body to react to Will's heat signature shows they have a sense of humour.

As to the shades. That, I think was simply Ygritte expressing her horror of grave robbing, they were looking for the horn as a way to get through the Wall because they were already under pressure from the blue-eyed lot.

But we have seen Thoros raise the dead there is no ambiguity there,we have yet to see any Popisees do that,by now why cloak that in mystery.There is a reason for that ambiguity as well because every tale says for sure that Popsees raise the dead.But no one has ever seen it.To say that someone fought Popsees and rose later,or Popsees past by a few hours after Wights went by so they are responsible is something that a Lawyer would have a field day with.We see Popsiees but we can't say that something unseen is not a factor.

The fact that the cold is present doesn't necessairly mean that the fact that it's cold is to blame, there hasn't been anyting to tell us which is dominant in the WW/Cold relationship or even is such a dominance exist. For all we know the cold could be an side effect of the agic the WWs use rather than a separate phenomenon.

I'd also like to point out that the Wight hand (Othors) still moves when it is placed in a jar independently of the "cold".

I think this is incorrect. As you can see in the excerpts in my previous post the only one described with an axe wound is Jafer. Othor is described as having mortal wounds covering him like "a rash" which could have been made by anything.

Does the fact that they have a sense of humor (and thus a form of sentence) mean that as "hired guns" (if that's what they are) are they being "controlled" or actually hired? You've made it clear you think that they are acting on behalf of the Children of the Forest or at the very least , the COTF are using them to some degree.

My question is how exactly do you think this works. Specifically I mean. Are they being "paid" for their efforts? Are they subservient? Are they working independently (their apparent sentience could make this likely) and just happen to have the same goals as the Children, effectively making them "pardners"?

I'd like some clarity on this theory.

We have proof that the cold has to be considered,when the Popsiees are around as well as the Wights it gets cold very cold i'm not denying that.However, when you are around them you don't instantly freeze to death in place the way Wildlings did in ADWD.Also in AGOT when Jon was fighting Othor he had gutted him;he inhaled some type of cold mist that made him almost choke.He didn't say it smelled foul he said it smelled "cold" so i'm saying it is inside them.

Later on the Fist in ACOK i think it was Edd who smelled the same thing he described as "cold" Jon recognized it and called it 'death".I use this to say that the Cold entity is inside the Wights.But we can't say that the Popsiees KILL everyone they raise and they raise everyone that dies. They didn't kill Thistle,i doubt the wounds that are described on the walking dead i.e arrows,bites,axes still inside,spears impaled in them etc are caused by Popsiees.Sounds like a few people got in a few squabbles to me.Tourmands own son died according to Tourmond because of the cold.He said the boy was sickly,yet the son rose and Tourmound had to kill him.I can't recall if the boy remained in the camp or if he fell behind,but Popsees didn't kill him.

V.Sixskins death we see first hand his true death occurred when a shock of "cold" hit him.He saw Wights he saw no Popsiees. I'm not saying they weren't invisible i'm saying we can't do like the people of Westeros and blame them for every death that occurs when there is just speculation.

You are right, it does not matter if the Ice Pops kill them or not. Either way, the dead seem to rise no matter what. As to how, is a mystery. It still seems to me it is caused by the Others because they are in close proximity.

Even if the Children are controlling the dead to rise, what would then be the point of the Ice Pops? Are you suggesting that they are not a race of beings, but simply something made of magic to through humans off as to who is doing to destruction?

Also, if the COTF are controlling the Ice Pops it still seems very possible they are controlling them (or working with them) because the Ice Pops can raise such an army.

What would you say the point of the Ice Pops are if not to raise the dead?

I am saying that if Humans were in the land or not the Longnight would have still happened it is the death cycle.We have only had the luxury of having human POV.The land with its normal predator/prey relationship was in existent way before man came.The Cold i'm theorizing is a natural part of the cycle,it brings death and through the Popsicles remove the dead.Man had not been in the land long enough to be in a death cycle and when it occurred "the cold" claimed more in their numbers because like the Pilgrims they were un prepared for the new environment they were in.So when they got caught off guard they blamed inhabitants of the land for the problem that they did not understand.Just like the Pilgrims blamed the Native Indians for sending weird weather,and diseases which they never did.

So no to me the COTF aren't controlling the Popsiees,they knew what to do when they were in that cycle which is go underground and stay warm.If you were a conqurered people and you knew something about your land that the invaders didn't know would you tell them?

It does matter because at the end of the day the Popsiees can lead them,and there is a reason plot wise Jon is thinking along the lines of reasoning with the Wights( no go there) and the Popsiees( i think he has a chance). I don't think he can reason with "the Cold" but he can sure try with Popsiees.The point of the Popsiees is to do what they have been doing,lead the dead.

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"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"....when winter comes? "Winter is coming"

Now that there isnt, whatever is in Winterfell is now being released.

Possibly related to the Old Stark Kings spirits being released due to their iron swords rusting off their tombs.

Ok,so if they raise the snowstorm around the Wolfswood and Winterfell (or is that between the Wolfswood and Winterfell?)

Are they another form of 'The Cold' ?

Bear with me here and if the 'Winterfell Cold' can go from ethereal to a physical form with maybe a few white walkers, then could that see the wall come under threat from the South as well as North and be its undoing.

If one of the two armies are going to be wighted, then hopefully it's the Bolton mob.

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Isn't that what Jon and Ygritte were in? It seemed to me that was most likely just one of the caves the COTF used...but now that I think of it, isn't that why some of you are mentioning Grendels children are hungry? As in the COTF are actually the ones who would attack anybody who made it to far down their tunnels?

Very interesting observations. I meant Mance was looking for one when he was digging in the graves, further north than Grendels cave..

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Ok,so if they raise the snowstorm around the Wolfswood and Winterfell (or is that between the Wolfswood and Winterfell?)

Are they another form of 'The Cold' ?

Bear with me here and if the 'Winterfell Cold' can go from ethereal to a physical form with maybe a few white walkers, then could that see the wall come under threat from the South as well as North and be its undoing.

If one of the two armies are going to be wighted, then hopefully it's the Bolton mob.

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"....when winter comes? "Winter is coming"

Now that there isnt, whatever is in Winterfell is now being released.

Possibly related to the Old Stark Kings spirits being released due to their iron swords rusting off their tombs.

This is good work lads.You should start a thread about it!

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But we have seen Thoros raise the dead there is no ambiguity there,we have yet to see any Popisees do that,by now why cloak that in mystery.There is a reason for that ambiguity as well because every tale says for sure that Popsees raise the dead.But no one has ever seen it.To say that someone fought Popsees and rose later,or Popsees past by a few hours after Wights went by so they are responsible is something that a Lawyer would have a field day with.We see Popsiees but we can't say that something unseen is not a factor.

We have proof that the cold has to be considered,when the Popsiees are around as well as the Wights it gets cold very cold i'm not denying that.However, when you are around them you don't instantly freeze to death in place the way Wildlings did in ADWD.Also in AGOT when Jon was fighting Othor he had gutted him;he inhaled some type of cold mist that made him almost choke.He didn't say it smelled foul he said it smelled "cold" so i'm saying it is inside them.

Later on the Fist in ACOK i think it was Edd who smelled the same thing he described as "cold" Jon recognized it and called it 'death".I use this to say that the Cold entity is inside the Wights.But we can't say that the Popsiees KILL everyone they raise and they raise everyone that dies. They didn't kill Thistle,i doubt the wounds that are described on the walking dead i.e arrows,bites,axes still inside,spears impaled in them etc are caused by Popsiees.Sounds like a few people got in a few squabbles to me.Tourmands own son died according to Tourmond because of the cold.He said the boy was sickly,yet the son rose and Tourmound had to kill him.I can't recall if the boy remained in the camp or if he fell behind,but Popsees didn't kill him.

V.Sixskins death we see first hand his true death occurred when a shock of "cold" hit him.He saw Wights he saw no Popsiees. I'm not saying they weren't invisible i'm saying we can't do like the people of Westeros and blame them for every death that occurs when there is just speculation.

I am saying that if Humans were in the land or not the Longnight would have still happened it is the death cycle.We have only had the luxury of having human POV.The land with its normal predator/prey relationship was in existent way before man came.The Cold i'm theorizing is a natural part of the cycle,it brings death and through the Popsicles remove the dead.Man had not been in the land long enough to be in a death cycle and when it occurred "the cold" claimed more in their numbers because like the Pilgrims they were un prepared for the new environment they were in.So when they got caught off guard they blamed inhabitants of the land for the problem that they did not understand.Just like the Pilgrims blamed the Native Indians for sending weird weather,and diseases which they never did.

So no to me the COTF aren't controlling the Popsiees,they knew what to do when they were in that cycle which is go underground and stay warm.If you were a conqurered people and you knew something about your land that the invaders didn't know would you tell them?

It does matter because at the end of the day the Popsiees can lead them,and there is a reason plot wise Jon is thinking along the lines of reasoning with the Wights( no go there) and the Popsiees( i think he has a chance). I don't think he can reason with "the Cold" but he can sure try with Popsiees.The point of the Popsiees is to do what they have been doing,lead the dead.

What are you saying is raising the dead? I think that is where my confusion lies with your theory.

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Tell people that if they are that interested in what you have to say, then they look can look up their own quotes, damn-it...

That is what I would advise anyway...

Cheers. Not sure that's anywhere near a theory but I am curious on the cold or The Cold.

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What are you saying is raising the dead? I think that is where my confusion lies with your theory.

I'm sorry for clarification I am saying that " the cold" that is being spoken of by witnesses is an entity by itself and it is that which is raising the dead.As in the case of the Wildlings in AGOT etc.The lumping together of the cold that is emitted by the Popsicles and the Wights and "the cold" that comes upon suddenly and instantly freezes you in place is something different is yet another example of individuals misidentifying and trying to make sense of what they think is going on.

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I thought "no hinges here and no doors" referred Euron going into his room at night when he was little?

Was it Euron who came into his room at night or Urri?

Feast for Crows - The Prophet

The sound came softly, the scream of a rusted hinge "Urri," he muttered and woke, fearful. There is no door here, no hinge, no Urri.

He had a terrible guilt over Urri losing half his hand playing the finger game together. It's after Urri's death that Balon returns with Euron and Victarion. Aeron describes himself as the weakest of the brothers and despised and ridiculed by Balon, whom he admires for all his iron born virtues. Now he drowns little boys and gives them the kiss of life. I'm not sure what this says about Aeron. He says it's better to be despised by Balon than loved by Euron. It leads to all kinds of speculation about Euron and Aeron. But I'm not sure it's the right interpretation. Aeron became a fool and a sot, a sinner as he describes himself and eventually imprisoned in the cells at Casterly Rock.

There is a suggestion that Euron did something to Aeron that frightened the bejeezus out of him so that he became a fanatic of the drowned god and this gives him protection from Euron. He says "I have seen the storm, and it's name is Euron Crow's Eye." I'm not sure if Euron attempted to open Aeron's mind and remove the veil from his eyes in the same way that he offers to do so with Victarion.

I wonder if Euron has skinchanging abilities and has attempted to enter Aeron's mind. In DwD, Varamyr describes the beasts fighting his attempts to approriate their bodies and Thistle screaming as he enters her body, twisting, violently shrieking. If Euron did the same thing, it would certainly be a violation.

And I wonder if Euron is wholly Euron all of the time.

"The Crow's Eye stopped atop the steps, at the doors of the Grey King's Hall, and turned his smiling eye upon the captains and the the kings, but Aeron could feel his other eye as well, the one that he kept hidden."

.

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Isn't that what Jon and Ygritte were in? It seemed to me that was most likely just one of the caves the COTF used...but now that I think of it, isn't that why some of you are mentioning Grendels children are hungry? As in the COTF are actually the ones who would attack anybody who made it to far down their tunnels?

I Think that those tunnels were made by Firewyrms. As of yet we have had no other reason to have heard about them in-story, and there has too be. The reason we heard about Unicorns was so when that Shaggy dog was hunting one, we know where Rickon and Osha had gone.

As to WF bringing the cold, The pipes that sent the hot water around WF were broken, and the ground froze that water to the ground. IMO the very life blood of WF that keep the cold out, is now keeping the cold in. Some kind of symbol for WF w/o a Stark, a frozen waste land.

@Black Crow

I agree the Craster's wife not only had no reason to lie, Craster had no reason to lie to them. He didn't let anybody near them, so they where unlikely to tell anyone and they were already afraid of him.

I have made the same arguement about the web finger Lord of the Sisters, telling Davos about Ned and the fisherman's daughter. There was no reason to even give a lie.

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Was it Euron who came into his room at night or Urri?

Feast for Crows - The Prophet

The sound came softly, the scream of a rusted hinge "Urri," he muttered and woke, fearful. There is no door here, no hinge, no Urri.

He had a terrible guilt over Urri losing half his hand playing the finger game together. It's after Urri's death that Balon returns with Euron and Victarion. Aeron describes himself as the weakest of the brothers and despised and ridiculed by Balon, whom he admires for all his iron born virtues. Now he drowns little boys and gives them the kiss of life. I'm not sure what this says about Aeron. He says it's better to be despised by Balon than loved by Euron. It leads to all kinds of speculation about Euron and Aeron. But I'm not sure it's the right interpretation. Aeron became a fool and a sot, a sinner as he describes himself and eventually imprisoned in the cells at Casterly Rock.

There is a suggestion that Euron did something to Aeron that frightened the bejeezus out of him so that he became a fanatic of the drowned god and this gives him protection from Euron. He says "I have seen the storm, and it's name is Euron Crow's Eye." I'm not sure if Euron attempted to open Aeron's mind and remove the veil from his eyes in the same way that he offers to do so with Victarion.

I wonder if Euron has skinchanging abilities and has attempted to enter Aeron's mind. In DwD, Varamyr describes the beasts fighting his attempts to approriate their bodies and Thistle screaming as he enters her body, twisting, violently shrieking. If Euron did the same thing, it would certainly be a violation.

And I wonder if Euron is wholly Euron all of the time.

"The Crow's Eye stopped atop the steps, at the doors of the Grey King's Hall, and turned his smiling eye upon the captains and the the kings, but Aeron could feel his other eye as well, the one that he kept hidden."

.

Ive never heard this before, but i like it alot :)

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I Think that those tunnels were made by Firewyrms. As of yet we have had no other reason to have heard about them in-story, and there has too be. The reason we heard about Unicorns was so when that Shaggy dog was hunting one, we know where Rickon and Osha had gone.

As to WF bringing the cold, The pipes that sent the hot water around WF were broken, and the ground froze that water to the ground. IMO the very life blood of WF that keep the cold out, is now keeping the cold in. Some kind of symbol for WF w/o a Stark, a frozen waste land.

@Black Crow

I agree the Craster's wife not only had no reason to lie, Craster had no reason to lie to them. He didn't let anybody near them, so they where unlikely to tell anyone and they were already afraid of him.

I have made the same arguement about the web finger Lord of the Sisters, telling Davos about Ned and the fisherman's daughter. There was no reason to even give a lie.

Is the curse on the Andals cast by an Old Stark the curse of the Wights? Makes sense to me. Andals are invading, he casts a spell that will release the Wights if they are ever deposed again. Maybe something they learned to do from the COTF after the initial long night ended. It could be backed up by the Theories of interbreeding between the Starks and the COTF and how they hold the same gods, and have the same abilities (skinchanging, greenseeing, etc)

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