Fill in the Gaping Plot Hole

[Cas Stark]

Good point about Littlefinger. Yes, why would Tyrion who knows it was LF who got the whole ball rolling in the Stark/Lannister feud stand by and do nothing while LF is given Harrenhall and then the Vale....and all he would have to do is tell his father or Varys or just have Bronn slit his throat and be done with it....

[TheBastardofBluegrass]

Ok, here is my biggest gripe. Concerning Dany's arc. Dany is the first Targ in centuries to have dragons, and has every right and instinct to go and take her birthright with "Fire and Blood." Well, except for the fact she's spent 5+ books fiddling around with slaves in Gods-forsaken hell holes. Mother of dragons, mother of slaves, mother of boring ass chapters. Sorry. I just can't believe someone could really WANT to spend THIS much time freeing slaves and smelling shit.

[TheBastardofBluegrass]

I guess that was more of a rant, less of a question considering plot holes, sorry bros.

[Lord of Dragonstone]

Something that's bugged me is that the same 7 families have been in charge of their respective regions for hundreds of years at least(for the Tyrells, more for everyone else) despite dozens of bloody and brutal wars, but now there are so many houses that are bordering on extinction after essentially just one war.

Stannis is the only Baratheon, and he only has a daughter scarred by grey scale. Arryn only has Sweet Robin to carry on his line, and it's far from a given he'll be able to procreate(even if he lives long enough to do so). The Blackfish isn't likely to have children, and Edmure would probably be dead if the Frey's didn't need him around. Bran isn't likely to have children, and Rickon is hiding out on Cannibal island, but they might just as easily have been killed by Theon.

So 4 houses very close to being completely wiped out during just one war, but during the hundreds of years prior there's been virtually no change in the ruling families.

[Gneisenau]

To suggest that Robert Baratheon bankrupted the realm through excessive partying is like saying the USA's debt is from the presidents partying each month.

[RumHam]

Something that's bugged me is that the same 7 families have been in charge of their respective regions for hundreds of years at least(for the Tyrells, more for everyone else) despite dozens of bloody and brutal wars, but now there are so many houses that are bordering on extinction after essentially just one war.

Stannis is the only Baratheon, and he only has a daughter scarred by grey scale. Arryn only has Sweet Robin to carry on his line, and it's far from a given he'll be able to procreate(even if he lives long enough to do so). The Blackfish isn't likely to have children, and Edmure would probably be dead if the Frey's didn't need him around. Bran isn't likely to have children, and Rickon is hiding out on Cannibal island, but they might just as easily have been killed by Theon.

So 4 houses very close to being completely wiped out during just one war, but during the hundreds of years prior there's been virtually no change in the ruling families.

It's not just the Tyrells who have only ruled their regions since the Targaryen Conquest. The Tully, Greyjoy, and Baratheon families also only started ruling three-hundredish years ago. Also sometimes the name is carried on by someone who was a more distant relation then you might expect. Like if Harry the Heir were to become lord of the Vale he would take the Arryn name. There's also that story about the Stark line almost ending until it was continued by a half-wildling bastard.

[TheCasualObserver]

There's absolutely no reason why Tyrion wouldn't act against LF during his tenure as Hand. The excuse Martin gives is that he's "armored in gold" but I don't buy that because of what Tyrion says when LF offers to broker the Joff/Marg and needs money and gifts to do it:

"Take what you need. Stannis will take it all anyway." In a city under threat of siege money becomes increasingly unimportant compared to weapons and food. Tyrion was a somewhat milder person during AGOT and COK to be sure, but he still showed his teeth to anyone who threatened him and LF definitely fits that bill. Not telling his father anything about it is also counter intuitive and stupid from a character who is otherwise shown to be decisive and intelligent.

I've seen people decry some authors because they give their heroes plot armor - GRRM does the same to his villains. But whilst Littlefinger is one of the best protected, he's not top of the list, because at least his survival is predicated upon his abilities as a schemer, however improbable they may be.

No, the absolute luckiest SOB in the entire series is none other than Ramsay Snow, later Bolton.

It's lucky for the son of a humble miller's wife to have a nobles blood.

It's exceptionally lucky for that noble's trueborn son to decide he wants a brother and go out and find his baseborn half sibling and offer him the hand of friendship.

It almost beggars belief that the baseborn boy would kill his trueborn brother and not be punished for it because his father thinks he won't live long enough to see another son to adulthood - "boy lords are the bane of their houses"

It's staggering that said baseborn boy, already in a precarious position as a known kinslayer, would then allow himself to become infamous for the rape, torture and skinning of women on his father's lands.

It's ridiculous that said skinner would then contrive to abduct, forcibly wed, rape and intentionally starve to death a noblewoman with the intent to take her lands for himself, still without getting caught.

It's taking the piss to suggest that he could then survive the party of men sent to kill him by dressing as his servant who dies in his place. Even though said servant was also guilty of rape and murder, he is not executed but taken back to the center of the North's government.

It's staggeringly lucky that said center of government would then be overthrown by a hostile force who would free him and allow him to serve them.

It's just stupid to suggest that the hostile force would release our lucky hero with a bag of silver in the hope he could bring aid.

It's moronic to suggest that he could then bring his father's garrison to a battle field and outwit the same dumb castellan he tricked into thinking he was a servant, winning a victory against a force nearly four times larger than his own.

It's mind boggling that our hero would promptly kill all the hostile force he had come help and butcher the household of his usual overlords.

At this point, Ramsay has made an enemy of both the forces nominally in control of the North. Yet fate (GRRM) contrives to wipe out the Starks before they can take vengeance and kill Balon Greyjoy, thereby ending any real Ironborn threat to the North. Despite all his crimes, lack of political nous and the hatred of almost the entire North, Ramsay has his bastardy removed, Lordship of Hornwood confirmed, is given the last Stark (not really) as a bride, becomes Lord of Winterfell and still stands to inherit the Dreadfort as well. All from a man who started life as an uneducated, low born peasant. He's the biggest social climber in the series by a wide margin. LF's got nothing on Ramsay f**king Snow.

I'm calling BS Mr Martin!

[Aderyn the Sly]

Something that's bugged me is that the same 7 families have been in charge of their respective regions for hundreds of years at least(for the Tyrells, more for everyone else) despite dozens of bloody and brutal wars, but now there are so many houses that are bordering on extinction after essentially just one war.

Stannis is the only Baratheon, and he only has a daughter scarred by grey scale. Arryn only has Sweet Robin to carry on his line, and it's far from a given he'll be able to procreate(even if he lives long enough to do so). The Blackfish isn't likely to have children, and Edmure would probably be dead if the Frey's didn't need him around. Bran isn't likely to have children, and Rickon is hiding out on Cannibal island, but they might just as easily have been killed by Theon.

So 4 houses very close to being completely wiped out during just one war, but during the hundreds of years prior there's been virtually no change in the ruling families.

I don't think this is a fair representation. And a few things: some were wiped out in the male line and were only able to continue in the female line where a Stark, for example, would take his mother's last name over his fathers to continue the house. Or a minor branch that had another name would take the name of the great house to continue it (there was an example in the text but I cannot remember at the moment) Another would be that a lot more houses are recent than you think: Baratheon, Highgarden, Tully, Greyjoy, and a few minor houses including the Whents are fairly recent (since the conquest) and some houses like the Lannisters are older than those above but are still new in the grand scheme of things. And realistically the Houses are not as close to extinction as you think. The Arryn line for example, Harry the Heir could take the name Arryn if he inherits by right through his mother's line instead of his current house name. The Baratheons also possibly have descendents of Harbert that might have a different family name if he himself only had daughters that could continue the house as well and it's rumored that House Bolling and Wensington are branches as well. That's how houses survive. It isn't always linear, but the name has power so minor or cadet branches will continue using it.

[A Man Has Said]

I've always been kind of bothered about how Littlefinger's "puppets" always act exactly like he expects them to. This when the whole theme of his existence is that you can never trust anyone.

Examples here are the Kettleblacks, Dontos, everyone involved in the Joffrey poisoning scheme, Lyn Corbray and the various other people he has bribed and manipulated to serve his plots.

The reality is that he operates in such a high risk game, against players with a degree of absolute power that he lacks due to him not being the Lord of a Great House, that all it would take is for one of these puppets to turn cloak on him for any one of the Lannisters, Tyrells, Royces or whoever else he has schemed with or against to just decide to end him.

And they could do it without any consequences whatsoever. A Great Lord could walk up to Littlefinger in front of the entire royal court and slit his throat and likely face no consequences whatsoever.

This is one area where I felt that the show demonstrated more realism than the books. That scene where Cersei has Littlefinger grabbed by her guards in broad daylight and have them at the point of cutting his throat at a whim. That demonstrated the massive gulf in power between the Great Nobles and a schemer like Littlefinger.

And considering that he has hundreds of threads in his plots, with scores of puppets that could at any time decide to ditch him for a more powerful benefactor, or get caught out due to being a drunkard (Dontos), or a self serving asshole (the Kettleblacks).

All it takes is a whispered word from one of them, and Littlefinger is toast.

So in short, I find Littlefinger unrealistic, and his skill and intelligence is vastly inflated by Martin's liberal doses of "schemer's plot armor".

There's something missing in the whole Tyrion/Littlefinger plotline.

I haven't read all the books for a while now, but I'm convinced that Tyrion figures out that Littlefinger is the one that lied to Catelyn about the dagger, thus framing Tyrion. And I'm pretty sure that he figures this out fairly early on, likely during his conversations with Catelyn in the Vale.

Yet he seems to forget all about this little bit of crucial information once he gets to King's Landing.

Question: What would happen to Tyrion - the son of a Great Lord - if he walked up to Littlefinger - a low birth Treasurer - and just stabbed him in the chest?

I reckon pretty much nothing. Maybe a scolding from his father. That's it.

And yet, Tyrion does NOTHING with the knowledge that Littlefinger tried to have him falsely imprisoned and potentially killed?

It always struck me as a fact conveniently ignored because the plot needed it to go away.

:agree:

Consider too that Tyrion had Pycelle arrested and tortured without consequence (except for the fact that Pycelle testified against him at his trial) and Pycelle was basically on the Lannister payroll, one of Tywin's and Cersei's key players. If he was willing to do that, Tyrion should have had no problem whatsoever taking Littlefinger out of the game.

You're absolutely right, Northman. Littlefinger wears plot armour that even Sir Robert Strong couldn't carry.

[Lazy Lion]

The Hound loses an ear in the bar-brawl after having lost an ear, according to Tyrion, in the battle for King's Landing.

The Hound loses an ear in the bar-brawl.

Only his hound-shaped helm lost an ear at King's Landing.

[Jojen Weed]

It's like you guys read my mind. The TWO biggest plot holes were these two for me. In the books, arrows flying up to the top for sure. Then you watch the show, there's NO WAY even a ballista aimed upwards could get a projectile up there.

With the Littlefinger thing: 100% spot on. This guy is walking on thin ice. He has so many players playing for him that I'm quite surprised one of them didn't just say, "EFF IT!" I think the same goes with Varys. What's stopping Cersei, Tyrion, or any of the 1,000s of the Iron Throne contenders to say, "Hey, little bird, I'll give you 100 times more what Varys pays you to snitch. AND I'll pay for your travel to *insert safe place*." I mean, c'mon, did no one think of that?!

Easy, they think they need Littlefinger and Varys. I think Varys has explained many times that he "buys his life anew each day" or something like that. As soon as Tyrion, Cersei, Joffrey, etc... realize they don't need them anymore they are dead. But Littlefinger and Varys are smart enough to keep them thinking that they can't live without them. I mean, what would happen if they kill Littlefinger? who is going to be master of coin? who is going to manage the realm's finances as well as Littlefinger? Who is going to provide information better than Varys? Power recides where men believe it resides.

[Tywin Manderly]

Sansa's escape.

No one seems to be able to take a single breath in the Red Keep without Varys knowing about it, but Littlefinger can plan, prepare and execute such uneasy operation.

[TheCasualObserver]

Sansa's escape.

No one seems to be able to take a single breath in the Red Keep without Varys knowing about it, but Littlefinger can plan, prepare and execute such uneasy operation.

Ah, but you're forgetting that Sansa's escape was organised in the godswood where Varys' little birds can't hide and spy. What are they going to do, clamber up the tree trunks and hide in the branches?

Oh - that's exactly what they could have done...

[MachoGrande]

Maybe we should keep the thread about actual Plot Holes? Ramsay not being dead isn't a plot hole, neither is Rodrik leaving WF weakly held or Varys still being alive.

There's absolutely no reason why Tyrion wouldn't act against LF during his tenure as Hand. The excuse Martin gives is that he's "armored in gold" but I don't buy that because of what Tyrion says when LF offers to broker the Joff/Marg and needs money and gifts to do it:

"Take what you need. Stannis will take it all anyway." In a city under threat of siege money becomes increasingly unimportant compared to weapons and food. Tyrion was a somewhat milder person during AGOT and COK to be sure, but he still showed his teeth to anyone who threatened him and LF definitely fits that bill. Not telling his father anything about it is also counter intuitive and stupid from a character who is otherwise shown to be decisive and intelligent.

So what, should Tyrion kill the most competent Master of Coin ever and risk bringing down most of the city's officials (which belong to him) while fighting in a losing war? All this quote says is that the Crown's gold will be useless once Stannis stands before their gates and the city may be lost anyway if the fail to broker this pact. And what would they do if they should win the war? Surely one needs to rebuild and buy food.

So yeah, I think it would be stupid of Tyrion to outright kill him under these circumstances. Instead he instantly mistrusts Littlefinger, makes some investigations about him and wants to see what he's up to. Littlefinger poses no threat to him at that moment and he has much more important matter to settle after all. That's also in line with Tyrion "enjoying the Game" and wanting to outwitt his rivals. Tywin isn't like that, so maybe he would have instantly killed LF - but Tyrion wants to do things his way.

[TheCasualObserver]

Maybe we should keep the thread about actual Plot Holes? Ramsay not being dead isn't a plot hole, neither is Rodrik leaving WF weakly held or Varys still being alive.

So what, should Tyrion kill the most competent Master of Coin ever and risk bringing down most of the city's officials (which belong to him) while fighting in a losing war? All this quote says is that the Crown's gold will be useless once Stannis stands before their gates and the city may be lost anyway if the fail to broker this pact. And what would they do if they should win the war? Surely one needs to rebuild and buy food.

So yeah, I think it would be stupid of Tyrion to outright kill him under these circumstances. Instead he instantly mistrusts Littlefinger, makes some investigations about him and wants to see what he's up to. Littlefinger poses no threat to him at that moment and he has much more important matter to settle after all. That's also in line with Tyrion "enjoying the Game" and wanting to outwitt his rivals. Tywin isn't like that, so maybe he would have instantly killed LF - but Tyrion wants to do things his way.

"What would they do if they should win the war?" Well they did win the war and we saw what happened - Littlefinger abruptly left and the task went to Tyrion. He did find the job hard but he didn't completely beggar the realm, suggesting that another competent man could still keep things going in the event of LF's unfortunate death.

My point is that the entire economy of King's Landing isn't dependent on Littlefinger's presence, it simply benefits from it. I don't believe that Tyrion would ignore a scheme which almost got him killed simply to avoid economic hassle at a time when gold meant less and less anyway. Not telling his father about Littlefinger's treachery doesn't make sense no matter which angle you look at it from: if Tyrion was determined to "do things his way" and this was the reasoning behind him not telling his father, then you would think he'd have the conviction to actually do something - but he doesn't. Conversely, if Tyrion was unconcerned by LF simply because he was master of coin and the halfman felt he had bigger fish to fry then there is no reason why he wouldn't tell his father about the knife, either on the green fork or after the Battle of Blackwater bay. Again, he doesn't, and allows LF to be greatly rewarded - removed from his sphere of influence and therefore away from any possible recriminations - without a word about the knife or the man's obvious role in bringing Wolf ad Lion into conflict.

[Cas Stark]

Yep. I give credit to this site for showing me a plot hole I never noticed before. But, since his father had already urged him to have either LF or Varys killed at the first hint of treason.....at the very least...Tyrion would have done something with the info he now has over LF...that it was LF who framed him for Bran's fall...rather than sit on it, doing nothing while LF reaps massive rewards of huge wealth and power, and Tyrion is getting nothing but grief. Tywin would have probably been happy to execute LF, why not?

[A Man Has Said]

Another big plot hole, or something totally inexplicable for me, is the fact that Benjen joined the Night's Watch. Why?

It's an utter betrayal of the Stark family. It is known that Rickard Stark had no siblings, or even cousins. The family was severely pruned by a couple of rebellions around the time of the Dunk and Egg stories (which we'll know more about when the next D&E tale is published.)

Around 213AL, House Stark faced a difficult succession. Several Lords of Winterfell had perished fighting wars in the North against rebellious Skagosi, the wildling king Raymun Redbeard and other threats, leaving Beron Stark as the lord of the house. As he too lay slowly succumbing to wounds he received fighting Dagon Greyjoy and his ironborn, his wife and four other recent Stark widows struggled over who would succeed him. There were a number of potential heirs, with some ten Stark children about.

I don't know what happened to those ten children. Maybe they were mostly female, or gay or something. Anyway, they don't show up on the family tree by 297 AD when the story starts.

So Rickard's children; Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen, are ALL THAT'S LEFT of the Stark line. They need to start getting married and pumping out children if the family is to stay strong and forge alliances through marriage. Then Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna get killed, making a crisis situation.

So it's a REALLY bad idea for Brandon to have turned his back on that family obligation and taken a vow never to have children or hold lands. Really bad.

[Cas Stark]

I have hope that this isn't a plot hole but that Benjen taking the black is going to be explained eventually, that there was something that happened that caused him to feel his only honorable course of action was to join the NW...otherwise, yes, I agree, it would be insane with no freaking Stark uncles and thus no Stark cousins, the father dead, the eldest son dead, daughter dead, the entire 6000 year legacy resting on Ned and Cat's shoulders, Benjen would never have been allowed NOT to marry and have more Stark back ups.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Maybe we should keep the thread about actual Plot Holes? Ramsay not being dead isn't a plot hole, neither is Rodrik leaving WF weakly held or Varys still being alive.

So what, should Tyrion kill the most competent Master of Coin ever and risk bringing down most of the city's officials (which belong to him) while fighting in a losing war? All this quote says is that the Crown's gold will be useless once Stannis stands before their gates and the city may be lost anyway if the fail to broker this pact. And what would they do if they should win the war? Surely one needs to rebuild and buy food.

So yeah, I think it would be stupid of Tyrion to outright kill him under these circumstances. Instead he instantly mistrusts Littlefinger, makes some investigations about him and wants to see what he's up to. Littlefinger poses no threat to him at that moment and he has much more important matter to settle after all. That's also in line with Tyrion "enjoying the Game" and wanting to outwitt his rivals. Tywin isn't like that, so maybe he would have instantly killed LF - but Tyrion wants to do things his way.

Littlefinger conspires to have Tyrion captured and probably killed. His lies also instigate the Lannister and Stark conflict that pose a direct threat to himself and his house. Jaime is Robb Stark's captive. Yeah, he poses no threat. Tyrion is a smart man, he knows LF doesn't perform magic. I think killing the man who tried to have you killed and brought about a war that could wipe out your house is considered posing a threat.

Nevermind the fact that Tywin orders him to kill any conspirators that might be causing the destabilization of the throne.

[Light a wight tonight]

Q: how does a half starved illiterate mute (Wex Pyke) walk into White Harbor and not only gets audience with Wyman Manderly but explains and convinces him that he's Theon's squire and knows the truth about what happened in Winterfell?

A: because people are generally loving and trusting of the iron born especially sea folk

That or the whole thing was made up by Manderly to fool Davos, and by extension Stannis. The entire Wex story is illogical. An Ironborn wouldn't have been able to follow a Spearwife and a dire wolf halfway across the North undetected.