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Vin Sidious

The White Walkers as Good Guys?

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What are the odds that GRRM flips the script for the end-game: Suppose the White Walkers turn out to be the Westerosi equivalent of displaced, supernatural Native Americans who were pushed to the frozen North by invading foreigners? They protect what lands remain to them, beyond the wall, fiercely and violently, but have as yet made no real move to attack the Wall or the lands south of it. Oh sure, there are STORIES about them doing so, but those are thousands of years old and of dubious accuracy. Besides, don't they say that history is written by the winners? Maybe the Long Night was really the process of the First Men taking the continent from the WWs and driving them North. Hell, maybe the WWs BUILT the damn Wall and Bran the Builder just took credit.

Suppose further that Dany goes all Mad King when she finally gets to Westeros, burning everything in her path and spraying fire and blood everywhere. Might we then get a resurrected (or never dead) Jon Snow leading an army of White Walkers and 1,000 years worth of dead Night's Watchmen against Dany's forces, in defense of all of Westeros?

While I wouldn't say this is *likely,* given GRRM's penchant for turning fantasy conventions on their head, it wouldn't surprise me at this point, either.

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What are the odds that GRRM flips the script for the end-game: Suppose the White Walkers turn out to be the Westerosi equivalent of displaced, supernatural Native Americans who were pushed to the frozen North by invading foreigners? They protect what lands remain to them, beyond the wall, fiercely and violently, but have as yet made no real move to attack the Wall or the lands south of it. Oh sure, there are STORIES about them doing so, but those are thousands of years old and of dubious accuracy. Besides, don't they say that history is written by the winners? Maybe the Long Night was really the process of the First Men taking the continent from the WWs and driving them North. Hell, maybe the WWs BUILT the damn Wall and Bran the Builder just took credit.

Suppose further that Dany goes all Mad King when she finally gets to Westeros, burning everything in her path and spraying fire and blood everywhere. Might we then get a resurrected (or never dead) Jon Snow leading an army of White Walkers and 1,000 years worth of dead Night's Watchmen against Dany's forces, in defense of all of Westeros?

While I wouldn't say this is *likely,* given GRRM's penchant for turning fantasy conventions on their head, it wouldn't surprise me at this point, either.

I think you may be at least half right on this. Not that the WW are the "good guys", but that there is a side to their story that we don't yet know.

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If the night kings's story is to be believed, and he did marry a women who was one of the Others, then we can safely assume that they are not just vicious killers and have some humanity. Them being "Good" is more debatable. What's up with their sacrifices? I suppose the same could be said from those who worship the lord of light though.

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If the night kings's story is to be believed, and he did marry a women who was one of the Others, then we can safely assume that they are not just vicious killers and have some humanity. Them being "Good" is more debatable. What's up with their sacrifices? I suppose the same could be said from those who worship the lord of light though.

Or the old gods!

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I think it's pretty clear that the WWs arnt just mindless evil. But that the war was more complicated then the stories tell. The fact that the Fist existed indicated that humans and WWs agreed to a boundary (as opposed to humans destroying the evil enemy and living happily ever after.)

I've also been convinced that Joruman was a WW and the nights queen was his daughter. The term king beyond the wall used to belong to the WWs. And shortly post war for dawn there was some communication between the WWs and the Starks.

Recently something happened that made the WWs push back into the DMZ. Definitely something more then 'evil awoke'

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I think the previous Night King had an affair with an other

They married. He declared himself King of Nightfort and ruled with his Blue Queen.

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If the night kings's story is to be believed, and he did marry a women who was one of the Others, then we can safely assume that they are not just vicious killers and have some humanity. Them being "Good" is more debatable. What's up with their sacrifices? I suppose the same could be said from those who worship the lord of light though.

Do you mean Craster's children? Do we actually know they kill them? They might raise them.

I think the story will be much better if the Others aren't evil, but I don't see them as being undoubtedly the good guys either. It'd be best if they have a sympathetic side but have lots of negative points too, like humans.

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Do you mean Craster's children? Do we actually know they kill them? They might raise them.

I suppose they might be raised and become an Other. I just can't figure out why only the sons.

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I suppose they might be raised and become an Other. I just can't figure out why only the sons.

I thought it was Craster who wanted to give up the sons, so he could marry all the daughters.

Could it even be that they are saving all the babies that Craster is trying to kill?

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Words can literally not describe how much I detest this theory. GRRM is a good writer, he wouldn't build up the Others as being the primary antagonists (to quote several characters, "The ancient enemy. The only enemy.") for five or six books, only to flip the entire thing on its head in the last book. It would be terrible writing.

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I thought it was Craster who wanted to give up the sons, so he could marry all the daughters.

Could it even be that they are saving all the babies that Craster is trying to kill?

I think Craster made some kind of deal with the Others, in that he'd have to give his sons to them. In return he'd be protected. I'm not sure. The night's king did the same thing if the stories are to be believed.

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Words can literally not describe how much I detest this theory. GRRM is a good writer, he wouldn't build up the Others as being the primary antagonists (to quote several characters, "The ancient enemy. The only enemy.") for five or six books, only to flip the entire thing on its head in the last book. It would be terrible writing.

:agree:

Thank you. People sympathize with Puddles way too much on this forum.

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Others won't turn out to be good guys, that's for sure, but I'm almost certain they won't be mindless evil creatures bent on destroying everything human. Their motives (and their whole culture) will probably be greatly expanded upon in the last two books.

In fact, GRRM stated we'll get to see Lands of Always Winter in Winds of Winter, likely meaning we'll get better acquainted with Others.

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Words can literally not describe how much I detest this theory. GRRM is a good writer, he wouldn't build up the Others as being the primary antagonists (to quote several characters, "The ancient enemy. The only enemy.") for five or six books, only to flip the entire thing on its head in the last book. It would be terrible writing.

I understand not liking it, but terrible writing? I just don't see it that way. Many stories make one believe one thing througout the tale and then at the last minute some preconceived notion that you took as undoubtedly true becomes false or more grey. Not only that, but you have the existence of Coldhands who now muddys the water...

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I can see us getting a glimpse of the Others society in the prologue of TWOW. I just don't see a POV character having the time and incentive to travel that far north, but someone at Hardhome or a travelling wildling may stumble across some Others and get a glimpse up close. Good or bad, they still have a side to the story.

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I think Craster made some kind of deal with the Others, in that he'd have to give his sons to them. In return he'd be protected. I'm not sure. The night's king did the same thing if the stories are to be believed.

That's what we're lead to believe, but I don't think we've seen any proof. Can Craster communicate with the Others? It could even be a misunderstanding.

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Words can literally not describe how much I detest this theory. GRRM is a good writer, he wouldn't build up the Others as being the primary antagonists (to quote several characters, "The ancient enemy. The only enemy.") for five or six books, only to flip the entire thing on its head in the last book. It would be terrible writing.

We see this pretty much totally opposite then. This series is clearly about realistic characters, about how "good" and "evil" are fairly redundant terms in real life, about how perspective can massively change things. For a series of brilliant surprise and political intrige to descend into obvious heros Danerys and Jon Snow saving the world from the evil people would be awful and totally betray the whole style we've had so far. It may appeal to fantasy fans, but not to the huge number of us who're attracted to the series precisely because it subverts standard fantasy.

There is no reason that any characters would know the nature of the Others, they haven't been around for millenia, before written records.

I still think the Others will be the primary antagonists to the Westerosi, but that doesn't mean they'll be evil.

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So that means Others can think and love. So they arent that bad.

It proves that they can think and fuck, and the AGoT prologue already implied fairly strongly that they can think with the tool use, fencing, the laughing and mocking of Ser Waymar. But marriage doesn't necessarily mean love, she might have just been a deep cover agent sent to break the Watch, that would tell us something else about their planning abilities. The thing about the Others is that most of what we know about them is open to differing interpretations, such as whether they were simply attacking the edges of Mance's horde because they were easy prey or whether they were deliberately driving the Wildlings South to use them as a hammer to break the Wall

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