The White Walkers as Good Guys?

[Vin Sidious]

Asoiaf as the story of Ragnarok? I like it! I don't buy it, but I like it.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

You can run through a "who's who" of historical figures who both thought and loved, but were nevertheless horrible.

I meant like they could be good if they want to if they can love.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

I think the whole point of the story is that BOTH ice and fire are "evil" if not in balance. Life as we know it - plants and animals cannot survive in a world made of ice, nor in a world made of fire. it is not so much a question of good and evil, just simply the forces cannot live in harmony

I do NOT think the story is ice versus fire but rather ice and fire versus life as we know it.

I expect Jon to fight both Dany AND the Others.

To some extent if this is the story of Ragnarok as I believe, then we will see attacks on Westeros from:

1. Ice Giants and the creatures from Hel (daughter of Loki),

2. fierce destructive earthquakes and Tsunamis brought on by the horn (Jorumen the giant snake , son of Loki)

3. Fenrir the fierce wolf (not sure who this is but I fear it is Rickon and the Skagosi

4. Sea monsters ie the Euron and the Ironborn

5. Loki Himself - this is either Theon or Little Finger

6. Fire demons - Suti ie Dany and her dragons.

Now 1, and 4 have already started and 2 and 6 clearly about to happen.

Because it is not quite clear which forces represents Fenrir and Loki there are some questions.

I think there will be two sides

Stannis (Thor) who will fight and deafeat the Ironborn but will die in the process

Jon (Heimdall) who will fight Loki (either LF or Theon)

BR (Odin) who will be killed by the Giant wolf (possibly Rickon)

Tyrion (Tyr) will fight the Hound (Sandor) perhaps as part of a Sansa led attack

??? Freyr will be destroyed by Dany ie the green and fertile lands

I expect Bran, and Gendry to survive. Not sure who else,

:bowdown:

[Beltway]

I have always been more afraid of Mel and her fire god more than the others

Im not saying the WW are nothing to worry about but I feel that the Fire God will be more trouble to everyone in the end.

[Timothy Quentin Cray]

The real plot twist would be if GRRM allows anyone to end the series as a 'good guy'.

[Othersrule]

The Others are evil from a human perspective, but I'm pretty sure that if we put ourselves in their shoes, we'd realize that humanity can be/ is just as 'evil' as the Others. The Others kill people: men, women and children without any thought, and that is abominable and atrocious. However, most humans kill and eat animals, including their young and unborn, without a second thought. The Others are supposedly fighting and slaughtering people for selfish gain. Do humans do any differently? We use animal skin for clothing and material, we have subjugated and forcefully domesticated many species solely for our own benefit, pleasure and entertainment. We even commit atrocities against each other.

Come to think of it, I'm sure that if we compared humans and the Others objectively, we'd see that people are worse, IMO. It is simply all about perspective.

I agree. But that doesn't mean that GRRM is trying say all things all morally equivalent. He is trying to make us think. If you want black/white, right/wrong read Chronicles of Narnia. People are never all good or all evil. It's a spectrum. Tyrion tries to protect Sansa, yet raped Tysha. Etc. etc. The Others are not human anymore than a bear is a man. More intelligent, with feelings, but fundamentally "other."

[ophie]

Plus, humanity is clearly not "good" in these books, so that dynamic wouldn't fit the story.

This is the single most useful point I've ever seen in explaining how it's not a good v. evil story. It's no use arguing about evil if we haven't even found a 'good.' Just because they're being set as the antagonists doesn't mean that the WW are evil.

[Morienthar]

They probably aren't Ice Balrogs/Ice Orcs and there's probably no Melkor,I'll give you that much.

But I seriously doubt,what ever they were once they have been,Changed far too much to be anything but the adversary in the series.

[Beorn Snow]

I wonder sometimes if Craster is all that wrong.

The northmen have stopped bloodsacrifices and even the wildlings for the most part. Craster seemed to be doing okay despite being surrounded by foes. Maybe the Others can be appeased with sacrifices, but I doubt they are "good guys." (There is no good guy in asoiaf apart from Davos). There is necessary evil and unnecessary evil, with necessary evil passing for some kind of good.

Maybe the others just want the first men to respect their part of the bargain made at the end of the long night.

[Melpomene]

Words can literally not describe how much I detest this theory. GRRM is a good writer, he wouldn't build up the Others as being the primary antagonists (to quote several characters, "The ancient enemy. The only enemy.") for five or six books, only to flip the entire thing on its head in the last book. It would be terrible writing.

I agree.

I would actually would find the whole thing incredibly predictable. It's not a plot twist at all. That sort if storyline has been done many times - one group of people fearing/hating/inferiorizing on another culture, only it turns out that said culture is sophiscated, smart and good, often discovered by one or two protaganists who then try to convince the rest otherwise. I've said this a million times already, but I tend to call it the Pocahontas effect, or however.

We already had this happen once, technically - Where Jon infiltrates the Wildings (a culture far off, not known as well, seen as sort of lowly) then finds out how they really are, realizes we can learn from them or help them, falls in like with one of them, respects one of their leaders who is actually composed and wise, and so forth.

It would also be very anticlimactic. We have spent many books building up on The Other's (And for some readers, many many years) their eerieness, their cause for fear, their very dark, rich and bloody history, killing wildlings suddenly, the whole reason why that Wall was built in the first place and half the book surrounding it, the whole attempt for everyone at the North to warn eveyone else in the South (From Osha to Jon)...only to have it all go *poof* in an instant, whoops, no, they are wittle puppy dogs all along! Giving us a all pretty little lesson on the lack of true "Goodness" or the general greyness of the humans themselves. It wouldn't be creative, it would feel more like a waste of time, or a big middle finger to the readers.

If they turn out to be this good people with a tragic past and become some sort of true heroes, I would be disapointed. They don't have to be mindless super evil villians either, but I really don't want this to happen.

I'll be content with complexity - they aren't exactly blindly evil, but they aren't exactly angels either. I do want them to keep people a reason to fear them, I still want them to creep me out. I want their eerieness to remain.They can obviously be intelligent, have comprehension, but also have potential to be true threat to the realm, and have just cause for everyone to stop finicking over a pointy throne and start looking towards the north. I want them to have a very complex cruelty. It would be more intense if they had a sense of the bad that makes Ramsay's ways look like a newbie, that make other in other story creatures like Orcs like jokes or Child's play. And I am sure that a couple of them, here and there, break away from their community in thought and actually be decently good, or at least be good to eachother, since they are complex and are thinkers as said, but otherwise altogether they are more dark than light.

Obviously humans are not perfect, we get that aready, it has been emphasized already. At this point it is nothing new, it's not necessarily special or symbolic anymore. But it doesn't mean the good ones left can't band together and fight against a bigger foe once everyone realizes there is one. Not all humans in ASOIAF are terrible. And if/once The Others finally invade in some way, the ones who paid attention will be the ones to rise above it in some way, while the ones who didn't who likely fall. That in itself is probably the "lesson" or the theme that could be conveyed. We as humans are not each other's enemies. It will still be a hard, fustrating and difficult fight, with likely other forced compromises or negoitations, but in the end it will lead to the bittersweet ending of triumphed, realization and loss, a bigger picture of life and importance, the value of certain things and devalue of other things that were wasted time fighting over and dying over. I know this in itself can risk being a cliche, but if written well, with its own sets of twists, it can work.

Afterall, the COTF fought against them, and to have concern towards them. In regards to the marriage between the Night's King and his Other Wife, there were autrocities that were committed. Even if they were "In Love", it eventually led to his own cruelty and downfall, so there must have been something very off with his spouse. Who knows if she had true affection for him, or realized she could control him from the inside and aid in demise through manipulation or a deeper magical method.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I agree.

I would actually would find the whole thing incredibly predictable. It's not a plot twist at all. That sort if storyline has been done many times - one group of people fearing/hating/inferiorizing on another culture, only it turns out that said culture is sophiscated, smart and good, often discovered by one or two protaganists who then try to convince the rest otherwise. I've said this a million times already, but I tend to call it the Pocahontas effect, or however.

We already had this happen once, technically - Where Jon infiltrates the Wildings (a culture far off, not known as well, seen as sort of lowly) then finds out how they really are, realizes we can learn from them or help them, falls in like with one of them, respects one of their leaders who is actually composed and wise, and so forth.

It would also be very anticlimactic. We have spent many books building up on The Other's (And for some readers, many many years) their eerieness, their cause for fear, their very dark, rich and bloody history, killing wildlings suddenly, the whole reason why that Wall was built in the first place and half the book surrounding it, the whole attempt for everyone at the North to warn eveyone else in the South (From Osha to Jon)...only to have it all go *poof* in an instant, whoops, no, they are wittle puppy dogs all along! Giving us a all pretty little lesson on the lack of true "Goodness" or the general greyness of the humans themselves. It wouldn't be creative, it would feel more like a waste of time, or a big middle finger to the readers.

If they turn out to be this good people with a tragic past and become some sort of true heroes, I would be disapointed. They don't have to be mindless super evil villians either, but I really don't want this to happen.

I'll be content with complexity - they aren't exactly blindly evil, but they aren't exactly angels either. I do want them to keep people a reason to fear them, I still want them to creep me out. I want their eerieness to remain.They can obviously be intelligent, have comprehension, but also have potential to be true threat to the realm, and have just cause for everyone to stop finicking over a pointy throne and start looking towards the north. I want them to have a very complex cruelty. It would be more intense if they had a sense of the bad that makes Ramsay's ways look like a newbie, that make other in other story creatures like Orcs like jokes or Child's play. And I am sure that a couple of them, here and there, break away from their community in thought and actually be decently good, or at least be good to eachother, since they are complex and are thinkers as said, but otherwise altogether they are more dark than light.

Obviously humans are not perfect, we get that aready, it has been emphasized already. At this point it is nothing new, it's not necessarily special or symbolic anymore. But it doesn't mean the good ones left can't band together and fight against a bigger foe once everyone realizes there is one. Not all humans in ASOIAF are terrible. And if/once The Others finally invade in some way, the ones who paid attention will be the ones to rise above it in some way, while the ones who didn't who likely fall. That in itself is probably the "lesson" or the theme that could be conveyed. We as humans are not each other's enemies. It will still be a hard, fustrating and difficult fight, with likely other forced compromises or negoitations, but in the end it will lead to the bittersweet ending of triumphed, realization and loss, a bigger picture of life and importance, the value of certain things and devalue of other things that were wasted time fighting over and dying over. I know this in itself can risk being a cliche, but if written well, with its own sets of twists, it can work.

Afterall, the COTF fought against them, and to have concern towards them. In regards to the marriage between the Night's King and his Other Wife, there were autrocities that were committed. Even if they were "In Love", it eventually led to his own cruelty and downfall, so there must have been something very off with his spouse. Who knows if she had true affection for him, or realized she could control him from the inside and aid in demise through manipulation or a deeper magical method.

Not thst they are good, but they have a purpose for what they are doing even though its bad.

[Jasta11]

I would be fine with the White Walkers not being mindless evil orcs and having their reasons for the whole ressurect-dead-and-attack-humies act. Complexity is the name of the game in this story. But I don't want GRRM to pull a Mass Effect 3 and make the Great Other an all-knowing good guy who imposes his existence on the plot in the very last chapter, and the Others themselves glorified attack drones.

But, personally, they crossed the line into villainy when they ressurected that bear. Humans are one thing, but honestly, only evil people would ever take a bear, kill it, enlarge it AND make it invincible. Only a truly devious mind would be capable of such an act.

[TheBastardofBluegrass]

The real plot twist would be if GRRM allows anyone to end the series as a 'good guy'.

This. I agree tenfold

[Light a wight tonight]

The winner writes the history book. If the Others win history will paint them as the good guys.

[kephv]

I definitely don't think they're evil but good would be stretching it. They're probably like any other faction in this story, only with magic and probably some weird hippy side aims to go with their motives for domination.

[TheMankey]

I know this forum is old at this point but.. ive been doing some thinking. My friend brought up a theory regarding the god of fire vs. the god of ice. And i have come up with a theory.. The god of fire and ice have been at war since the beginning of time right? Long before man. What if the "Good" guy is this 'Other' that sending the white walkers to fight the followers of fire.

In my theory.. These gods created creatures of magic.. where as man, who can still be born with gifts.. are but a creature created by the conflict itself. a Balance between fire and ice. Now in this case... What if Winter isn't actually suppose to be a time of snow but fire? And the reason its so cold is to protect humanity and the rest from this season of fire? That this Other "embraces" humanity during this time that humans only see as a time of death.. where as.. The thought goes.. you will likely die from the cold.. but it better then to be consumed to extrication by fire?

The Ice wall.. for one is a good example that may have been misunderstood for its purpose. How does a wall made of ice.. keep out the white walkers? Creatures of ice. Now what is it purpose? well.. what if it isn't suppose to keep the creatures (not the wild lings) of ice out of westeros.. But to keep the people of out of the land of the Other. OR perhaps it was a fortification against the creatures of fire?

Unlike the land of the North, nobody lives very long in the Lord of fire realm. There was only brief mentions of it.. which only strengthens my theory that there are "Fire walkers?" or creatures of fire. The White Walkers are known in legends because there were survivors.. where as there is no mention of creature of fire.. or demons(they exists.. cause the spiders balls where sacrificed to them at one point) because unlike the white walkers.. who aren't necessary trying to kill humanity but going after the god of fire followers.. who are the one actually killing or consuming everything. Since humanity has only seen winter as "cold" is because the 'Other' succeeds every time.. however to prevent humanity and life on the planet from dying from him trying to prevent the world from being consumed by fire.. he surrenders to fire to give humanity time to rebuild and survive his next attempt at protection.

Note: Necromancy, It is clear both sides are using a form or another. But unlike the 'Cold Zombies' The fire god is ACTUALLY using necromancy, where the Other is merely using spirits to posses corpses (recycling).. Sacrifices to the Other are alive.. There is nothing that indicates the White walker actually killing the offering but 'converting' them, Like Castor's (I think that his name) son's, are being turned into white walkers.. or being converted at a greater level then just thru faith..

This time.. like the time 8000 years ago.. The god of fire is too strong, Summer lasted to long.. The (demonic) followers of fire are at the wall of ice (that may be the main barrier against the demons and the lord of fire) and now the White walkers are mobilizing to repel them. To ultimately prevent the actual winter of fire.. However.. like before.. Humanity (who are afraid, ignorant, and misunderstanding ((which is reasonable in this case.))) of what the Other is actually trying to do and had to bring forth his weapons to fight the lord of fire.. and humanity is only caught in the cross fire.

Ergh.. I had a lot more details to bring forth but i think this is enough to get my point across, haha.. anyway.. The Other and the fire god are most likely not good or evil.. but just a struggle between the every consuming horror that is fire and deathly embrace of ice.

P.S. The dragons included in this theory could just be an extra lair of protection against the cold.. A protection against the coming cold that being used to save humanity.. or just hellspawn created by the god of fire... either way..

[danm_999]

If the Others are the displaced original inhabitants of the land, the 'wronged' party in the equation, who are simply pushing back against human agression; why are the Children of the Forest and Giants, also ancient original inhabitants, and neither of whom have any great cause to love human expansion, siding with the humans? Shouldn't they be siding with the Others to shatter human dominance?

See, this is the problem I have with this theory. There are four sentient races in Westeros. Three of them are on one team, which tells you something about the other team.

[Kyll.Ing.]

At any rate, I think people are simplifying The Others too much. Or rather, making too broad generalizations.

Martin has been careful to show us that "the enemy" are usually people too. For instance, when Lannister soldiers attack Yoren's Party in ACoK, they aren't a swarm of identical drones. Arya describes one of them as being terrified as he tries to storm their holdfast, and there are screams and sobbing to be heard after the battle.

Sweeping generalizations along the lines of "All Tyroshi are greedy" or "Bravoosi are all extravagant" have been proven wrong several times. You can't take an entire group of people and apply the same traits to everybody. People are different. I'd go as far as saying "there are no mindless drones" is a central theme of the story. People are people, no matter their background.

However, The Others are always talked about on here as an extremely homogenous group. It's like people think they have one mind, all act for the same goals, no individuality, no character. Mindless servants of evil, like the Orcs of Mordor or the Dementors from Harry Potter. They aren't treated as anything but a walking force of nature. People seem to assume they have no society, no politics, and no formal organization (because they are all, effectively, the same anyway). Why is that automatically assumed to be the case?

I think the next book will show the Others to be a little more complex than previously seen. Perhaps there is infighting. Factions scheming for power. Perhaps most of the Others are perfectly content with the status quo, I mean they've had eight thousand peaceful years in the Land of Always Winter after all. It could be that all the wighting and killing in the Haunted Forest is the work of a few exiled jackasses who try to start a war or something. Or maybe it's a reponse to the wildlings organizing themselves under Mance Rayder, opening graves in search of ancient weapons and such. The last time the Others saw humans amassed in great numbers, there was a war and the Others lost badly. Perhaps they're just trying to force the wildlings south of the Wall, to keep the Haunted Forest a peaceful buffer zone.

Thematically, the Others not being mindless evil invaders would also fit, I think. The Night's Watch severely overestimating the dangers. Stories becoming legends over time, exaggerated through eight millennia, with the result that people instinctively believe the Others to be evil and dangerous. Perhaps this won't even be revealed to the Night's Watch, so they continue guarding their Wall against imagined dangers.

[Game Of Thrones]

For five books, the Humans have been portrayed as the ULTIMATE EVIL beings. They kill all apples and turn them into shit. There is nothing in the books that suggest they are misunderstood or capable of any compassion.

Again, it would be a horrible writing if in the last two books the Humans are transformed into some noble being who happens to have very good reason to kill innocent apples and turn them into fecal matter.

I don't expect GRRM to condone genocide of apples and oranges.

[Game Of Thrones]

If the Others are the displaced original inhabitants of the land, the 'wronged' party in the equation, who are simply pushing back against human agression; why are the Children of the Forest and Giants, also ancient original inhabitants, and neither of whom have any great cause to love human expansion, siding with the humans? Shouldn't they be siding with the Others to shatter human dominance?

See, this is the problem I have with this theory. There are four sentient races in Westeros. Three of them are on one team, which tells you something about the other team.

I thought the giants were neutral.