Cersei Lannister the Sympathetic Villain

[Blueberry Stark]

It would be justice, and it wouldn't involve public humiliation. In European culture, it was considered to be a dignified death for members of the nobility.

Well, I'd love for that to be Cersei's fate, but not until the very end. I actually love her as a villain - she is hilarious. Also, I would prefer it to either brother murdering her, esp Jaime. Killing family members isn't something that I can root for, even when it's fiction and they are as bad as Cersei.

[amanofhonor]

Cersei has my sympathy because she is a quality mother. Just like a female lion, protective. What would you have done differently in her place? Let Jon Arryn tell the whole kingdom the truth about Joffrey, Tommen and Mircella and have your own children murdered? Because that's what would've happened if Robert found out. Some of you said that there are other villains such as Theon Greyjoy more worthy of sympathy. Well, no Theon is a traitor and he had a choice, Cersei didn't. She is guilty of having sex with his brother but his brother was probably the only person who ever loved her.

[Blueberry Stark]

Cersei has my sympathy because she is a quality mother. Just like a female lion, protective. What would you have done differently in her place? Let Jon Arryn tell the whole kingdom the truth about Joffrey, Tommen and Mircella and have your own children murdered? Because that's what would've happened if Robert found out. Some of you said that there are other villains such as Theon Greyjoy more worthy of sympathy. Well, no Theon is a traitor and he had a choice, Cersei didn't. She is guilty of having sex with his brother but his brother was probably the only person who ever loved her.

Theon is deplorable because he had two children murdered to cover up his mistakes; Cersei had ALL of Robert's bastards that she could find killed, including a newborn baby, just in case they could threaten her son's claim later. What about her other heinous crimes? How is feeding Qyburn live human beings for his twisted experiments helping her kids?

While I feel nothing but sympathy for Cersei when Joffery dies, and later when she is haunted by the memory of his death, I can't see her as a "quality mother." She spoiled Joffery until he was a completely entitled, ruthless, inept piece of shit, and that's putting it mildly. She is horrible to Tommen. One of her first thoughts when she hears of Myrcella being disfigured is that it's a shame because she was so pretty. I would maybe think that too, honestly, but not before worrying about whether or not she's still in danger or physical and mental pain.

Ultimately I love Cersei as a character and a villain, and I make no apologies for it because it's fiction, and none of the terrible things that she does are really being done; furthermore, I have sympathy for her as a human being, albeit fictional, when she is suffering. Martin has done an excellent job, imo, of depicting Cersei as a mother who deeply loves her children, but is nonetheless a terrible mother. Being a good mother and having love for one's children don't always go hand in hand, and Cersei is an excellent example of this.

[Sansa_Stark]

Cersei has my sympathy because she is a quality mother. Just like a female lion, protective. What would you have done differently in her place? Let Jon Arryn tell the whole kingdom the truth about Joffrey, Tommen and Mircella and have your own children murdered? Because that's what would've happened if Robert found out. Some of you said that there are other villains such as Theon Greyjoy more worthy of sympathy. Well, no Theon is a traitor and he had a choice, Cersei didn't. She is guilty of having sex with his brother but his brother was probably the only person who ever loved her.

Having sex with her brother and birthing incest babies was a choice. Her price for the power she wanted for her and her children was to bear Robert children. She refused to do that and still wanted power.

Problem with Cersei is despite all of her notions that she does everything she can to protect her children is that she has no problem risking them just to play the game. Like having sex with Jaime in Winterfell. Ned Stark could have walked in at any moment. If Jaime killed Ned, they couldn't possibly pass it off as an accident and war happens. One the Lannisters are likely to lose.

[Cas Stark]

A quality mother is she?

The mother who indulged and excused and worst of all, encouraged the the worst traits of her sociopath of a son, Joff, virtually ensuring he would be a crazed tyrant the minute he got any power. Good job mom.

The mother who then, turned to her second son, and brutally bullies and verbally abuses him in order to exert her will over him and ensure she has all power. Good job mom.

The mother who pays virtually no attention to her daughter except to rage about it when the daughter is taken out of her control and spends more time plotting vengeance than she does worrying about the girl's health. Good job mom.

Yeah, like I said, no sympathy is due mommy dearest in that regard.

[Sansa_Stark]

Yeah. Cersei gave about 4 sentences of concern for Myrcella and then stopped caring.

Catelyn Tully was broken for weeks because of her son's crippling.

[Ranger Kragin]

Jaime, Dany, and Tyrion have all committed acts every bit as bad as Cersei's. But, they are all shown to have more redeeming features than she has.

Yes, but why is it so?

The Redemption path is very often through hell, Cercei's hasn't had a chance to Redemption until the Walk of Shame, which completely soils her pride.

Let's see how she develops through her personal inferno in WOW.

She is completely left alone, unlike Jaime, Dany and Tyrion.

The only possible redeeming act that I see is for her is to die a painful death in order to save her children or perhaps suicide.

She's completely without any guidance. She has this immense power and doesn't know how to use it, very much like Joffrey. She's painfully incompetent as mother and ruler, but she doesn't see it. Robert is the only model she had as a ruler.

Her inability to see is not her fault, she's borne this way and she was taught to smile and to please instead to fight and command.

Dany was brought up to please and submit as well, but she's more observant than Cercei, she is borne this way. Dany has been bullied by her brother, she grew up naturally sensitive towards the weak, the innocents.

Cercei bullied her brother Tyrion, but I am quite sure she simply emulated her father behaviour without any doubt of this was wrong or right.

Therefore she cannot be personally accounted for bad deeds that she does not see as bad at all, but self-defence acts. She is deeply paranoid, how responsible can she be?

Blinded by her pride and (missing) education, she's a victim of herself and there is nothing she can do.

Quite pathetic actually.

[Sansa_Stark]

You don't need to go through some kind of horrible ordeal to redeem yourself.

Tyrion's crimes are pretty much just as bad as Cersei's. If you were to just measure their "bad" then yes, they would be quite equal.

But what makes Tyrion better than Cersei is that he is capable of altruism. Saving Sansa from Joffrey's beatings. Saving Jorah and Penny at one point. Giving Bran the saddle. Even if its just a few kind acts. It redeems Tyrion FAR more than Cersei does.

Cersei has been beaten and raped by Robert. SHE SHOULD have some empathy for other women.

But nope. Whenever she sees some old septa's praying in AFFC all she thinks is "half of them are praying for a good raping."

Point is, Cersei is incapable of altruism. And that is why she is detested and seen as irredeemable to some.

And protecting her children is not altruism.

1. She is not just protecting her children, she is also protecting her power.

2. She also has no problem risking her children's lives just to play the game.

[amanofhonor]

Well-written arguments there and there are truths to them. So maybe not a quality a mother in terms of raising a kid but she would do anything to protect them.

But Myrcella didn't get crippled in the first place so comparing Cersei's concerns for Myrcela's well being, to Catelyn Stark's sadness over Bran's state is not appropriate.

I also don't think that Cersei encouraged Joffrey's cruel behaviour. Joffrey is born of incest so he is, genetically and mentally defective. (just like the Targaryens)

Yes, Cersei had Robert's bastards killed but they were loose ends that needed to be dealt with. That is how it always worked in real life as well. It is really not unique in any way.

Yes, she not just protecting her children she is protecting her power, but they are one and the same.

I can't remember if it was in the books because I read them a while ago but in the series it was mentioned that at the beginning of their marriage Cersei loved Robert, but once in their bed a drunk Robert whispered 'Lyanna' to Cersei. Not a good thing to hear on the first night with your loved one.

Now I don't like Cersei at all, but she is far from being the worst villain in Westeros and her actions to me are much more justified, than for example Theon's.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I wouldn't mind her and Jeyne Poole switching places

[Blueberry Stark]

Well-written arguments there and there are truths to them. So maybe not a quality a mother in terms of raising a kid but she would do anything to protect them.

But Myrcella didn't get crippled in the first place so comparing Cersei's concerns for Myrcela's well being, to Catelyn Stark's sadness over Bran's state is not appropriate.

I also don't think that Cersei encouraged Joffrey's cruel behaviour. Joffrey is born of incest so he is, genetically and mentally defective. (just like the Targaryens)

Yes, Cersei had Robert's bastards killed but they were loose ends that needed to be dealt with. That is how it always worked in real life as well. It is really not unique in any way.

Yes, she not just protecting her children she is protecting her power, but they are one and the same.

I can't remember if it was in the books because I read them a while ago but in the series it was mentioned that at the beginning of their marriage Cersei loved Robert, but once in their bed a drunk Robert whispered 'Lyanna' to Cersei. Not a good thing to hear on the first night with your loved one.

Now I don't like Cersei at all, but she is far from being the worst villain in Westeros and her actions to me are much more justified, than for example Theon's.

That's funny, because I like her a lot, but I know she's a terrible person, mother, ruler, and sister. To me, she's much less understandable than Theon, and her actions are a lot less forgivable. At any rate, to each his own; it is only fiction.

I wouldn't mind her and Jeyne Poole switching places

Yikes, I wouldn't wish that on anybody, @ least not when Ramsey still had her!

[SeanF]

You don't need to go through some kind of horrible ordeal to redeem yourself.

Tyrion's crimes are pretty much just as bad as Cersei's. If you were to just measure their "bad" then yes, they would be quite equal.

But what makes Tyrion better than Cersei is that he is capable of altruism. Saving Sansa from Joffrey's beatings. Saving Jorah and Penny at one point. Giving Bran the saddle. Even if its just a few kind acts. It redeems Tyrion FAR more than Cersei does.

I think so. Daenerys is likewise capable of great compassion and altruism, notwithstanding that her body count is far higher than Cersei's.

[Ranger Kragin]

I disagree on the redemption path. I have never seen a redemption path with wasn't linked to pain. The darker the deeds, the more painful the path, if not physically, mentally through remorse, guilt feelings...

What is the point of redeeming if not through pain?

I guess that now even Theon looks less evil after the ordeal he's been through.

My point here is: is she responsible, is she aware that what she does is wrong?

I do not recall her being raped by Robert, I think he was too drunk to do anything and she said she had learned to please him otherwise, he wouldn't remember anyway.

She was hit, and that hit her pride.

She can't be empathic towards other women because I don't think she consider herself one. She wanted to be a man and in her own twisted mind she is more man than woman. Your quote

"half of them are praying for a good raping."

is something a man would say, don't you think?

A very cynical man.

Not a woman.

And protecting her children is not altruism.

Is not given for granted either. Not every mother loves unconditionally her children, this is the lioness trait in Cercei.

She loves Joffrey nevertheless. I don't think you can argue here otherwise, she's devastated when he dies.

[Cas Stark]

Cersei has not been redeemed by any of her alleged suffering, she did not come to any ability to be empathetic as a result of her bad marriage or her son dying in front of her. All of those years in a bad marriage did nothing to awaken any sympathetic nature in her, she is, if anything, less compassionate than ever, so either she wasn't really suffering....or she is incapable herself of being redeemed or of attaining any higher awareness because she does not experience real emotion.

[DavosSeaworthy]

Sounds like the author hasn't read the books at all. HBO whitewashes her character and make Joffrey do the things she does in the books. For example in the show it was Joffrey who sent the KG after Tyrion in the BOBWB and it was Joffrey who had all his half brothers and sisters killed

I get the exact same vibe. The show changes her to make her more sympathetic, putting a lot of the shit that makes her an awful person on Joffrey.

[Blueberry Stark]

Cersei has not been redeemed by any of her alleged suffering, she did not come to any ability to be empathetic as a result of her bad marriage or her son dying in front of her. All of those years in a bad marriage did nothing to awaken any sympathetic nature in her, she is, if anything, less compassionate than ever, so either she wasn't really suffering....or she is incapable herself of being redeemed or of attaining any higher awareness because she does not experience real emotion.

I don't doubt that she's suffered. Her mother died, her father was cold to her, her marriage to Robert is horrible (he does rape her), her son dies in front of her, she constantly fears for her other children, her father dies, and she undergoes the Walk of Shame. However, I agree with you 100% that all of her suffering has only led to her being less compassionate. Idk what it would take for Cersei to seek redemption; she always blames other people for her misfortunes and sorrows. She is bitter, paranoid, and lacks any empathy, which makes her a fun villain, but incapable of redeeming herself.

[Drogon'sWrath]

I did feel some sympathy for what Robert did to her and when Joffrey died. I did feel a tiny bit of sympathy during the WOS, but that's mostly because she wasn't really being punished for her actually wrongdoings. And there's a massive list of them. My disdain for her far outweighs any sympathy I may have.

1) She killed her childhood friend when she was 10. I've seen people excuse some of her later actions because of her abuse at the hands of Robert, but this shows she was always on the crazy side.

2) She basically put the well-being of the realm in danger when she was fucking Jaime and putting their illegitimate children on the throne.

3) She has all of Robert's bastards killed. Or, at least the ones she can find. That's horrible, and there is absolutely no way to justify that.

4) She has people sent to Qyburn. Qyburn, a man who is only better than Ramsay because he doesn't hunt women for sport. And Cersei sends people to this monster. Some of whom were once friends.

5) Her paranoia leads her to falsely accuse Margaery of, essentially, cheating on the king. And it's apparently lost on her that she once did the exact same thing.

6) She had the previous high septon killed.

There are others, but these are the first that came to mind. And she shows not the slightest hint of remorse or regret for anything she has done. And if anything, the Walk will probably make her even worse. Her thinking "Oh yes" upon seeing Robert Strong lead me to believe that she won't stay broken. If anything, she'll come back with even more ridiculous schemes, and maybe these will be the ones that finally lead to her death. She's a great character, but she is not on any type of redemption path and is not very sympathetic. To be either, you have to begin to show at least a little remorse for a few of your misdeeds. At the very least, you have to show you are capable of altruism. I've seen zero indication of either from Cersei. A great character she may be, but Cersei is not very sympathetic and is not on any path to redemption.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well-written arguments there and there are truths to them. So maybe not a quality a mother in terms of raising a kid but she would do anything to protect them.

More like she'd do anything to protect HERSELF. She has no large-scale power in her own right, only through her kids and ONLY because it benefits people like the Tyrells to overlook who their father really is. She protects the kids because without them she's nothing, not out of any sincere regard for them or their well being.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She can't be empathic towards other women because I don't think she consider herself one. She wanted to be a man and in her own twisted mind she is more man than woman.

Really great observation and it hits at the heart of why I absolutely despise any effort to elevate Cersei as a feminist symbol. The only woman whom Cersei gives a damn about is Cersei. Rights and opportunities for other women? Lol no.

[danm_999]

Probably the absolute best way to word this. There is an absolute crap ton of despicable deeds to lay at Cersei's feet, including murder and the attempted murder of innocent children. So for her to get punished in what basically amounts to state-sanctioned slutshaming feels ... sour. It's like Al Capone getting busted for tax evasion.

This is a very good way to put it. I keep bouncing back and forth on exactly how I feel about Cersei's Walk of Shame. Part of me is jubilant all her chickens have finally come home to roost. After all, this is exactly what she had in mind for Margaery Tyrell when she began this Faith sponsored slut hunt. This is exactly the kind of shit she dreamed up befalling Selyse Baratheon when she spread the rumour about her fucking Patchface, and this is, in a very real sense, a measure of justice for Alayaya who Cersei had flogged and thrown naked outside the gates of the Red Keep, who doubtless had to endure her own walk of shame.

On the other hand it's totally a gross, misogynistic punishment that is piling on Cersei for completely the wrong reasons, so far as the Faith is concerned. After all, who gives a shit if she slept with Lancel and the Kettleblacks, she killed children! It's totally unsatisfying and creepy because the people meting out the punishment are so morally problematic themselves I really can't enjoy the pure schadenfreude. It's why it's so much easier to enjoy an end to a character like Janos Slynt, because the punishment is so pure and righteous you can feel good about it being enacted.