Battle of the ford: Robbs reaction.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Ok so here is the matter I want to get opinions of. Was really robbs plan to let tywin cross the riverlands to face him or it is just a bluf to get edmure blamed after knowing what happened in KL and the tyrell-lannisters new alliance???? Was Edmure choice so dumb and ruined robb master plan? In that case, wouldnt edmure and bolton needed to know the freaking plan to join robb and crash tywin from behind? And even so, was letting stannis taking KL a smart move? I would prefer lannisters getting rid of stannis if I was robb, than to face a stronger mannis. Stannis would had been a stronger enemy than lannisters, theres no room to negotiate with him, and Jaime is no longer a good bargain card...so what do you think?

[Minstral]

Ok so here is the matter I want to get opinions of. Was really robbs plan to let tywin cross the riverlands to face him or it is just a bluf after knowing what happened in KL and the tyrell-lannisters new alliance???? Was Edmure choice so dumb and ruined robb master plan? In that case, wouldnt edmure and bolton needed to know the freaking plan to join robb and crash tywin from behind? And even so, was letting stannis taking KL a smart move? I would prefer lannisters getting rid of stannis if I was robb, than to face a stronger mannis. Stannis would had been a stronger enemy than lannisters, theres no room to negotiate with him, and Jaime is no longer a good bargain card...so what do you think?

Oh Jeebus....I think that this has been discussed to the point of no return many times and many viewpoints have been given. I also think that you are being too biased of Stannis in this opening statement.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Ok so here is the matter I want to get opinions of. Was really robbs plan to let tywin cross the riverlands to face him or it is just a bluf to get edmure blamed after knowing what happened in KL and the tyrell-lannisters new alliance???? Was Edmure choice so dumb and ruined robb master plan? In that case, wouldnt edmure and bolton needed to know the freaking plan to join robb and crash tywin from behind? And even so, was letting stannis taking KL a smart move? I would prefer lannisters getting rid of stannis if I was robb, than to face a stronger mannis. Stannis would had been a stronger enemy than lannisters, theres no room to negotiate with him, and Jaime is no longer a good bargain card...so what do you think?

Robbs beef was with Joffrey and the Lannisters. Had Stannis or Renly won I'm sure he would of backed down his Kingship claims, even if it meant losing face with his bannermen.

[MotherAnduin]

Robbs beef was with Joffrey and the Lannisters. Had Stannis or Renly won I'm sure he would of backed down his Kingship claims, even if it meant losing face with his bannermen.

I don't think so. He was building a fleet, encouraging other regions to break away and crown themselves as Kings. Cat is very sceptical about the prospects of Robb giving up his crown. Robb clearly loved the idea of being a king. If he didn't want it, he would have put his foot down during the council. When Robb talks about his crowning, he talks about how he planned on being a strong king who would show admirable qualities.

[Barty]

Ok so here is the matter I want to get opinions of. Was really robbs plan to let tywin cross the riverlands to face him or it is just a bluf to get edmure blamed after knowing what happened in KL and the tyrell-lannisters new alliance???? Was Edmure choice so dumb and ruined robb master plan? In that case, wouldnt edmure and bolton needed to know the freaking plan to join robb and crash tywin from behind? And even so, was letting stannis taking KL a smart move? I would prefer lannisters getting rid of stannis if I was robb, than to face a stronger mannis. Stannis would had been a stronger enemy than lannisters, theres no room to negotiate with him, and Jaime is no longer a good bargain card...so what do you think?

I have given my opinion about this topic multiple times on other threads - The gist is that Robb did not need Edmure and Bolton closing in behind Tywin because he never intended to fight Tywin. He intended to trap Tywin in the west long enough for Stannis to take KL and then make peace with Tywin. Robb's beef is with Joffrey and Cersei, with them dead he can easily make peace with the Lannisters. Tywin has no choice but to accept Robb's offer of peace since he now has to worry about Stannis. Robb does not need to bow to Stannis either since Stannis is no threat to Robb as long as Tywin is alive(Stannis cannot march North leaving his flank and capital open to attack from the west).

End scenario - The Wolf looks on and grows stronger(ready to pounce on the weakened winner) while the Stag and the Lion fight it out. It really was a pretty good plan and IMO would have worked perfectly if not for Edmure's glory hunting.

[shearstone]

I have given my opinion about this topic multiple times on other threads - The gist is that Robb did not need Edmure and Bolton closing in behind Tywin because he never intended to fight Tywin. He intended to trap Tywin in the west long enough for Stannis to take KL and then make peace with Tywin. Robb's beef is with Joffrey and Cersei, with them dead he can easily make peace with the Lannisters. Tywin has no choice but to accept Robb's offer of peace since he now has to worry about Stannis. Robb does not need to bow to Stannis either since Stannis is no threat to Robb as long as Tywin is alive(Stannis cannot march North leaving his flank and capital open to attack from the west).

End scenario - The Wolf looks on and grows stronger(ready to pounce on the weakened winner) while the Stag and the Lion fight it out. It really was a pretty good plan and IMO would have worked perfectly if not for Edmure's glory hunting.

Agree 100% Robb would have only thought Tywin on the ground they'd scouted if he had too but he only needed Stannis to win at the Blackwater. Tywin wasn't stupid and would definitely have made peace as he was scared of Robb, hence his extreme way of ridding himself of him. Stannis wasn't loved and would struggle to keep the realm in line once taking his kingship so would never be able to seriously make a claim on the north and the trident but the RW was pre ordained so Robb had no chance.

[Erkan12]

I think the reasons Robb just said to Edmure 'hold the riverrun' ;

1-) He doesn't need to know all plan

2-) It could be learn somehow from Tywin's spies.

If Stannis prevail in KL, this means Tyrion, Joffrey and Queen dead. This is exactly Robb want it. And after that Stannis has not 20.000 men since sure he should lose some of his while taking KL, this means he has fewer men than Robb.

Also after KL and Tywin's defeat there is no need for Jaime bargain.

[Knight Of Winter]

I'm not sure about Robb's intentions here. He claims his plan was to lure Tywin west and play catch-me-if-you-can with him while Stannis' forces take KL. The obvious hole in this plan that Stannis wasn't even sailing towards KL by the time Robb went on his western campaign, so that simply couldn't have been Robb's plan from the start.

So what was Robb's idea? Simply pillaging and filling his coffers? Or luring Tywin west - but for what purpose? Maybe he meant for Renly to march on KL while Tywin is busy (basically a plan where he gets all the risk and Renly all the benefits)? In that case, couldn't he take 5 minutes to explain it to Edmure?

Because I can't really blame Edmure for engaging Tywin on the fords. Edmure probably did most logical thing here: he feared Robb would get squished and destroyed between Tywin and whatever army Lannisters can muster in the west (like Stafford's one) - so he decided to battle Tywin himself on a favorable ground. Seems like a good strategical move. When Robb scolded Edmure, I was as much surprised as him - as what Robb told was his plan depended on too many factors that didn't exist when Robb marched west (Renly being dead, Stannis conquering Storm's End and siling on KL immediately...).

As much as I like him, I think Robb is the main culprit here. If he had taken few sentences to explain his plan to Edmure, he might have achieved his goal, whatever it was. After all, Edmure obeyed commands given to him to a tee - he did hold Riverrun.

[Pootie Tang]

Ok so here is the matter I want to get opinions of. Was really robbs plan to let tywin cross the riverlands to face him or it is just a bluf to get edmure blamed after knowing what happened in KL and the tyrell-lannisters new alliance???? Was Edmure choice so dumb and ruined robb master plan? In that case, wouldnt edmure and bolton needed to know the freaking plan to join robb and crash tywin from behind? And even so, was letting stannis taking KL a smart move? I would prefer lannisters getting rid of stannis if I was robb, than to face a stronger mannis. Stannis would had been a stronger enemy than lannisters, theres no room to negotiate with him, and Jaime is no longer a good bargain card...so what do you think?

Wait, what? Am I misreading things or are you asking wether or not robbs plan was to blame Edmure or if the blame was a post construction after his original plan failed? I think there is loads of discussion on the latter already, but the former just seems, weird.

[Erkan12]

I'm not sure about Robb's intentions here. He claims his plan was to lure Tywin west and play catch-me-if-you-can with him while Stannis' forces take KL. The obvious hole in this plan that Stannis wasn't even sailing towards KL by the time Robb went on his western campaign, so that simply couldn't have been Robb's plan from the start.

So what was Robb's idea? Simply pillaging and filling his coffers? Or luring Tywin west - but for what purpose? Maybe he meant for Renly to march on KL while Tywin is busy (basically a plan where he gets all the risk and Renly all the benefits)? In that case, couldn't he take 5 minutes to explain it to Edmure?

They learned Stannis prepare for attack to KL. So thats why they did.

Also their intend not catch-me-if-you-can, they basically want to throw them from Riverlands, lock him in the Westerlands even if they fail to defeat them ;

“We were all horsed,” Ser Brynden said. “The Lannister host was mainly foot. We planned to run Lord Tywin a merry chase up and down the coast, then slip behind him to take up a strong defensive position athwart the gold road, at a place my scouts had found where the ground would have been greatly in our favor. If he had come at us there, he would have paid a grievous price. But if he did not attack, he would have been trapped in the west, a thousand leagues from where he needed to be. All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours.”

“Lord Stannis was about to fall upon King’s Landing,” Robb said. “He might have rid us of Joffrey, the queen, and the Imp in one red stroke. Then we might have been able to make a peace.”

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Robb was king, Tully a lord. He was given an order, he should have followed it.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robb was king, Tully a lord. He was given an order, he should have followed it.

I can never really understand this point of view. It is still his Land and his people in the lands of Riverrun and he has to do what he feels is best for them. Blindly following an order is idiotic.

[Knight Of Winter]

Robb was king, Tully a lord. He was given an order, he should have followed it.

Um...the order was Hold Riverrun. Edmure followed that order - he held Riverrun.

They learned Stannis prepare for attack to KL. So thats why they did.

Also their intend not catch-me-if-you-can, they basically want to throw them from Riverlands, lock him in the Westerlands even if they fail to defeat them

I believe Brynden speaks with benefit of hindsight here. By the time Robb went west, Stannis was at best still holding siege to Storm's End. Him marching on KL could have been delayed for months, or even not happen at all if e.g. Tyrells came to relieve Storm's End. All of this Robb couldn't have known when he marched.

[Buried Treasure]

I'm not sure about Robb's intentions here. He claims his plan was to lure Tywin west and play catch-me-if-you-can with him while Stannis' forces take KL. The obvious hole in this plan that Stannis wasn't even sailing towards KL by the time Robb went on his western campaign, so that simply couldn't have been Robb's plan from the start.

So what was Robb's idea? Simply pillaging and filling his coffers? Or luring Tywin west - but for what purpose? Maybe he meant for Renly to march on KL while Tywin is busy (basically a plan where he gets all the risk and Renly all the benefits)? In that case, couldn't he take 5 minutes to explain it to Edmure?

Robb initial goal in moving west is clear. He went to destroy the Lannister army gathering in the Golden Tooth. At the start of CoK he had to take some action to avoid being crushed between two Lannister armies and he chose to surprise Stafford's army rather than risk engaging Tywin's larger army on ground of Tywin's choosing.

Robb's second goal was pillaging and weakening the west - yes filling his coffers but also making the war unsustainable for the Lannisters in the long term in case he sought terms with them. When Robb left Riverrun he was probably expecting to raid the West, but not certain about it as it was dependent on his success against Stafford. I think Robb sent Theon back to the Iron Isles around the time he left Riverrun (?) and that had a proposal that they allied to weaken the west.

What is contentious is what Robb planned with Tywin:

Before Robb left Riverrun Tywin had taken up position at Harrenhal in part because that location allowed him to react to either Renly or Robb if necessary. Robb at that point would not have expected Tywin to follow him West - Tywin had to be available to quickly counter Renly. Robb made the most of Tywin's inability to move, that is why he was able to romp up and down the westerlands, Robb has a reputation as a commander with good discipline in the field (and he had the Blackfish commanding his outriders) so it is not a stretch to presume Robb had scouts and contingency plans in case Tywin unexpectedly tried a quick dash west / beat Robb / move back to cover KL against Renly.

When Stannis made his declaration that would not have changed the situation for Robb. Tywin would now have to cover KL against Stannis or Renly. Though we don't actually know how early or late Robb learned that Stannis was claiming kingship.

When Stannis went to war with Renly, Tywin was freed to act - he no longer had to cover KL against an attack. Wars usually take some time, so Tywin presumed this one would and he decided that gave him enough time to defeat Robb before KL came back under threat from the winning Baratheon brother. We do not know when or if Robb learned that Stannis and Renly were going to war - if Robb got ravenmail on that he may have worked out for himself that Tywin would come west (on the principle that in Tywin's shoes he would do so himself as it is the obvious move), or Robb may have learned that Tywin's army was moving from scouts.

In any case, only once Robb knew Tywin was coming did he select an ambush site and arrange his army to meet Tywin. I certainly don't think Robb was lying that he had an actual ambush planned - such a blatent lie would seem OOC for Robb.

The real controversy is whether Robb should have sent orders to Edmure explicitly saying 'let Tywin's army pass', my own opinion is that Robb would not have thought it necessary for two reasons:

- I think to Robb it was self-evident that it was better to have Tywin's army in the West than in the Riverlands, and that he presumed it would be to Edmure too. In other words, he over-estimated Edmure's tactical understanding.

- When Robb left the Riverlands there was no riverland army gathered - they were all in their own lands - so Edmure did not have an army with which to stop Tywin. Edmure had only a garrison to command, which is why the order to 'hold Riverrun' should have sufficed.

When Robb was guilting Edmure into marriage he may have playing an underhand game by saying his orders to Edmure should have been enough whilst secretly thinking 'I screwed up by not telling Edmure my plan'. Or Robb may have been truthful in really thinking that Edmure had screwed up by acting when he should not have.

In any case I think if we are going to fault Robb for not sharing his plans with Edmure then we should also fault Edmure for not sharing his plans with Robb - Edmure's big scheme for defeating Tywin was that after victory at the fords he would create a trap and Robb's cavalry would swoop in to crush Tywin - yet Robb had no knowledge of that plan.

[Erkan12]

Um...the order was Hold Riverrun. Edmure followed that order - he held Riverrun.

I believe Brynden speaks with benefit of hindsight here. By the time Robb went west, Stannis was at best still holding siege to Storm's End. Him marching on KL could have been delayed for months, or even not happen at all if e.g. Tyrells came to relieve Storm's End. All of this Robb couldn't have known when he marched.

Edmure fought against Tywin on open field. How it is defending the Riverrun ? Defending a castle and fighting on the field is very different thing...

But somehow he learn the situation like Balon's death, so it is no need for thinking how he learn. He just learned, since he saying 'Lord Stannis might rid us of Joffrey, Queen etc'

[greywind93]

I have a hard time blaming either one to robb his plan seemed obvious and Edmund just misinterpreted it

[James Arryn]

Some people feel (IMO wrongly) Robb was incorrect to blame Edmure, but few people I have seen believe he was insincere.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Wait, what? Am I misreading things or are you asking wether or not robbs plan was to blame Edmure or if the blame was a post construction after his original plan failed? I think there is loads of discussion on the latter already, but the former just seems, weird.

Im saying I feel there was no plan, he is pissed with the unexpected lannister-tyrell alliance, and he blames edmure, to get the guilty look from himself. And by the way, to make edmure to marry the frey he should ve married.

[James Arryn]

You believe there was no plan?

After a series of successes built on taking the initiative and strategic thinking, he decided to go play in the mud for a while and let things develop naturally?

[Chaircat Meow]

Some people feel (IMO wrongly) Robb was incorrect to blame Edmure, but few people I have seen believe he was insincere.

I think he was being insincere. In Cat II SoS Cat thinks about how he makes a show of pardoning her for releasing Jaime to trap her into accepting the westerling match. She comments how he is becoming more like a king, and putting on a mummer's show to gain acceptance. When they retire with Edmure we are told the mummery is over, but I think this clues us into to the fact it is still going on. Robb needed Edmure to marry in his place, and accept the fact the riverlands would be left at the mercy of the Lannister armies when he returned north. So he had to be broken psychologically, which we later learn he was because of the criticism. His comment about Stannis gives it away as a set up, in my view, as there is no way Robb can have known of Stannis's advance on the capital while he was in the west.

This all fits with GrrM's habit of tricking readers into thinking they are listening to strategy discussions when instead we are seeing the family dynamic play out. The point of comparison could be Tyrion's meeting with Tywin in GoT. In the first part of the scene Tywin misrepresents the war, a fact made obvious at the end of the chapter, but this is for the purpose of shaming Tyrion, and goading him into accepting a dangerous command. This shades into the way the author uses these sort of misrepresentations to portray Robb as more competent than he was.