Battle of the ford: Robbs reaction.

[Chaircat Meow]

- When Robb left the Riverlands there was no riverland army gathered - they were all in their own lands - so Edmure did not have an army with which to stop Tywin. Edmure had only a garrison to command, which is why the order to 'hold Riverrun' should have sufficed.

You can't defend castles without the support of a field army, in the long run. If Tywin besieged Riverrun is Edmure really supposed to not recall his army to menace his forces there. What if Tywin attacked other castles, thoise of prominent bannermen. Were they just to be allowed to fall ..?

[Pootie Tang]

Im saying I feel there was no plan, he is pissed with the unexpected lannister-tyrell alliance, and he blames edmure, to get the guilty look from himself. And by the way, to make edmure to marry the frey he should ve married.

Okay, just trying to clarify. Valid opinion Btw.

[Erkan12]

You can't defend castles without the support of a field army, in the long run. If Tywin besieged Riverrun is Edmure really supposed to not recall his army to menace his forces there. What if Tywin attacked other castles, thoise of prominent bannermen. Were they just to be allowed to fall ..?

Tywin was going to Westerlands, it is certain thing, and Edmure thinks Robb don't want Tywin in Westerlands, because he thinks Robb was there because plunder.

Also of course you can defend the castle with castle garrison that is the point of 'garrison'.

Some people feel (IMO wrongly) Robb was incorrect to blame Edmure, but few people I have seen believe he was insincere.

Not only Robb, Blackfish blame him too, and after that Edmure accept his fault. It is strange that when Edmure accept his fault some people don't.

[JonathanTheBold]

I can never really understand this point of view. It is still his Land and his people in the lands of Riverrun and he has to do what he feels is best for them. Blindly following an order is idiotic.

Robs king in the north and of the trident so technically their his lands and his people and Edmure should have just done as he's told.And when your under someone's command and they know more about the situation and are the ones makeing all the plans your job is to shut the fuck up and do as your told plain and simple that why the milatry has and anyother organization has ranks because everyone thinks they know what's best even when they don't. Rember shit rolls down hill

[Chaircat Meow]

Also of course you can defend the castle with castle garrison that is the point of 'garrison'.

They are really meant to hold out until they are relieved you know. You have to coordinate castle defenses with the action of the army. Without that they serve as a delay only, in most cases.

[Erkan12]

And another issue is, some thinks or say ''Edmure was protecting his own lands'' but it is wrong. Tywin was already in Riverlands. (Harrenhal)

Robb want to lure him in Westerlands, in worst scenario (even if he defeat and throw back Robb's forces) Tywin was leaving the Riverlands.

But Edmure think Robb was there for plunder and he doesn't want Tywin pass, so Edmure try to stop Tywin, thats why he fought... (And he want to won battle like Young Wolf)

Edmure swung down from his saddle. He was a head taller than she was, but he would always be her little brother. “Cat,” he said unhappily, “Lord Tywin is coming-“

“He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety.”

“This is Tully land,” Edmure declared. “If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson.”

The same lesson you taught his son? Her brother could be stubborn as river rock when his pride was touched, but neither of them was likely to forget how Ser Jaime had cut Edmure’s host to bloody pieces the last

time he had offered battle.

And he fucked up everything. (Again)

[Chaircat Meow]

Edmure's reasons for giving battle were not the best no. He could have made a stronger case than he did.

[Buried Treasure]

You can't defend castles without the support of a field army, in the long run. If Tywin besieged Riverrun is Edmure really supposed to not recall his army to menace his forces there. What if Tywin attacked other castles, thoise of prominent bannermen. Were they just to be allowed to fall ..?

An army can serve as a relieving force, but if a besieged Riverrun had required relieving I certainly would not have expected Edmure to be at the head of that army as he was supposed to be inside holding the castle – so that is hardly a justification for Edmure raising an army when he did. Plus there are many ‘ifs’ before getting to the point of Riverrun needing a Riverland relief army. If Tywin chooses to use his unknown window of time whilst KL is not under threat to mess around laying a siege instead of dealing with the Young Wolf’s army ravaging his own lands, if Riverrun can’t hold against a siege despite being described as extremely defensible, if Tywin doesn’t need to abandon siege to fight the Stannis/ Renly victor before Riverrun starved, if Robb was unable to return to the Riverlands to head the relief army or command somebody else to raise a relief army.

When the Riverlords were sent home (at Edmure’s request) a defensive strategy was chosen for the riverlands whilst Robb went on the offensive in the West. Edmure’s choice to fight Tywin at the Fords was tactically defensive but strategically offensive. That is to say: Edmure changed the strategy of half of Robb’s forces without bothering to inform him.

[shearstone]

His reasoning was why is my kid of a nephew so good at war and I don't get any praise I'm older more experiences, blah blah etc. He should have done what he's told not sacrifice mens lives for a bit of showboating and glory hunting. Always picture him hearing the screaming at the RW but thinking doesn't matter got laid.

[Chaircat Meow]

An army can serve as a relieving force, but if a besieged Riverrun had required relieving I certainly would not have expected Edmure to be at the head of that army as he was supposed to be inside holding the castle – so that is hardly a justification for Edmure raising an army when he did. Plus there are many ‘ifs’ before getting to the point of Riverrun needing a Riverland relief army. If Tywin chooses to use his unknown window of time whilst KL is not under threat to mess around laying a siege instead of dealing with the Young Wolf’s army ravaging his own lands, if Riverrun can’t hold against a siege despite being described as extremely defensible, if Tywin doesn’t need to abandon siege to fight the Stannis/ Renly victor before Riverrun starved, if Robb was unable to return to the Riverlands to head the relief army or command somebody else to raise a relief army.

When the Riverlords were sent home (at Edmure’s request) a defensive strategy was chosen for the riverlands whilst Robb went on the offensive in the West. Edmure’s choice to fight Tywin at the Fords was tactically defensive but strategically offensive. That is to say: Edmure changed the strategy of half of Robb’s forces without bothering to inform him.

The army was dispersed because most of the lannister force was encamped just west of Harrenhal but it was throwing out bands of reavers all across the region, to the Twins in the north, to Stone Hedge, Raventree in the west etc. Once the lannister leaders drew in their foragers and marched the entire army west regrouping the riverland army was surely just a sensible move to take, else the riverlords could be picked off piecemeal. The idea Robb's order implied Edmure had no more duties than to see the garrison at RR well provisioned when he is stand in for Hoster as LP bugs me. You can't expect a whole region to be left without an overall commander when a hostile army is camped on it. IMHO GrrM either messed up, or, he was doing all this quite deliberately to show us Edmure was being put on a guilt trip. There is an old thread about this where Ran recalled GrrM had suggested this was his take http://asoiaf.wester... edmure__st__40 (page 3) mind you, no one could ever find that interview so ...

[Frey Pie]

Robb initial goal in moving west is clear. He went to destroy the Lannister army gathering in the Golden Tooth. At the start of CoK he had to take some action to avoid being crushed between two Lannister armies and he chose to surprise Stafford's army rather than risk engaging Tywin's larger army on ground of Tywin's choosing.

Robb's second goal was pillaging and weakening the west - yes filling his coffers but also making the war unsustainable for the Lannisters in the long term in case he sought terms with them. When Robb left Riverrun he was probably expecting to raid the West, but not certain about it as it was dependent on his success against Stafford. I think Robb sent Theon back to the Iron Isles around the time he left Riverrun (?) and that had a proposal that they allied to weaken the west.

What is contentious is what Robb planned with Tywin:

Before Robb left Riverrun Tywin had taken up position at Harrenhal in part because that location allowed him to react to either Renly or Robb if necessary. Robb at that point would not have expected Tywin to follow him West - Tywin had to be available to quickly counter Renly. Robb made the most of Tywin's inability to move, that is why he was able to romp up and down the westerlands, Robb has a reputation as a commander with good discipline in the field (and he had the Blackfish commanding his outriders) so it is not a stretch to presume Robb had scouts and contingency plans in case Tywin unexpectedly tried a quick dash west / beat Robb / move back to cover KL against Renly.

When Stannis made his declaration that would not have changed the situation for Robb. Tywin would now have to cover KL against Stannis or Renly. Though we don't actually know how early or late Robb learned that Stannis was claiming kingship.

When Stannis went to war with Renly, Tywin was freed to act - he no longer had to cover KL against an attack. Wars usually take some time, so Tywin presumed this one would and he decided that gave him enough time to defeat Robb before KL came back under threat from the winning Baratheon brother. We do not know when or if Robb learned that Stannis and Renly were going to war - if Robb got ravenmail on that he may have worked out for himself that Tywin would come west (on the principle that in Tywin's shoes he would do so himself as it is the obvious move), or Robb may have learned that Tywin's army was moving from scouts.

In any case, only once Robb knew Tywin was coming did he select an ambush site and arrange his army to meet Tywin. I certainly don't think Robb was lying that he had an actual ambush planned - such a blatent lie would seem OOC for Robb.

The real controversy is whether Robb should have sent orders to Edmure explicitly saying 'let Tywin's army pass', my own opinion is that Robb would not have thought it necessary for two reasons:

- I think to Robb it was self-evident that it was better to have Tywin's army in the West than in the Riverlands, and that he presumed it would be to Edmure too. In other words, he over-estimated Edmure's tactical understanding.

- When Robb left the Riverlands there was no riverland army gathered - they were all in their own lands - so Edmure did not have an army with which to stop Tywin. Edmure had only a garrison to command, which is why the order to 'hold Riverrun' should have sufficed.

When Robb was guilting Edmure into marriage he may have playing an underhand game by saying his orders to Edmure should have been enough whilst secretly thinking 'I screwed up by not telling Edmure my plan'. Or Robb may have been truthful in really thinking that Edmure had screwed up by acting when he should not have.

In any case I think if we are going to fault Robb for not sharing his plans with Edmure then we should also fault Edmure for not sharing his plans with Robb - Edmure's big scheme for defeating Tywin was that after victory at the fords he would create a trap and Robb's cavalry would swoop in to crush Tywin - yet Robb had no knowledge of that plan.

Well done ser!!!

[Barty]

I think Robb did realize that Edmure stopping Tywin was partly his own fault(his orders were not very clear) but he puts the entire blame on Edmure to force him into marrying Frey. However this does not mean that there was no plan to lure Tywin into the west - it only means that the plan's failure was both Robb and Edmure's fault(or just plain Lannister luck).

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Edmure was not at fault. Robb screwed up. If he had a plan beyond "hold Riverrun" (which I doubt) he should have articulated it better.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Not only Robb, Blackfish blame him too, and after that Edmure accept his fault. It is strange that when Edmure accept his fault some people don't.

Edmure is the kind of guy that lets thw smallfolk in the castle when they're under attack. He's simply a really nice person who won't blame others for anything.

[Erkan12]

I don't believe that GRRM told Blackfish and Robb blaming Edmure because of marriage thing.

So what reasons Blackfish have for blaming Edmure ? Yes Robb has fault but Blackfish blaming him too, Blackfish has no reason for that. I don't see any 'politic' play on this one. They were not smart about politic that way, the reason they lost was 'politic'.

I say it is just Edmure fans speculation. Robb was even silence for it ;

Blackfish :

that you owe His Grace your thanks for his forbearance. He played out that mummer’s farce in the Great Hall so as not to shame you before your own people. Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of the fords.

I don't think both Robb and Blackfish would 'lie' about that either. They are not Littlefinger and Varys.

And more importantly, the marriage idea is coming from Cat, (not Robb or Blackfish)

“We must win back the Freys,” said Robb. “With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires ... apologies, honors, lands, gold ... there must be something that would soothe his pride...”

“Not something,” said Catelyn. “Someone.”

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Oh Jeebus....I think that this has been discussed to the point of no return many times and many viewpoints have been given. I also think that you are being too biased of Stannis in this opening statement.

Stannis is a far better soldier than tywin. And there would not be any room to negotiate as robb has with lannisters. Even the jaime lannisters card has no more value. Lannisters may let robb be king of the north; stannis never, it is bend the knee or die, and robb knows this by his mother... So in what scenario you want to aid stannis taking KL?

[Fish Swim]

Edmure was not at fault. Robb screwed up. If he had a plan beyond "hold Riverrun" (which I doubt) he should have articulated it better.

Agreed. I, too, very much doubt Robb and the Blackfish had this grand plan in place before the Fords. If they had, even if Robb for some reason didn't want to tell Edmure the entire plan, he still at least should have taken three extra seconds to say "don't engage the Lannisters."

Also, a good general knows his commanders. Edmure had shown earlier that "he would try to defend every inch of his soil, to defend every man, woman and child who named him lord", so Robb ought to have realised that Edmure wasn't just going to sit on his hands if the Lannisters got within spitting distance of Riverrun unless he had a bloody good reason to - such as a direct order not to engage. "Hold Riverrun kthnxbi" just doesn't cut it.

[JonathanTheBold]

Agreed. I, too, very much doubt Robb and the Blackfish had this grand plan in place before the Fords. If they had, even if Robb for some reason didn't want to tell Edmure the entire plan, he still at least should have taken three extra seconds to say "don't engage the Lannisters."

Also, a good general knows his commanders. Edmure had shown earlier that "he would try to defend every inch of his soil, to defend every man, woman and child who named him lord", so Robb ought to have realised that Edmure wasn't just going to sit on his hands if the Lannisters got within spitting distance of Riverrun unless he had a bloody good reason to - such as a direct order not to engage. "Hold Riverrun kthnxbi" just doesn't cut it.

Are u unfamiliar with ranks and why military organizations have them. Not to mention Edmure is a grown man should the boy have held his hand and told him every little thing he plans to do. My point is Edmure was told to do something and he didn't do it

[Erkan12]

Edmure is the kind of guy that lets thw smallfolk in the castle when they're under attack. He's simply a really nice person who won't blame others for anything.

Yes but that doesn't mean he fucked up in field. First he captured by Kingslayer, then (even Cat said he shouldn't) he attacked Lannisters again, he persuade Robb for sending the river lords their locations after that he gather river lords and attack Tywin. Robb and Blackfish didn't even know he has battle force because of that.

Blackfish has no reason for blaming his own nephew unless it is the truth.

He sure is a good person, cares the smallfolk but also he is incompetent.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I don't know, I guess some people are fans of Edmure? Never would have thought it, I always felt he came across as a dildo who ballsed up the war. We see his actions through Cat's POV, but I recall her take on it being that Edmure wanted to grab some glory for himself. He comes off better in ADWD, I think, having been chastened by his experiences.

As others have mentioned, in the military, you follow orders. Lord or no, he's outranked by Robb and that's all there is to it. There might be a point to be made here if Edmure's moves had been better than Robb's, militarily speaking, but they clearly weren't. Robb had a super-sweet plan and Edmure shit the bed. What a plonker.

Also: I'm not sure whether Robb knew Stannis's movements before he set out, but I thought the whole point of his plan was to lure Tywin into the westerlands. Then they could fuck with him as they liked while leaving King's Landing weaker for either Renly or Stannis.