Battle of the ford: Robbs reaction.

[E-Ro]

The orders do not come into this. Edmure never justified his actions saying that he was only following orders - he was acting outside of his orders. The order was to hold riverrun and Riverun never came under threat. Riverrun was never threatened by Tywin - he was just going home. Edmure did what he thought was best - this backfired but this is clearly on Edmure. If he thought he was following Robb's orders when he engaged Tywin - then I would have sympathized with him, but this was not about orders since the orders were to hold riverrun and riverrun was never attacked(or under threat of an attack). This was about Edmure taking initiative and it backfired. When a subordinate in an army takes initiative and it helps the cause then he gets credit but if it backfires then he should be ready to get the blame as well.

Common brah, Robb could have said "don't oppose tywin" or "don't move any troops" and demure wouldn't have prevented him from crossing. Then Robb would be far more credible in my eyes. Hold riverrun can be interpreted in many ways, and it isn't edmures fault for not being a mind reader.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

War is about risk - any plan can backfire. This does not mean you dont make plans and strategies which might mess up. And as for the bolded part - I already addressed that - Robb would end up facing no enemies since Stannis and Tywin would be forced to fight each other while Robb grew stronger. If Robb has successfully trapped Tywin in the west and Stannis takes KL - they would have to fight each other since neither can make peace with the other.

It was a good plan - could it backfire on Robb?? Yes of course(Tywin might have caught upto him or something) but all plans have inherent risks and something you just have to throw the dice.

I really dont see how theres going to be a priority in stannis to fight tywin before robb. At this point tywin would be a rebel lord and robb a man who wants to take half of your realm as king...robb is now the real enemy.

[Barty]

Common brah, Robb could have said "don't oppose tywin" or "don't move any troops" and demure wouldn't have prevented him from crossing. Then Robb would be far more credible in my eyes. Hold riverrun can be interpreted in many ways, and it isn't edmures fault for not being a mind reader.

True - I've always held that the orders could be clearer. But this was war time and the plan was made when Robb was in the west(Like I've already stated - Stannis takes over Renly's army right around the time Robb wins at Oxcross and it is only then that the plan can be formed) and sending such sensitive information via raven or rider is probably not a good idea if you are in enemy territory.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

I would hate to break this to you, but he did hold riverrun. The castle didn't fall.

I hate to break this to you, but he left Riverrun. He wasn't holding it when he fought the Battle of the Fords, he was holding his member, waving it at Gregor Clegane and yelling about how big it was. That's not holding Riverrun. That's being a vain, glory-hunting moron who defied orders. Followed by admission of failing his liege lord, and not defending himself with "b-b-b-but Riverrun was saved by proxy battles!".

[The Frosted King]

Of fucking course he needed clear orders. No matter the quality of ones subordinates every field leader not in overall command needs clear consice orders. It's is a basic thing and a massive mistake on Robb's part for not being clearer.

I can't beleive the things said to absolve little Robby of all his mistakes, so now leaders shouldn't give clear orders. Yeah ok, right, in no universe does that make any sense at all.

Face it, Robb was good, but he fucked up with this. The blame is on him, no one else.

Why is it clear what needs to happen when Robert tells Stannis, or Tywin tells Tyrion, but not when Robb tells Edmure?

All these guys receive the same order, but only one mucks it up, and you want to blame his commander?

Fact, Edmure is a guy who throughout the story has proven himself to be prone to shortsighted decisions.

He means well, but that doesn't absolve him of his culpability.

This imo is just his most damning blunder in a run of them.

[E-Ro]

Common brah, Robb could have said "don't oppose tywin" or "don't move any troops" and demure wouldn't have prevented him from crossing. Then Robb would be far more credible in my eyes. Hold riverrun can be interpreted in many ways, and it isn't edmures fault for not being a mind reader.

Supposed to say edmure not demure, in case that wasn't clear. Having the same phone posting issues as minstral.

[Erkan12]

No one is in a position to blame King Robb. If he thinks he was in the right he is not going to back down.

Everyone blamed him about Jeyne. And he accept his fault about sending Theon.

Blackfish told Cat, Robb should never let river lords go to their positon. (On Edmure's insistence).

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Why is it clear what needs to happen when Robert tells Stannis, or Tywin tells Tyrion, but not when Robb tells Edmure?

All these guys receive the same order, but only one mucks it up, and you want to blame his commander?

Fact, Edmure is a guy who throughout the story has proven himself to be prone to shortsighted decisions.

He means well, but that doesn't absolve him of his culpability.

This imo is just his most damning blunder in a run of them.

without knowing about the tyrells, letting tywin come back west and build back his power is a really dumb choice!!! Neither robb nor edmure knew tyrells were going to save tywins ass in KL!!!

[Barty]

I really dont see how theres going to be a priority in stannis to fight tywin before robb. At this point tywin would be a rebel lord and robb a man who wants to take half of your realm as king...robb is now the real enemy.

Tywin is a priority over Robb any day. Stannis has just killed Tywin's children and grandchild - A peace is out. And look at the map of the seven Kingdoms - Stannis cannot afford to march North into the riverlands while Tywin is still alive and ready to take KL(remember Tywin will still continue to fight in the name of Tommen or Myrcella - both of whom are alive and were not in KL when Stannis attacked). Also Robb's image as a boy helps - Every man in the seven Kingdoms is afraid of Tywin(who is rightly considered to be extremely dangerous) and would want to put him down first if given such a choice.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

without knowing about the tyrells, letting tywin come back west and build back his power is a really dumb choice!!! Neither robb nor edmure knew tyrells were going to save tywins ass in KL!!!

I think that not only from reader's perspective it was very clear that the Tyrells wouldn't want the man that they nearly starved to death ruling over them, especially once they declared for Renly over him.

[E-Ro]

Why is it clear what needs to happen when Robert tells Stannis, or Tywin tells Tyrion, but not when Robb tells Edmure?

All these guys receive the same order, but only one mucks it up, and you want to blame his commander?

Fact, Edmure is a guy who throughout the story has proven himself to be prone to shortsighted decisions.

He means well, but that doesn't absolve him of his culpability.

This imo is just his most damning blunder in a run of them.

Because none of the guys you listed had the means or capacity to go and directly oppose the enemy like edmure did they could not project force they were contained. Edmure wasnt. Furthermore we don't know exactly what orders stannis was given at se, but I bet it was allot more direct then "hold storms end"

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Everyone blamed him about Jeyne. And he accept his fault about sending Theon.

Blackfish told Cat, Robb should never let river lords go to their positon. (On Edmure's insistence).

He was told before he sent Theon by Cat not to send Theon. He did anyway.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Tywin is a priority over Robb any day. Stannis has just killed Tywin's children and grandchild - A peace is out. And look at the map of the seven Kingdoms - Stannis cannot afford to march North into the riverlands while Tywin is still alive and ready to take KL(remember Tywin will still continue to fight in the name of Tommen or Myrcella - both of whom are alive and were not in KL when Stannis attacked). Also Robb's image as a boy helps - Every man in the seven Kingdoms is afraid of Tywin(who is rightly considered to be extremely dangerous) and would want to put him down first if given such a choice.

tywin is a practical man, whats the point of keep fighting without a king? You can notice that by the fact he was coming back to westerlands and letting joff,tom,myr,tyr,cers in hands of stannis without giving a fight! Robb in the other hand wants part of stannis kingdom for himself. Theres no room to negotiate under this conditions.

[The Frosted King]

without knowing about the tyrells, letting tywin come back west and build back his power is a really dumb choice!!! Neither robb nor edmure knew tyrells were going to save tywins ass in KL!!!

As long as Tywin is in the riverlands, they can't build up their own power though.

He's slaughtering their people and prohibits the consolidation of riverland power due to his central location.

And Tywin being away from the capital is best, since atm he's the only supporter of Joffrey.

Keep him away, and their fall becomes more inevitable.

[Barty]

without knowing about the tyrells, letting tywin come back west and build back his power is a really dumb choice!!! Neither robb nor edmure knew tyrells were going to save tywins ass in KL!!!

It is not Edmure's place to make such decisions about general strategy without consulting his King. And stop trying to pretend that Edmure was following orders(which he was not - since he knew Riverrun was not under threat) or he was trying to help save Robb's ass or he was trying to stop Tywin from going home and building his power. Edmure states his motivations for attacking Tywin and they were nothing more than indignation over the fact that Tywin was crossing Tully lands mixed with glory hunting.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Because none of the guys you listed had the means or capacity to go and directly oppose the enemy like edmure did they could not project force they were contained. Edmure wasnt. Furthermore we don't know exactly what orders stannis was given at se, but I bet it was allot more direct then "hold storms end"

Its kind of laughable. At the time Edmure had more men than Robb did and had a better chance to actually beat Tywin,once and for all, and yet he's meant to sit on his ass and let the 20,000 go back and join up with any other Lannister forces still in the West and take on Robbs 6,000.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I think that not only from reader's perspective it was very clear that the Tyrells wouldn't want the man that they nearly starved to death ruling over them, especially once they declared for Renly over him.

why? He pardoned his own storm lands bannermen for declaring for Renly, and half of the houses of the reach... Why he wouldnt do the same with tyrells?

[Barty]

tywin is a practical man, whats the point of keep fighting without a king? You can notice that by the fact he was coming back to westerlands and letting joff,tom,myr,tyr,cers in hands of stannis without giving a fight! Robb in the other hand wants part of stannis kingdom for himself. Theres no room to negotiate under this conditions.

Did you even read my post?? There is a King and for that matter a Queen - Tommen and Myrcella are both alive(Tommen was sent to Rosby and Myrcella to Dorne). Tywin is not giving up if his grandchild is still alive. Also Tywin is too proud to bend the knee to the man who just killed his family and Stannis is no fool to let a snake like Tywin Lannister stay alive and powerful if he becomes King.

[The Frosted King]

Because none of the guys you listed had the means or capacity to go and directly oppose the enemy like edmure did they could not project force they were contained. Edmure wasnt. Furthermore we don't know exactly what orders stannis was given at se, but I bet it was allot more direct then "hold storms end"

Who's to say Stannis couldn't pull reserve men from loyal castles to meet the Tyrells before they invested Storms End?

And Stannis himself says what his orders were, and what he did.

[The Frosted King]

Its kind of laughable. At the time Edmure had more men than Robb did and had a better chance to actually beat Tywin,once and for all, and yet he's meant to sit on his ass and let the 20,000 go back and join up with any other Lannister forces still in the West and take on Robbs 6,000.

Yes, if it meant the source of mayhem and murder are leaving their lands.

And frankly again, he had his orders, and disobeyed them. In movies and most books it normally works, but when it doesn't, its ugly.