Shae

[Buckwheat]

So Tyrions problem is all his. It has no connection to upbringing. His self esteem issues are all in his head. Poor delusional man! Issues with women? Yah most likely he should of been a maester. Oh that's right daddy wouldn't have allowed that.

Never marry below your station it reflects badly on House Lannister. Do not seek love, you'll only embarrass yourself.

What should Tyrion do in your estimation? I want to here your happy ending for Tyrion. Please enlighten us.

Tyrion never suggested he would like to be a maester. If he would have, I can see Tywin being very happy about it actually, since Tyrion would have to set aside his family name and so Tywin would not have to be associated with him anymore. Might be you are mixing them up with the Tarlys. (I think Tyrion would not want to become a maester because he would have to give up girls then, though).

Never marry below your station? Tywin would have been happy to marry him to Lollys Stokeworth, WAY below the station.

And, yes, do not seek love. None of the nobles are supposed to, Tyrion is no exception in this.

The man is being framed for murder. So he should just be a good boy and die? I wasn't aware of any contract.

I never said he should go die. Jaime just showed him the perfect solution: go bord that ship for Essos. Do not, you know, go directly into your father's bedroom before that and try to murder him and anybody else possibly in there, since you might not succeed.

Re: contract: reread the passage when Tyrion and Shae first meet. He will pay her and keep her safe. She will act like his lady, she will clean his clothes, have sex with him, pretend she likes him, mourn him if he dies. That was the contract.

[direwienerdog]

Well done, and with that you're a shoo-in for this week's most absurd straw man competition.

That's on topic and you win the most vague and irritating award. What is absurd about being frame for murder?

[nirolo]

Do you really think she had a choice? I might be misdirected by show-Shae, but still. When Tyrion was put on trial, his secret forays would've definitely surfaced - at least enough for his father to find. And Tywin did warn him not to bring her to the capital. So what does he do? He decides to give Tyrion another sharp lesson - by forcing Shae to testify against him. "No woman would love you for anything else but your money."

And Shae? Well, she is a whore. It's what she has been doing all her life. And she wanted to live. So it's not exactly a surprise that she agreed both to testify against Tyrion and then sleep with Tywin.

Shae did a little more than just testifying against Tyrion. Here is a list of the charges she laid across Tyrion's feet:

1. He killed Joffrey.

2. He planned on killing the Queen.

3. He planned on killing the Hand.

4. He planned on killing Tommen.

5. He planned on usurping the throne.

6. He got her husband killed.

7. He raped her and made her do terrible things.

Bit of an overkill, don't you agree? This, to me, indicates that she was more than willing to condemn Tyion to death. The most telling part of her willingness in all this is the giant of Lannister part, of course. She could have kept it a secret had she wanted since it was an intimate info between her and Tyrion (and maybe Varys), but revealing it would give her testimony credibility. A nail in the coffin, if you will.

Shae is an opportunist. I don't blame her for that. But the world is certainly no worse without her.

[TheCrannogDweller]

So Tyrions problem is all his. It has no connection to upbringing. His self esteem issues are all in his head. Poor delusional man! Issues with women? Yah most likely he should of been a maester. Oh that's right daddy wouldn't have allowed that.

Never marry below your station it reflects badly on House Lannister. Do not seek love, you'll only embarrass yourself.

What should Tyrion do in your estimation? I want to here your happy ending for Tyrion. Please enlighten us.

I am constantly amazed by the blindness people can exhibit towards their favourites' flaws.

This thread is about Shae, not Tyrion. And not every character gets a happy ending - especially in a story like ASOIAF.

?

ummm....the mountain? Ramsey? Rorge? Biter? Vargo? Walder Frey? Euron? Lysa? Littlefinger? Some people do deserve to die.

Death is easy. Anyone can summon the courage to die. And some of those might even become martyrs because of their deaths.

Do you think that Ramsay and the Mountain deserve death? That would be too easy a way out for them.

Shae did a little more than just testifying against Tyrion. Here is a list of the charges she laid across Tyrion's feed...

Well, once Cersei had her up to testify against Tyrion, does it really matter how far she went? I would imagine that laying all those charges at his feet was Cersei's price for not killing her.

[Buckwheat]

Love does strange things to people. Does it always turn them into murderers. No.

But some have and have been found innocent by reason of insanity. Like I said Love is the most powerful of emotions.

It is not love that made him kill her. It was his lust for vengeance.

And although I know very little of law, I doubt they would be found innocent, they would probably just not be convicted. But even if they were, Tyrion is not insane or lacking reason, he is quite intelligent and has a moral compass. So that definitely does not apply to him.

[direwienerdog]

Tyrion never suggested he would like to be a maester. If he would have, I can see Tywin being very happy about it actually, since Tyrion would have to set aside his family name and so Tywin would not have to be associated with him anymore. Might be you are mixing them up with the Tarlys. (I think Tyrion would not want to become a maester because he would have to give up girls then, though).

Never marry below your station? Tywin would have been happy to marry him to Lollys Stokeworth, WAY below the station.

And, yes, do not seek love. None of the nobles are supposed to, Tyrion is no exception in this.

You mean give up girls like Grand Maester Pycele? Don't seek love even if you have no chance at a match. Don't seek love because your family will take you to there loving bosum?

I never said he should go die. Jaime just showed him the perfect solution: go bord that ship for Essos. Do not, you know, go directly into your father's bedroom before that and try to murder him and anybody else possibly in there, since you might not succeed.

Re: contract: reread the passage when Tyrion and Shae first meet. He will pay her and keep her safe. She will act like his lady, she will clean his clothes, have sex with him, pretend she likes him, mourn him if he dies. That was the contract.

[nirolo]

Well, once Cersei had her up to testify against Tyrion, does it really matter how far she went? I would imagine that laying all those charges at his feet was Cersei's price for not killing her.

Could be. It still makes one wonder whether or not Shae willingly revealed that she called Tyrion a giant. Knowing the type of opportunist that she is, it wouldn't surprise me if she gave up that info freely.

And yes, it does matter how far she went, because it shows what type of person she is. Someone who would kick a dying man is not worthy of my sympathy that is all.

ETA: Not to mention she kicked a dying man who actually treated her well.

[Buckwheat]

Please do not insert your words in my quotation.

direwienerdog

You mean give up girls like Grand Maester Pycele? Don't seek love even if you have no chance at a match. Don't seek love because your family will take you to there loving bosum?

True, he could have done as Pycelle. And he did not. We do not know why he did not become a maester, because this option is never mentioned. But saying Tywin did not allow it is simply not true.

I do not understand what you mean with the seeking love part. All the marriages in Westeros are contracts made by families. There is no love involved.

[direwienerdog]

It is not love that made him kill her. It was his lust for vengeance.

And although I know very little of law, I doubt they would be found innocent, they would probably just not be convicted. But even if they were, Tyrion is not insane or lacking reason, he is quite intelligent and has a moral compass. So that definitely does not apply to him.

Well according to most here he has no morals at all. I'm always surprised when we put our RL morality into a middle ages story line. It is a thread about Shae, but there is no story of Shae without Tyrions story. If he doesn't find Shae there in the bed chamber, I doubt he seeks her out. She is in the wrong place.

Now someone please explain to me what a swell guy Tywin is.

[Sansa_Stark]

Not all maesters live in big cities with brothels all around. Tyrion loved prostitues way too much to be stationed in a small castle with little women or wealth.

[direwienerdog]

Please do not insert your words in my quotation.

direwienerdog

True, he could have done as Pycelle. And he did not. We do not know why he did not become a maester, because this option is never mentioned. But saying Tywin did not allow it is simply not true.

I do not understand what you mean with the seeking love part. All the marriages in Westeros are contracts made by families. There is no love involved.

Sorry you didn't read Dunk and Egg? I think there is mention in that story of marrying for love. Egg himself marries for love as does his son.

[Buckwheat]

Well according to most here he has no morals at all. I'm always surprised when we put our RL morality into a middle ages story line. It is a thread about Shae, but there is no story of Shae without Tyrions story. If he doesn't find Shae there in the bed chamber, I doubt he seeks her out. She is in the wrong place.

Now someone please explain to me what a swell guy Tywin is.

I never said he has no morals at all. He did stop the beating of Sansa and made an end to Joffrey's torture of her after they were married. He gave Jon advice and he helped Brandon by designing a saddle. He felt sorry for Lancel once Cersei ends the game with him. Yes, he has morals. This is why he should also be moral and rational enough to realise killing somebody just because they did what they had to to survive should not be done if he can avoid it.

I am not sure what this has to do with putting my own morality into the storyline, and I never argued that we should not discuss Tyrion in this thread, so I am not sure who you are arguing here with.

And ... he is the one in the wrong place. His place at that point was aboard that ship for Essos, plain and simple. How is she in the wrong place? She is where she works, in the bed of some man. It is not important for her what man that is.

About the swell guy, again, not sure why you are asking that because nobody argued that he was.

[Buckwheat]

Sorry you didn't read Dunk and Egg? I think there is mention in that story of marrying for love. Egg himself marries for love as does his son.

Nope, have to do it some time.

I am sure there are instances of marriage for love in the main series too. But this is definitely not something that a noble should expect from their life. Some instances that occur should not make Tyrion think it will happen to him also, he is way too smart for that.

[direwienerdog]

Tyrion removed the most powerful man in Westeros also the one who caused him the most pain. With Tywin removed his chance at survival goes up exponentially. Cersci is all he has to deal with now, not the cunning and morally bankrupt Tywin.

[direwienerdog]

Tyrion is too smart to expect happiness, does that mean he shouldn't seek it?

[Buckwheat]

Tyrion removed the most powerful man in Westeros also the one who caused him the most pain. With Tywin removed his chance at survival goes up exponentially. Cersci is all he has to deal with now, not the cunning and morally bankrupt Tywin.

What in seven hells are you arguing?

His chances of survival would be the best without the trip to Tywin's bedchamber, plain and simple.

Tyrion is too smart to expect happiness, does that mean he shouldn't seek it?

No, it just means he should seek it where he can reach it.

[Humbler_than_anyone]

All right so in real life she didn't deserve to die obviously! Objectively Imo nobody deserves to die of another human's hand when it's not for defense but that's for moral question in real life, when someone is actually dead after a cuckold kills his wife and her lover.

But when we read or watch fiction we connect with characters, we love and hate with them. And I killed with Tyrion. Book Shae was a horrible woman and of course Tyrion should have known better but he didn't because all he ever wanted was to be loved and we want to believe the things we want the most. She knew about his issues and she betrayed him anyway in every possible way so when he tightened this chain around her throat and afterwards shot his father in the guts I was right with him. Not in a cheery way because it didn't feel like Tyrion winning anything but in a "things that had to be done way" because otherwise I'd gone insane over all this wrongfulness.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I think Tyrion was looking for a new Tysha and for a time he thought Shae would love him, he got disappointed and broken heart, plus, she humiliated him in front of the court.

It's not an excuse that she is young and a whore, Tyrion always give her comfort and she was living in the red keep as a lady in wait, I mean, who would do that for her besides Tyrion? She was ungreatful and I think she deserved to die

[darthxaos]

Both.

This.

[Kipor]

I will ask for forgiveness if it seems like I’m ignoring other posts, but I just wanted to put this in here.

I always find it very funny when people discuss Tyrion’s and Shae’s relationship.

She testified against him knowing that it would get him killed. She said more than she had to say, which humiliated him (a fact, exemplified by the “giant of Lannister”), and she was going to get profit out of it (a fact, given by Cersei recalling her asking for the payment later).

We also know that Tyrion personally executed her later, motivated by revenge (hands of gold are always cold, yadda yadda)

Tell me: How is he worse than her when he simply killed her, while she humiliated him and left him for (what she thought was) certain death?

Understand what I mean? Ok, then let’s go to see why I do not consider Tyrion wrong in killing her and why I consider her deserving of dying by his hands.

I’m gonna use that already since the “rape” topic has already been brought here. Rape is one of the greatest crimes one can commit to another. And I believe we can agree here that one of the greatest factors that make it so bad is the humiliation the victim suffers from it. After all, the trauma from rape is at least partly caused by that humiliation. Can we agree here? Good.

Now, I will not say that a rapist deserves to be killed by, say, the government. No, he should be keep in prison and pay his sentence. But, at the same time, I can’t condemn a victim who decides to enact vengeance on him in whatever way it may wish, as long as it doesn’t involve others. I simply can’t tell a woman who killed her rapist that “hey, you should have let him live”. That would be simply me being an asshole. I would condemn her if she went out of her way to hurt his family, but the rapist itself? No, never.

That’s also why I cannot condemn Tyrion. Step out of your shoes for a minute and look at what happened to him there; the humiliation he suffered is very close to that of a raped person – hell, he was even called a rapist himself! I would feel the desire to kill someone who did something like that to me – even more if I loved her, since yes, love makes a betrayal much worse – and unless I calmed myself like a boss and gained a great deal of self-control, I could very well actually do it. And I doubt there would be many who would do different. The desire for revenge is something that all humans have. People can say that they would do different, but if there’s one thing I know in this world is that what one says and what one does are two very different things.

Also, some may say “Shae was forced!”. I may be wrong, but I don’t recall a point where it’s said that she was forced to do that; if there is, please, post a quote. Also, even if she was forced, she still had many choices. She could insist on not doing anything, or choose to flee the city. Even when confessing, she could choose what tell and what to keep secret. Furthermore, she doesn’t seem to regret anything of that by what we see of her latter. So, no, she was not completely force. They may have threatened her, but in a very large part, she did so because she wanted.

I by no means want to say that Tyrion is some kind of saint or that she is some devil, or succubus, or whatever. But the amount of forgiveness and excuses people give to some pretty amoral female characters like Shae, Cersei, Lysa and some others… it fells like a great deal of feminism many times, and it annoys so much. It’s like some women came to despise machismo so much that they became a version of that monster, and some are on this forums. Of course, don’t take it the wrong way. There are many women here who are very smart and great on discussions, making good points with ease and making good arguments. It’s just that some times all of this get’s pretty annoying. Listening to people making excuses for Shae, Cersei and Lysa for me is like listening to someone telling me that Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow or Gregor Clegane are good guys.

Well, I went a little off topic and I apologize for that, but… were we go. See ya!