Show us that Aegon VI is really Aegon

[Crowford]

This question isn't directed specifically at you, more in general, but I'm using your post as it touches on an often used criticism of Aegon being fAegon: that the reveal was shocking and another reveal is lazy.

After all of the reveals in the books, some that were quite shocking for those of us who weren't paying attention to the hints, why is yet another reveal considered lazy? There have been countless reveals in the books. For some of us, we didn't notice anything until the reveal happened and it was a wtf moment. For others of us, we noticed the clues and it was more of a "i knew it!" moment. How is this one different when some readers see it and other readers don't?

You are misreading what I wrote. This is not about how predictable a twist is. It's about piling one twist on top of the last one. That Aegon is still alive was a twist in itself. You can argue about how predictable it was, but surely you would agree that it was less predictable than, say, L+R=J (if that's true). Now going in there and revealing Aegon to be someone else AGAIN is what bugs me. Not the question of how predictable it would be.

[Arya kiddin']

Why is Aegon the real deal? Because he genuinely believes he's the real deal, he looks the part, and there is no one else out there to prove otherwise.

Whether or not it's TRUE, matters far less than if it is BELIEVED. I don't think Martin plans on revealing it one way or the other explicitly. Historically, lost heirs appear somewhat often, but are almost never proven to be the real deal one way or another. It some ways, the enhanced confusion just makes for a better story.

Yes, I agree with you good ser.

I am also of the opinion, that in the end it wouldn't matter whether Aegon is real or fake. He is projected as real, and that might be enough. As readers we may come to know of Varys' plotting, of mummer's dragon and so on, but in-universe characters may not learn so. In that case if (when) the second dance happens and if (when) Dany kills him off, I think she may actually receive hate because of this, and that would be pretty sad. :(

Although ofc she may get all Mad Aerys on them afterwards. :lol:

[Mladen]

Not really. So I missed a detail, but the point was that Rhaegar would've reasonably wanted to have his son out of Westeros in case things went bad in the war against Robert, as they did. How things were organized later on in Essos matters little, the kid was out of danger.

Oh, but it's a big detail. One that is distinction between truth and lie. The thing is Rhaegar never believed that Robert would win the war. No one did. We heard that Rhaegar was planning to make things better after Trident. His first wife and daughter, plus pregnant Lyanna, all of them are left in Westeros, and Aegon was smuggled by none other than Varys? That, honestly, doesn't make much sense to me. Your entire argument makes sense only if Jon was with baby since day 1, but alas, he wasn't.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You forget, the children were in no immediate danger when Aegon was replaced and sent to Essos. It was done as a precautionary measure, in case the worst happened and someone wanted to kill the heir to the IT, not his sister. Nobody expected her to be murdered, along with her mother. As for Elia... she was most likely surprised by the appearance of Gregor and wasn't in the same place as Rhaeneys, so she couldn't protect her, but still defended the little baby in her arms.

Not really. So I missed a detail, but the point was that Rhaegar would've reasonably wanted to have his son out of Westeros in case things went bad in the war against Robert, as they did. How things were organized later on in Essos matters little, the kid was out of danger.

Except that the baby switch happened while the Mountain and Ser Armory Lorch were already scaling the walls of Maegor's Holdfast. Weeks after Rhaegar died and mere minutes before Aegon's face connected to a solid wall.

Yes, I agree with you good ser.

I am also of the opinion, that in the end it wouldn't matter whether Aegon is real or fake. He is projected as real, and that might be enough. As readers we may come to know of Varys' plotting, of mummer's dragon and so on, but in-universe characters may not learn so. In that case if (when) the second dance happens and if (when) Dany kills him off, I think she may actually receive hate because of this, and that would be pretty sad. :(

Although ofc she may get all Mad Aerys on them afterwards. :lol:

:agree:

Who cares whether Aegon is real or not? It would only matter if Varys or Illyrio told and maybe not even then considering their reputation.

Well, at least Varys said so.

[oursisthefury69]

cue the inevitable "he told kevan while he was dying" nonsense comments

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Cue the posters entering in on the 4th page with snark and having not read the previous 3 pages.

[oursisthefury69]

Why is Aegon the real deal? Because he genuinely believes he's the real deal, he looks the part, and there is no one else out there to prove otherwise.

Whether or not it's TRUE, matters far less than if it is BELIEVED. I don't think Martin plans on revealing it one way or the other explicitly. Historically, lost heirs appear somewhat often, but are almost never proven to be the real deal one way or another. It some ways, the enhanced confusion just makes for a better story.

This is the best answer and the only logical one aegon supporters should use, along with the fact that blackfyres are targs in all but name

Isn't it convenient that the face of the babe was dashed in? Almost like it helped the fAegon cause. What would they have done if they babe hadn't been smashed to near unrecognizeable?

They wouldn't have been able to do it, simple as that

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Isn't it convenient that the face of the babe was dashed in? Almost like it helped the fAegon cause. What would they have done if they babe hadn't been smashed to near unrecognizeable?

'

Any time gained would have been beneficial for an escape. The fact that the child's face was dashed in and could not be identified simply allows Aegon to be unveiled to us readers as an unexpected twist since the people in the world believe that he is dead. Lucky coincidence.

[Facebookless Man]

You are misreading what I wrote. This is not about how predictable a twist is. It's about piling one twist on top of the last one. That Aegon is still alive was a twist in itself. You can argue about how predictable it was, but surely you would agree that it was less predictable than, say, L+R=J (if that's true). Now going in there and revealing Aegon to be someone else AGAIN is what bugs me. Not the question of how predictable it would be.

Well put, this is exactly how I feel but you' ve worded it much better. It's crossing the fine line between using plot twists and taking the piss IMO.

[oursisthefury69]

Cue the posters entering in on the 4th page with snark and having not read the previous 3 pages.

cue it indeed, along with the person with the diminishing argument for his side trying to change the subject Sir Snark

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

cue it indeed, along with the person with the diminishing argument for his side trying to change the subject Sir Snark

Yes, I was trying to make this entire thread about your nonsense.

P.S I believe Aegon is fake.

[Gnivil]

I personally think that he's fake (I am open minded, though), although one argument that I've never seen up is that the only important character who was actually there to kill Aegon was The Mountain, and people always say "Why would Elia try to protect some pisswater baby?" And I would say, are we really taking the Mountain's word for the very specifics of a battle, a guy almost constantly in a blood rage and high on Milk of the Poppy? Are we really?

[Facebookless Man]

I don't think it makes much of a difference that gregor smashed the kid's face when every person likely to be able to make the difference between Aegon and a random toddler had died or fled.

[Sigurður Ingi]

Isn't it convenient that the face of the babe was dashed in? Almost like it helped the fAegon cause. What would they have done if they babe hadn't been smashed to near unrecognizeable?

technically it would not matter if child was recognizable or not since that fact would mean that heir was still alive and other child had done it role as substitute,

and what would they have done, they would likelihood send search party to find the heir and if the heir was not found, they would likelihood say that heir had been killed instead of allowing the knowledge of the heir being alive.

[James Arryn]

I personally am on the fence. My preference is probably that he's real, but as long as he 's effective and brings some real action back into the game, I don't mind either way. In fact, his being a BF shouldn't actually change too much. He'd still be somewhere in the claim chain, and that's all that's needed.

Varys' speech is the best proof, and the lying to his little birds strikes me as very weak. They're his little birds precisely because of how much control he has over them, and the degree of vilnerable information he passes through them. I also doubt they'd care about the difference.

I also think the triple blind thing would be slightly bad writing. apple, you raised the Jon Arryn/Lannisters example, but IMO for that to work we'd have to now be doubting it was Lysa. We've already had the pretext and the revelation. This would be the second revelation.

The main reason I can see for him being fake is to dovetail with the D&E books, but I have no sense of how much that is meant to pay off.

The other thing is, this plan has been laid for a loooong time. For a fake, that seems elaborate. The assumption that it would pay off simply because of the investment is belied by the readiness people have to assume the burden of proof is on the proving. Unless there is proof coming, it seems like a lot to put into something people could just say ' show me' to.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Most people believe he is real because GRRM set up the baby swap between Gilly' s baby and the other one.

I still think hes fake there is enough evidence compared to that.

[James Arryn]

Isn't it convenient that the face of the babe was dashed in? Almost like it helped the fAegon cause. What would they have done if they babe hadn't been smashed to near unrecognizeable?

But that's under the assumption that it was always a long-drawn out plan. It might have just been a gambit to get Aegon out of KL or buy enough time to clear out of Westeros. After the head allowed, they could have compiled the plan from there, being able to afford more time and elaboration.

[maidenandwarrior]

I also think the triple blind thing would be slightly bad writing. apple, you raised the Jon Arryn/Lannisters example, but IMO for that to work we'd have to now be doubting it was Lysa. We've already had the pretext and the revelation. This would be the second revelation.

I think that one of the more interesting things that GRRM did with the Lysa-killed-Jon Arryn revelation though is that he saved it until it no longer mattered. We find this out at the end of ASOS, when all the damage from Lysa and Littlefinger's lies are far too big to ever be undone. In many ways it was an anticlimax, which GRRM has done over and over in ASOIAF. Think Drogo's death, Renly's death, Robb's death, ect. All of these characters could have eventually won, and were even set up to seem like conquering heroes, but died before their potential was fully realized. I agree with some previous posters who said that Fake Aegon would not be revealed to be a Blackfyre until it no longer mattered, ie, he's dead.

And to play devil's advocate, the only thing I can think of that might support Fake Aegon being real is when Old Man of the River appears (the giant turtle), and Tyrion thinks, "Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings."

[The guy from the Vale]

And to play devil's advocate, the only thing I can think of that might support Fake Aegon being real is when Old Man of the River appears (the giant turtle), and Tyrion thinks, "Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings."

Tyrion thinks that shortly after finding out about Young Griff's supposed identity though.

[Minsc]

He has to be a fake, why would Elia fight Clegane for a baby that isn't hers

Because she isn't a heartless monster that is just going to watch an innocent baby be murdered?

That not saying that I believe that Aegon is real or not.