Sandor Clegane as AAR

[HoboJed]

I'm personally fond of the idea that multiple people are destined to meet the Azor Ahai prophecy, but this isn't about that. This post is focused on Sandor Clegane as Azor Ahai, regardless of whether you think there is only one AAR or multiple.

Why is this interesting?

So, I thought I would start off with the reason why I find the idea of Sandor as AAR so interesting, and then get on to the gritty detail. Basically, what interests me about this is:

1. We are meant to believe he is dead. (not as an open question like with Jon Snow, but to a casual reader there should be little doubt at this point that he is dead).
   
   
2. The set up for him being AAR happens very late in the story.
   
   
3. He is certainly not what most people have in mind when thinking of "the hero of prophecy".
   
   
4. Despite all this, there are plenty of subtle hints that he could in deed be AAR. Why would GRRM put in a red herring that is harder to see than the actual answer?
   

How does he meet the prophecy (so far)

First of all, a re-cap of the prophecy:

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Now, let us break it down and show how it applies to Sandor:

When the red star bleeds

This part isn't very obvious, but when you realise what it is talking about you can see how it really nicely fits with Sandor. The trick here is that it says "star", but the star we are looking at here is actually a sun. The red "sun" would be Oberyn Martell (The red viper of the house with a sun on its coat of arms). As we know, Oberyn Martell died shortly before Sandor was left to die by Arya. This is particularly important for Sandor, because Oberyn died in a fight which left Gregor Clegane (supposedly) dead. The Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle tells us of the importance of Gregor's death to Sandor. Up until then, his entire life was driven by his desire to kill his brother. So as you can see, unlike with other people who may fulfil the prophecy, the red star bleeding is actually an integral part of Sandor's re-birth, rather than just an incidental event.

and the darkness gathers

This part is a lot more open to interpretation, but could be a reference to Sandor almost dying, his depression, the approach of Rorge's band of outlaws (which ties into the general theme of the Sack of Saltpans being a big part of Sandor's rebirth), Stoneheart's influence taking over the BWB, the others coming, or just general bad times.

Azor Ahai shall be born again

Obviously here we would be talking about spiritual rebirth. This is the death of "The Hound", and the rebirth of Sandor.

amidst smoke and salt

This I think would be a reference to the smoke from Saltpans as it was ransacked by Rorge and Biter, et al.. This is quite symbolic, as not only was he nearby (probably on the Quite Isle at that point), but most people believe he was responsible for its destruction. I suspect Sandor saw the whole thing from the Quiet Isle, and is saddened by the thought that people would so easily believe that it was his work.

to wake dragons out of stone

I will get to this bit later...

What other evidence is there?

Lets go back to Sandor's childhood. We all know how he was disfigured, but is there deeper meaning to this than we suspect? Azor Ahai is the god of fire (among other things), so what if by being held above the fire was effectively a baptism in the eyes R'hllor? This incident has also left Sandor with a great fear of fire, which is certainly understandable, although for a man with little fear of death, pain or injury it may be hinting at something else as well. What if he can feel the power of R'hllor in the flames, but doesn't understand it? He claims to Sansa that he knows what hell is like.

Lets fast forward to his fight with Beric Dondarrion. This fight was supposedly his judgement by R'hllor, and if that is the case, then R'hllor must want him for some reason as he was clearly guilty of the crimes that were set against him. He won the fight despite being surrounded by fire, and being attacked by an opponent who had a flaming weapon. What's more, he only a won because Beric's sword (supposedly engulfed in the holy flames of R'hllor) was destroyed. When Arya then says to Sandor "go to hell", Beric says that he already has.

The only reason he even ended up being caught by the BWB was that he fled the Battle of the Blackwater where wildfire was being used. It is almost as though he is being guided by R'hllor through the fire.

What next?

Well, Sandor has yet to fulfil the "wake dragons out of stone" part of the prophecy, so lets have a look at some of the "stones" that he could potentially be tied to if he ever leaves the Quite Isle.

One possibility is Lady Stoneheart. Stone is in her name, and Sandor has already beaten the previous leader of the BWB. That would give a nice mirroring in the story (where he was effectively the bad guy the first time, and the good guy the second) but there isn't really a connection between Sandor and Catelyn, and I feel that story belongs more to Jaime and Brienne.

Another possibility is Sansa. She is currently going by the name Alayne Stone, and there certainly is a lot of connection between Sandor and Sansa. It isn't outside the realms of possibility that he will become her shining knight that saves her from Littlefinger's schemes.

However, I feel that the most obvious "stone" would be his brother "the mountain". Not only is Gregor's nickname evocative of stone, but he also appeared as stone in Bran's dream. So what business could Sandor have with Gregor? Why, what he always wanted, of course... to kill him! However, if we are to believe that Sandor has truly been reborn, then we should expect that he would not longer want to kill his brother out of anger. Instead, I suspect he will want to kill him to put him to rest (this is important in my belief that there will be an AAR for each of The Seven, as it makes Sandor The Stranger).

Why would Sandor end up fighting unGregor in the first place? As The Seven's champion against Cersei (who obviously chooses Robert Strong as her own champion) in her trial by combat. The beauty of this is that it would also make Sandor the Valonqar. Cersei would literally have been sentenced to death by the "little brother" of her champion. Sure he won't literally strangle Cersei, but she isn't going to literally drown on her own tears either.

How does killing unGregor wake "dragons"? I suspect that is something beyond speculation right now, and I won't lie and try and claim I have the answers, because I don't.

Well, there it is. I hope you enjoyed reading this, even if you don't agree that Sandor could be AAR (or least one of multiple AARs). I have done a lot of thinking about this and just wanted to share my thoughts. If you've got anything else to add to this, then please comment. :)

[Mr Hodor]

Good. I hadnt seen a new AAR for years now.

Too many speculations but atleast very well written.

[Lord of Dragonstone]

It's seems a very solid possibility (I'm not a huge fan of Oberyn being the red star that bleeds, though) however while it would be good in the sense of it coming out of left field, I feel like AAR should be someone we are able to connect to more. If the Hound does end up being AAR then I would expect a lot more happening with him(perhaps even as a POV character?) in the next two books before it's revealed.

[HoboJed]

Good. I hadnt seen a new AAR for years now.

Too many speculations but atleast very well written.

I openly admit that this is very speculative. :) Still, I thought I would post my ideas in case they struck a chord with anyone.

[Blueberry Stark]

Honestly, I looked at the titled and thought, "this nonsense should be funny" so I read it. Although I'm hardly convinced, your theory is well thought out and interesting. I agree with Dragonstone about Oberyn though. It's hard to pinpoint why, but I don't see the Martell sigil as being the answer to that part of the prophecy. Also, I appreciate that you don't try to force your theory. When you get to a point that you don't have an answer, how Gregor is going to wake dragons, you admit that you don't have the answer. Nice work, and I wish I had something more useful to contribute ( I have no imagination when it comes comes to to the prophecy stuff in the books).

Why do you think that their will be 7 AAs when the Seven and R'hllorism don't seem to have much in common. Also, who do you think are the other six AAs, and to which aspect of the Seven do each of these characters correspond??

[Rhymes with Weak]

The irony would be that he is terrified of fire.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Nicely written

I really feel that Sandor is alive, the gravedigger just fits too well (that's also what makes me hold back, I worry I am surcumbing to wishful thinking)

"Robert Strong" supports Sandor being alive, IMO

They're are like different sides of the same coin and their duality is striking. I feel like we would be missing out if they don't get a chance to face off.

If they don't in the books thats what great about imagination, they can sort it out in our minds

I'm not sold that he is AAR but you make a pretty good case. They are set up to be at least champions on opposite sides of dark/ice and light/fire

That is if they are who we thought they were.

[HoboJed]

Why do you think that their will be 7 AAs when the Seven and R'hllorism don't seem to have much in common. Also, who do you think are the other six AAs, and to which aspect of the Seven do each of these characters correspond??

R'hllor and The Seven do have little in common at first glance, and the idea of them being the same came from other ideas I had and then solidified from there.

Basically I began noticing that there were two quite strong themes in characters: those who matched the appearance of one of The Seven, but stood against their aspect's core value (what I call the false Seven); and those who lost what made them an example of one of The Seven, but that loss made them fit the core value of that aspect (which I call the true Seven). I will point out that while I have fleshed this theory out quite a bit, it is still incomplete. However, it is to be expected as I see this as an overarching theme, too big to set up in one book.

After making that split I started to notice that a few of the characters I had placed in the true Seven were possible AAR candidates, and that is when I started putting the two ideas together.

As for how the two faiths are similar, you have to look deep into the symbology of The Seven. Why are there seven aspects of the god? It is possible it relates to the Seven Kingdoms, but I think we are given a very big hint to the real reason. Crystals are shown to be a very important symbol in The Faith of The Seven, and the reason for that is because of their ability to refract light into seven different colours. That's right, light is the god (R'hllor), and the seven colours are his aspects.

I admit that this is all fairly crackpot, but I came up with most of it near the start of aSoS, and further reading has just helped solidify my ideas. I doubt I will get many converts to my ideas, but seeing how they develop has been a big part of my enjoyment of the books. :)

As for other AAR's I have at the moment... There is Dany (The Mother who lost her ability to carry children), Jaime (The Warrior who lost his ability to fight), Jon (The Father who gave up his chance to have children)... the rest is a bit shakier, but has either Brienne or Sansa as The Maiden (really need to see what happens next here, as neither has given up their maidenhood), possibly Gendry as The Smith (although I suspect he may turn out to be the false Smith, and the real Smith will turn out to be a non-smith, which is heavily hinted at several times in the books)... That leaves The Crone which is a tough one. I suspect Mellisandre is the false Crone, and I want to think Bran is the true one, but it is hard to make him fit the pattern.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

You can basically find evidence for AAR for almost every character in the series, hence why I think its either no one, or GRRM won't reveal who it is.

[Gneisenau]

Do you think the "smoke and salt" will involve a ham, like what Renly said on the TV show ?

[HoboJed]

You can basically find evidence for AAR for almost every character in the series, hence why I think its either no one, or GRRM won't reveal who it is.

I agree, except that, as I already stated, I also think it is possible that there will be many AAR's. In fact, a likely possibility will be that there are multiple AAR's, but it won't be announced in any particular way.

For a start, Dany has clearly already fulfilled the prophecy in a very literal sense, so why should anyone be able to declare that she isn't AAR?

Do you think the "smoke and salt" will involve a ham, like what Renly said on the TV show ?

Not in the case of Sandor. Like I said in my original post, Sandor's "smoke and salt" would be the smoke from the sacking of Saltpans.

However, if you are to believe in multiple AAR's, then there is definitely room for at least one AAR being reborn amongst ham. I know there is at least one person claiming that a ham being present at the table when Jaime spoke with Roose Bolton (on the TV show) is evidence that he is AAR. And there are also those who claim Jon will rise from the dead among the cold stores under the wall where there are plenty of salted and smoked hams hanging.

[MadMikes]

I don't really see it. However I would say that it seems like the kind of thing GRRM would do, to be unconventional, and it would be awesome to have Sandor to be the real hero.

Still, i'm convinced its Jon Snow. He just fits.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Is Sandor a secret Targ too? :eek:

[jenerationx]

For a start, Dany has clearly already fulfilled the prophecy in a very literal sense, so why should anyone be able to declare that she isn't AAR?

Because she hasn't. She's not a warrior, and she doesn't have a flaming sword. The only way this works is if you are assuming that her dragons are Lightbringer, and that is purely speculation. NO ONE in the text has fulfilled ALL the parts of the prophecy that we know.

Second, we don't even know that we've been told the ENTIRE prophecy. We know bits of it, but who says that's the whole thing? Maybe there's a part where you have to tame an Ewok. We simply don't know.

[HoboJed]

Because she hasn't. She's not a warrior, and she doesn't have a flaming sword. The only way this works is if you are assuming that her dragons are Lightbringer, and that is purely speculation. NO ONE in the text has fulfilled ALL the parts of the prophecy that we know.

Okay, let me rephrase... Dany has fulfilled one wording of the prophecy that we have heard. :)

As for the guy who asked if I think Sandor is a secret Targ... please be constructive. This is not about that, so to say that is called creating a strawman, and is considered poor form. You are basically ridiculing me by associating me with something crazy that is unrelated to what I was actually talking about.

edit: oh, and I just want to add that if there is only one AAR, then I personally think it will probably be Jon Snow like many others. I just want to put out alternative ideas that others may not have considered.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

As for the guy who asked if I think Sandor is a secret Targ... please be constructive. This is not about that, so to say that is called creating a strawman, and is considered poor form. You are basically ridiculing me by associating me with something crazy that is unrelated to what I was actually talking about.

Actually no. Since GRRM has said that TPTWP=AAR, Sandor has to be a Targ to be AAR.

[King of Winters]

Even though this would make Sandor 10 times more badass, I have to agree with Jon's Queen Consort. GRRM has said in a video that AAR is the same as TPTWP. So unless Sandor is from Aerys and Rhaella, he's not AAR today.

[Mladen]

Even though this would make Sandor 10 times more badass, I have to agree with Jon's Queen Consort. GRRM has said in a video that AAR is the same as TPTWP. So unless Sandor is from Aerys and Rhaella, he's not AAR today.

He is a badass enough. As JQC and KotS told AAR and PTWP are the same person, and PTWP prophecy talks about individual coming from Aerys/Rhaella line, so that leaves us only with Dany or Jon... Details, people... The devil is in the detail.

[Benjen of the Kingsguard]

Interesting. But the real question: Who would be Nissa Nissa?

The only person I can think of is Sansa.

[jenerationx]

Actually no. Since GRRM has said that TPTWP=AAR, Sandor has to be a Targ to be AAR.

Even though this would make Sandor 10 times more badass, I have to agree with Jon's Queen Consort. GRRM has said in a video that AAR is the same as TPTWP. So unless Sandor is from Aerys and Rhaella, he's not AAR today.

Actually, GRRM has not said TPTWP=AAR. I'll copy and paste from a recent thread that covered this.

I know because when I posted about it in the forums, I was totally flamed. -.-

is the video in question, and his relevant comments start around 6:55. What he says:

GRRM (on Stannis): He is discarding the gods that he has worshipped since childhood, and accepting The Red God and giving himself to the Lord of Light. And in return, Melisandre sees that the Lord of Light gives him a token --

Melisandre: Your sword awaits you.

GRRM: -- of his role as The Prince That Was Promised by ancient prophecy, and that's the sword Lightbringer.

I was convinced that this was a GRRM slip up that indicated TPTWP and AA are the same person, but it was pointed out that Mel has actually does mix them up in the text, indicating that she herself believes AA and TPTWP to be the same person, but this is far from making it concrete, and GRRM has never confirmed one way or another (once you take aside the one person who posted about it falsely). So in the vid, you could say that he's speaking from the POV of Mel, and it is already in the text proper that she at least believes them to be the same, without needing the video. It does not necessarily mean they are the same, especially since Mel is known to make errors. (I actually think they are the same, but we don't actually have concrete proof of this, is my point.)

Interesting. But the real question: Who would be Nissa Nissa?

The only person I can think of is Sansa.

Why does there have to even be a Nissa Nissa? Nothing says that history has to repeat itself with regard to the making of the sword. The sword has already been forged, if it is a literal sword. It doesn't need to be forged again.