Barristan didn't really love Ashara?

[Mladen]

I strongly disagree.

His quote says Ashara only recently came to court. So I doubt it's a matter of several years, especially if she left not long after due to some involvement with one of the Stark Brothers. And there isn't anything in the words of Ser Barristan to suggest he and Ashara were even friends- they certainly could have been though. Especially considering that Barristan observes Ashara's penchant for the "Fire" crowd, and the fact that Ser Barristan is "mud".

One difference I'd say that separates the two romances is that Lyanna knew Robert was, at least vocally and externally, in love with her. Ashara knew nothing of Ser Barristan, so far as we know. And if she did, she did not trust/esteem/like him sufficiently to "turn to" him.

Ashara wasn't at court for years. She was new at court. Barristan Selmy talked about how she was dishonoured by a Stark and he also called her a maid. Being a hot Dornish woman, she likely won't be a maid and she wouldn't feel that the Stark dishonored her. They tumbled in the sheets nothing wrong in that. Selmy didn't know Ashara at all.

Ok, here's quote:

His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

It says that Ashara was one of Elia's companions. It either means that she came with Elia. that was approximately 3-5 years before the Tourney, or she has come somewhere during Elia's presence at court. Then, there is Harrenhal tourney and most likely she return to KL with Elia. All in all, she spent some significant time at court. It wasn't like she was there for a month... Definitely, she was much longer...

Also, we are talking here about Barristan's emotions, not Ashara's. Barristan and Ashara lived at same place for some time, and he talked to her, her brother was his fellow Kingsguard, he even speaks of her smile which means that at least they had some friendly relationship. Nothing too close, but certainly it has been amicable.

As for Ashara being maid, I think Barristan is being chivalrous here. She was young, and nothing on people's faces speak whether someone is a maid or not. I also think that this generalization that all Dornish women are sexually liberated a bit wrong (as I also think that there is no such thing as general Northern honor), so Ashara could very well be maid when she came to King's Landing...

[MotherAnduin]

Nothing in that quote shows conclusively that Ashara spent a significant amount of time in King's Landing. She could well be a month old at court.

Noticing somebody's smile doesn't mean that you know that person. You can notice the smile of a total stranger.

[Blackfyre87]

Ok, here's quote:

It says that Ashara was one of Elia's companions. It either means that she came with Elia. that was approximately 3-5 years before the Tourney, or she has come somewhere during Elia's presence at court. Then, there is Harrenhal tourney and most likely she return to KL with Elia. All in all, she spent some significant time at court. It wasn't like she was there for a month... Definitely, she was much longer...

Also, we are talking here about Barristan's emotions, not Ashara's. Barristan and Ashara lived at same place for some time, and he talked to her, her brother was his fellow Kingsguard, he even speaks of her smile which means that at least they had some friendly relationship. Nothing too close, but certainly it has been amicable.

As for Ashara being maid, I think Barristan is being chivalrous here. She was young, and nothing on people's faces speak whether someone is a maid or not. I also think that this generalization that all Dornish women are sexually liberated a bit wrong (as I also think that there is no such thing as general Northern honor), so Ashara could very well be maid when she came to King's Landing...

No. You are reading meaning into words, and that meanin is simply not present. It says she was "not long at court" and that she was a companion of Elia. In no way does the quote state that Ashara came to KL with Elia at the start of her marriage, or how long that marriage had been in existence (we may know elsewhere the length of that marriage). The only place in which it says she came to court with Elia is in your interpretation. You have extended the words beyond what they actually say, for the purposes of your argument.

And in your reference to Barristan's referencing her smile, again, you have read in meaning- and utilised this meaning in your argument- which is not there in the words. You can see someone smile from a distance. You can see it multiple times. You don't need to be the friend of a woman to know their smile.

Any guy who has liked a girl but has been too shy to say something at the time- and I think near every Heterosexual male could say this about themselves at one point or another- would know that it doesn't take proximity to appreciate the beauty of a beautiful woman's smile.

If you're going to use words to prove a point, the words should say what you are arguing, not what you want them to.

"Maester Aemon wrote by dictating to Samwell" - means Maester Luwin wrote dictating to Samwell.

Not "wrote the letter with a quill", not "wrote the letter in the library of Castle Black", not "wrote the Letter in Black Ink".

[CosimaistheHottest]

No. You are reading meaning into words, and that meanin is simply not present. It says she was "not long at court" and that she was a companion of Elia. In no way does the quote state that Ashara came to KL with Elia at the start of her marriage, or how long that marriage had been in existence (we may know elsewhere the length of that marriage). The only place in which it says she came to court with Elia is in your interpretation. You have extended the words beyond what they actually say, for the purposes of your argument.

Yea I was wondering that too. How does not long at court mean 3-5 years at court? Not long at court probably means exactly what it means. Not long there probably less than a year.

[Mladen]

No. You are reading meaning into words, and that meanin is simply not present. It says she was "not long at court" and that she was a companion of Elia. In no way does the quote state that Ashara came to KL with Elia at the start of her marriage, or how long that marriage had been in existence (we may know elsewhere the length of that marriage). The only place in which it says she came to court with Elia is in your interpretation. You have extended the words beyond what they actually say, for the purposes of your argument.

The word companion is something that we also have in mind. I agree that we can't say that Ashara came with Elia, but we also can't say that Ashara was at court for the brief period of time. As for Elia/Rhaegar marriage, it lasted for 3-5 years. Ashara could simply come in the last year, or anywhere between. We simply can't reject any possibility just because Barristan says it was "not long". She could be even at court for 2 years, and that is a plenty of time.

And in your reference to Barristan's referencing her smile, again, you have read in meaning- and utilised this meaning in your argument- which is not there in the words. You can see someone smile from a distance. You can see it multiple times. You don't need to be the friend of a woman to know their smile.

Yes, they don't have to be friends, but Barristan speaking kindly of her means that the relationship was at least, amicable. They could have been acquaintances only, polite to each other, and nothing more. I specifically said that their relationship wasn't close.

If you're going to use words to prove a point, the words should say what you are arguing, not what you want them to.

Thank you very much. The words are actually saying what I argue.

[WeddinGuest]

To Pikachu101: I think the whole "did he really love her, or was it just infatuation" topic is REALLY subjective. Many people think Robb and Jon were more "infatuated" than in love, too, because they're only 15-16, and certain circumstances lead to their relationships becoming sexual before they were really ready for that, etc. Yes, they both value women for more than their looks, but that might be more a character issue than a love issue. And Robb actually says Jeyne is "bright as well as beautiful", so he does comment on her looks at least once; Jon starts off not finding Ygritte that attractive, but DOES find her beautiful when he actually sees her naked for the first time. (Though granted, it's not like he had much basis for comparison.)

Now, re your other comparisons, Ned has known Cat for almost 15 years at the time of GOT, and of course Jaime has known Cersei his whole life (though they were separated for a number of years when he was off squiring). But even in Jaime's case, it seems he was more in love with an idea of Cersei than the reality; something he seems to realize himself when he says she turned out to have been the Stranger all along.

I think Barristan focusing on Ashara's looks, painting her as a victim of a Stark, etc, shows a penchant for nostalgia toward a lost loved one, that Dany indulges in as well. She looks back on with nostalgia at her time with Drogo, her "sun and stars", but if you read how their marriage started off in GOT, at one point she was so distressed by the circumstances, she wanted to die.

Mladen, ITA about it being unfair to assume EVERY Dornishwoman is sexually liberated the way, say, Arianne is. After all, Doran and Oberyn are QUITE different when it comes to their love lives. Both chose their women for love, but Doran actually married Mellario, tried to make their marriage work, and doesn't seem to have taken a paramour after she left. Whereas Oberyn had a string of lovers before Ellaria, and seems to be in an open relationship with her, in which they go as far as to share lovers, have three (or more) - somes, etc. Just because someone is from a sexually liberated culture, doesn't mean they all act the same way. Irri and Jhiqui have quite the catfight over Rakharo, even though I'm sure Rakharo's had other women; they might have even seen him in action, since Dothraki have sex out in the open; and yet, they are still affected by jealousy. So, just because Ashara was from Dorne doesn't mean she was having sex with anything that moved.

[Ser Duncan Lord Commander]

Say what?

Barristan simply thinks about this along the line of If-Rhaegar-hadn't-eloped-with-Lyanna thread. He wasn't some love-sick young kid and being a man I'm pretty sure there isn't a whole lot wrong with it either. Any how, even if he didn't love her, he would never find out. So let's just leave it as the reminiscing of an old man who is looking back at his life and failiures (He certainly counts her suicide as one). I'm absolutely not sure where that spoiled-by-Stark theory comes from but don't you think Barristan would have had some sort of a vendetta with Eddard if that was the case? Yet we see nothing but respect between the two of them.

[Berkilak]

Methinks a lot of people are trying too hard to define what love is. That being said, if we did have to place a label on it, I'd say this falls well within the definitions of courtly love.

[Meemaw]

Didnt Barristan think that someone dishonored Ashara and she turned to Stark? I dont remember him thinking a Stark dishonored her.

[WeddinGuest]

Somewhat OT, but I interpret Brienne's love for Renly as an interesting gender-inverted version of courtly love as well. Brienne knows her love for Renly is doomed to be unrequited, because he's (1) her King, (2) married to Marg and (3) Gay, (though she doesn't know that at first, she seems to acknowledge it later on, and likely suspected it even before he died). Yet she strives to serve him as a member of his KG, as best she can, is devastated by not just his death, but how she was unable to protect him from it. I suppose you can argue that JonCon's love for his "silver prince" Rhaegar also qualifies. This is another way GRRM "subverts" or at least tweaks common tropes.

Back to the OP: I wonder if that question is influenced by the fact that Selmy never actually had sex with Ashara? (Whereas Jon, Robb, Ned, and Jaime all DID have sex with the women they loved.) I think this whole idea that yes, you can romantically love someone, want to risk your life for them, etc., without actually physically consummating the love, just doesn't make sense to a lot of people in our sex-saturated world. Yet that was the whole point of courtly love. Actually having sex with the queen, or your liege lord's lady, was obviously treasonous, dishonorable, etc. But having chaste courtly love for her was something completely different.

[TheWizard]

Well he is a old man who that we know of is still a virgin. He does not seem the type to have sex without the marriage. If that is true of course all he is gonna think about is her looks.

[Blackfish Tully]

I think it's easy for Barristan to talk about loving Ashara when he knew he couldn't/wouldn't do anything about it. It's how he is with all things. It's easy for him to talk about how he would have killed Robert if he saw him smile at the dead babies, but he heard about it so what's the difference? He still bent the knee and served him faithfully for years. It's easy for him to say now that Viserys had a touch of madness, but Viserys is dead so what's the difference. Barristan frequently goes the coulda, woulda, shoulda route which makes "The Bold" part of his name quite ironic. The loving of Ashara is simply a further illustration to his not-so-bold character.

The thing about him "talking about loving Ashara" and "for him to talk about how he would have killed Robert if he saw him smile at the dead babies" in both of those cases he is thinking about these events in his POV not talking about them . So you are saying that he is lying to himself which I guess is possible but since this is a guy who killed Maelys the monstrous in single combat,single handed stormed a castle to save his King and killed the Titan's bastard with a staff so I'm going to be inclined to believe him when he thinks about something. Also he did not "hear"about Robert smiling over the dead bodies of the kids (that did not happen as far as we know) but he was speculating to himself that if Robert had smiled then he would have tried to kill him.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Say what?

Barristan simply thinks about this along the line of If-Rhaegar-hadn't-eloped-with-Lyanna thread. He wasn't some love-sick young kid and being a man I'm pretty sure there isn't a whole lot wrong with it either. Any how, even if he didn't love her, he would never find out. So let's just leave it as the reminiscing of an old man who is looking back at his life and failiures (He certainly counts her suicide as one). I'm absolutely not sure where that spoiled-by-Stark theory comes from but don't you think Barristan would have had some sort of a vendetta with Eddard if that was the case? Yet we see nothing but respect between the two of them.

The Stark with his wick in the wax was Brandon.

[Djinn]

Barristan is another that should've made the eight before joining the KG. He didn't, and that why he a sexual simpleton.

[Martini Sigil]

What would be intriguing, would be if Lemore was Ashara, and she and Selmy were to cross paths.

[Blackfyre87]

No. You are reading meaning into words, and that meanin is simply not present. It says she was "not long at court" and that she was a companion of Elia. In no way does the quote state that Ashara came to KL with Elia at the start of her marriage, or how long that marriage had been in existence (we may know elsewhere the length of that marriage). The only place in which it says she came to court with Elia is in your interpretation. You have extended the words beyond what they actually say, for the purposes of your argument.

And in your reference to Barristan's referencing her smile, again, you have read in meaning- and utilised this meaning in your argument- which is not there in the words. You can see someone smile from a distance. You can see it multiple times. You don't need to be the friend of a woman to know their smile.

Any guy who has liked a girl but has been too shy to say something at the time- and I think near every Heterosexual male could say this about themselves at one point or another- would know that it doesn't take proximity to appreciate the beauty of a beautiful woman's smile.

If you're going to use words to prove a point, the words should say what you are arguing, not what you want them to.

"Maester Aemon wrote by dictating to Samwell" - means Maester Luwin wrote dictating to Samwell.

Not "wrote the letter with a quill", not "wrote the letter in the library of Castle Black", not "wrote the Letter in Black Ink".

*Maester Aemon

[Blackfyre87]

The word companion is something that we also have in mind. I agree that we can't say that Ashara came with Elia, but we also can't say that Ashara was at court for the brief period of time. As for Elia/Rhaegar marriage, it lasted for 3-5 years. Ashara could simply come in the last year, or anywhere between. We simply can't reject any possibility just because Barristan says it was "not long". She could be even at court for 2 years, and that is a plenty of time.

Yes, they don't have to be friends, but Barristan speaking kindly of her means that the relationship was at least, amicable. They could have been acquaintances only, polite to each other, and nothing more. I specifically said that their relationship wasn't close.

Thank you very much. The words are actually saying what I argue.

What this comes down to is definition, semantics. People define words differently. It's inevitable. And I think that's one of those things that makes ASOIAF so interesting is because it's told from POV. Nor is Logic is a straight path from A to B. It can be a path from A to B, C, D or E. Some people define "not long" as a certain period of time, which may be different- you and I are a case in point.

If what you are saying is your opinion, that's fantastic. You're entitled to it. But you're using your definition of a phrase to argue a point and tell us what this means. Which is inherently flawed, because it's YOUR definition of a phrase, not THE definition of a phrase. But you can hardly argue that this is precisely what the passage means when other people, as you can see, define it differently.

Who's smarter? You or me? Who's right? You or me?

[Sansa_Stark]

How old was Ashara anyways? When Barristan fell in love with her was she like Dany's age?

[Mladen]

If what you are saying is your opinion, that's fantastic. You're entitled to it. But you're using your definition of a phrase to argue a point and tell us what this means. Which is inherently flawed, because it's YOUR definition of a phrase, not THE definition of a phrase. But you can hardly argue that this is precisely what the passage means when other people, as you can see, define it differently.

Who's smarter? You or me? Who's right? You or me?

Well, certainly that my post is just my opinion. I am not GRRM, and what I say in my post is in no way canon. I am just arguing that we know enough to say that relationship between two of them, although not close, was amicable at least. I am arguing that we don't know when Ashara came to court, and that "not so long" phrase could not just simply mean "brief period of time" due to possibility Ashara got pregnant in Harrenhal and had a baby in KL. So, it is my opinion that Ashara was in KL for at least a year or so in KL.

I am so sorry, I didn't realize this is competition in who is smarter... But if it means so much to you, you won, dear. You are smarter...

[Ser Jimmy Plicket]

Similar, but not entirely correct

Barristan knew Ashara. Unlike Robert, Barristan was pretty much living in the same place with Ashara. They were probably meeting on daily basis for several years. I think that we can't judge Barristan's emotions, and their genuineness based on one thought. And more than that, Barristan isn't feeding his pride. He is extremely sadden by the fact he, in his opinion, could have stopped the entire Rhaegar/Lyanna thing. Naturally, he was wrong, but for him, and the rest of Westeros, that romance started when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna

Melancholy as he may be about the memory, Barristan is still incredibly arrogant about his "beloved" Ashara. Barristan is quite prideful and pompous in nearly everything he does.