Doesn't it seem weird how long R+L stayed at TOJ?

[Roxy Carmichael]

What makes anyone assume an attempt to overthrow Aerys by Rhaegar would have been successful or enjoyed widespread support? Even after he executed the Lord Paramount of the North and the heir to Winterfell and the heir to the Eyrie and called for the heads of the Stormlord and the new Stark lord, Aerys was able to maintain the allegiance of slightly more than half the kingdom. Prior to the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, Aerys, while paranoid and eccentric, had done nothing to justify his overthrow.

I question whether Rhaegar ever had serious plans for coup because I fail to see where he would have found the support...and especially considering his subsequent actions which you rightly served to piss of the very people he would have needed to be successful.

But the loyalists lost... regardless of numbers.

Especially after Rhaegar was killed, they just kind of melted away. It seems to me that a number of people were willing to fight for Rhaegar to be the future king, but they were not so willing to die for Aerys once that future was taken off the table. Hell, even Barristan Selmy jumped ship. Given the politics at the time, I don't think too many people would have worked against Rhaegar ousting his father.

"Support" does not have to mean "sending an army to help." Tywin effectively supported Robert's coup by staying at home.

But it's all moot, really, since Rhaegar was selfish and arrogant enough to anger people whose opinions matter by abducting Lyanna. Given the political climate it was a stupid thing to do, and we all know where stupidity lands a character with GRRM.

[Pikachu101]

But the loyalists lost... regardless of numbers.

Especially after Rhaegar was killed, they just kind of melted away. It seems to me that a number of people were willing to fight for Rhaegar to be the future king, but they were not so willing to die for Aerys once that future was taken off the table. Hell, even Barristan Selmy jumped ship. Given the politics at the time, I don't think too many people would have worked against Rhaegar ousting his father.

"Support" does not have to mean "sending an army to help." Tywin effectively supported Robert's coup by staying at home.

But it's all moot, really, since Rhaegar was selfish and arrogant enough to anger people whose opinions matter by abducting Lyanna. Given the political climate it was a stupid thing to do, and we all know where stupidity lands a character with GRRM.

:agree:

[Facebookless Man]

what, you never spent a whole year in bed?

[BlackStark]

But the loyalists lost... regardless of numbers.

Especially after Rhaegar was killed, they just kind of melted away. It seems to me that a number of people were willing to fight for Rhaegar to be the future king, but they were not so willing to die for Aerys once that future was taken off the table. Hell, even Barristan Selmy jumped ship. Given the politics at the time, I don't think too many people would have worked against Rhaegar ousting his father.

"Support" does not have to mean "sending an army to help." Tywin effectively supported Robert's coup by staying at home.

But it's all moot, really, since Rhaegar was selfish and arrogant enough to anger people whose opinions matter by abducting Lyanna. Given the political climate it was a stupid thing to do, and we all know where stupidity lands a character with GRRM.

I am aware the loyalists lost...my point is that if even after the horrendous acts he had committed he was still able to command a substantial level of support through sheer inertia of his position as King, why would you believe there would any widespread support among the nobles, let along the masses for his overthrow in an environment absent his crimes against the North and the subsequent events? Outside of Tywin and Rhaegar, the status quo seemed to be fine with everyone and there would need a better reason to upset the order of things than Rhaegar is more charismatic.

If no one would have objected or raise a fuss to challenge Rhaegar's coup, why did he not just do it then?

[Roxy Carmichael]

If no one would have objected or raise a fuss to challenge Rhaegar's coup, why did he not just do it then?

Because he was too busy obsessing about prophecies and how he could fulfill them. The health of the nation was pretty clearly not his top priority. He made bad choices and died for them.

[BlackStark]

Because he was too busy obsessing about prophecies and how he could fulfill them. The health of the nation was pretty clearly not his top priority. He made bad choices and died for them.

If Lyanna is necessary and essential to the fulfillment of the prophecy, isn't a King Rhaegar in a better position to negotiate a way out of the betrothal for Lyanna than a Crown Prince Rhaegar (especially if Aerys was one of the main impediments to him operating in the open)?

[Pikachu101]

Because he was too busy obsessing about prophecies and how he could fulfill them. The health of the nation was pretty clearly not his top priority. He made bad choices and died for them.

:agree:

Despite everyone saying he's a genius, to me Rhaegar comes off as a very stupid man who seriously lacks common sense.

In his head he probably decided that because he's right he therefore doesn't need to explain himself and everyone should just accept his decision making. That's probably why he didn't come out when Robert's Rebellion was triggered nor did he even try to negotiate with the furious Starks.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I truly think it is funny that many of the poster here who say that all Varys does is lie, keep saying that there was a plot against tMK, totally based off what Varys supposedly told him, and even that we get 3rd or 4th handed.

The most important things about this thread have not been mention. How long was Lyanna missing? How long would it take to get from the North(or maybe riverlands) to Dorne? How long did it take to build the ToJ? What was Rheagar's plan and why did he have one?

IMO she was missing somewhere between 13-16 months. I have seen another have it at 18-21. If the point was to just to get her with child, it could have been done done much sooner. I think that the heir had no fear from anyone except his father, so unlike everyone else we have seen(other then Robert on the way to WF)they took their time and got to know each other. It likely took 3 or 4 months to get there, 1 or 2 more to have the tower built. I don't think he worried about the Starks. He had to marry her, have her with child, before going to his father. That is why he had things planned. His father had already made a marriage for him, and would have stopped him from being with her. He did not think any Stark would rush to KL, nor did he think his father torture and kill Lords and their heirs.

R had no plans to replace his father, he wanted him to accept Lyanna. It isn't until he sees just how far his father has gone, that makes up his mind to replace him.

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar didn't built ToJ, it was an old, abandoned watchtower on the borders of Dorne.

[Morienthar]

My vote for stupidest post of the year!

He didn't start it, and he did fight in it.

Not soon enough and not well enough.

[Roxy Carmichael]

If Lyanna is necessary and essential to the fulfillment of the prophecy, isn't a King Rhaegar in a better position to negotiate a way out of the betrothal for Lyanna than a Crown Prince Rhaegar (especially if Aerys was one of the main impediments to him operating in the open)?

That's exactly my point.

If Rhaegar had been smart he could have had the throne, probably found a tactful way to negotiate for Lyanna, and begat as many little dragon heads as he pleased... thus fulfilling the prophecy as well easing political tensions and avoiding civil war. Win win.

His single-mindedness, arrogance, and messed up sense of priorities helped to royally screw Westeros, but it definitely makes for a better story.

[JonNonRegis]

I find it interesting how some members point out others are assuming some things but then talk about a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna as if it's a known fact

:agree:

[J. Stargaryen]

:agree:

R+L=J's version of the mark of the beast.

[Benjen of the Kingsguard]

Is the accepted theory that Lyanna and Rhaegar ran away with each other? I thought he kidnapped her.

[J. Stargaryen]

Is the accepted theory that Lyanna and Rhaegar ran away with each other? I thought he kidnapped her.

Kidnapping is the official story, but it seems like there is a good chance they ran away together. At the very least, at some point it seems to have been a consensual affair. After all, it was Rhaegar who named the abandoned watchtower where they stayed the Tower of Joy.

[corbon]

The most important things about this thread have not been mention. How long was Lyanna missing? How long would it take to get from the North(or maybe riverlands) to Dorne? How long did it take to build the ToJ? What was Rheagar's plan and why did he have one?

IMO she was missing somewhere between 13-16 months. I have seen another have it at 18-21. If the point was to just to get her with child, it could have been done done much sooner. I think that the heir had no fear from anyone except his father, so unlike everyone else we have seen(other then Robert on the way to WF)they took their time and got to know each other. It likely took 3 or 4 months to get there, 1 or 2 more to have the tower built. I don't think he worried about the Starks. He had to marry her, have her with child, before going to his father. That is why he had things planned. His father had already made a marriage for him, and would have stopped him from being with her. He did not think any Stark would rush to KL, nor did he think his father torture and kill Lords and their heirs.

What's missing from this of course, apart from the fact that the tower didn't need to be built, is that the shit hit the fan within a month or two of them going missing, and news would have taken a further month or two to find them at best. By that time its far too late to do anything positive and they'd be in danger from both sides.

Is the accepted theory that Lyanna and Rhaegar ran away with each other? I thought he kidnapped her.

Robert says so, but he has no known connection to the event to know the truth. He is also badly damaged psychologically, being near schitzophrenicly pathologically murderous around the subject of Targaryens and clearly has a deep seated need to believe Lyanna was kidnapped and raped rather than ran away voluntarily, which would be an utter rejection of him.

The only other one who says so is Bran, who is a little kid parroting the 'history' he has heard from others - 'history' being what the king (Robert) says it was.

But nothing adds up otherwise to kidnap.

We know Lyanna did not want or approve of Robert, from her conversation with Ned.

We know Lyanna seemed to have a crush for Rhaegar at Harrenhal, but from her crying at his sad song and the way she reacted to being teased for it.

We know Lyanna died still holding dead roses - possibly or even probably the crown Rhaegar awarded her at Harrenhal.

We know that Ned thinks of Rhaegar as being unlikely to frequent brothels, compared to Robert - an unlikely and very odd combination comparing the man who suppposedly kidnapped and raped your sister favourably to your best friend on a sexual/moral issue.

We know Ned never says anything against Rhaegar and is conspicuously silent when Robert rants.

We know Rhaegar was widely loved and respected for his character and deeds, devotion to his wife, and above all, duty.

We know Rhaegar believed he must have 3 kids to fulfill prophecy, yet his wife Elia was unable to have more children after his second child was born. And that this event happens just a few months before Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared.

We know Targaryens practiced polygamy and have no indication that the law has changed.

We (strongly) suspect Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and that when he was sent to find the KotLT, Rhaegar succeeded. But he held her identity secret, and thats why he awarded her the QoLaB.

Do the math...

[Arya kiddin']

There should be more to it. They weren't of course "cuddling" for an year......

[Ygrain]

There should be more to it. They weren't of course "cuddling" for an year......

Since the answer was "keep reading", there definitely is.

[callmedodge]

I find it interesting how some members point out others are assuming some things but then talk about a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna as if it's a known fact

The theories that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that they had a son known to us as Jon Snow are taken as hard fact by the majority of this board it`s not even funny and is often used as the basis for a lot of speculation. Sure. There is evidence, strong evidence, that these may actually be the case but until I hear it from the author`s mouth I`m treating it much like the Tyrion is a Targaryen or Howland Reed has mystical powers theories.