I cant believe why daenerys is view like a god......by some readers

[Ser Creighton]

You got to be kidding me, another one of these threads? Wow, just wow.

[Buckwheat]

Daenerys targaryen is a man hatin girl who knows nothing of the world, can it seem sometimes she is to dominating over other mens opinion :D

:stunned: :eek: :wideeyed: :shocked:

Please explain to me where Dany showes any hate for men.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

This is why, of all Dany fans, I like you and PatrickStormborn. Both of you are so understanding when it comes to Dany, her strengths and her flaws... Congratulations on that... It is a quality rarely seen among "misogynistic argumentative" "fireproof" Dany fans...

:agree:

[grand old duke of stark]

'A Bong of Ice and Fire' wrote:

What's the problem with this thread? Not enough corn code in it?

==============================================================

LOL!

I don't see Dany--or Jon for that matter--as gods, especially as the author himself says he won't even validate the gods as real gods. Nothing omnipotent about Dany or Jon. But they both seem to be be favored by some higher being(s), have magic creatures as familiars, be heralded by prophesy and legend, and be potential saviours of a world under existential threat. Moreover, they are both good-hearted people who have undergone hardship and yet work for the betterment of the human race. Most important, they are probably the two most credible candidates for AAR, PtwP, etc. I can understand why fans of each treat their own hero almost like a god, and often despise, denegrate, and discount the other. It will be fascinating to see how GRRM resolves this.

[MoIaF]

I like Dany a lot but I most certainly don't see her as any kind of god. Her character is highly complex; she has virtues and she has flaws which makes her highly interesting to me.

[Okaythen]

I thought long and hard about this and I really like Dany. She's compassionate and progressive, she has flaws but overall I like her a lot. I also like Jon Snow a lot and Stannis. I think any one of those has the potential to be a great leader.

What utterly perplexes me about these forums and the "fans" on here is their hero worship of some characters and hatred of others. I strongly dislike Tyrion but when I read people supporting him I see where they are coming from, he has good points.

GRRM is a fantastic at writing believable characters that come in all shades of grey. It baffles me that instead of discussing this in good faith most of the members of the forum seem to be obsessed with recolouring them black or white.

[Veltigar]

I think it's too early to declare what Dany did in Slaver's Bay a failure. A mess, certainly. But I don't think it's over yet. What Dany did was revolutionary and historic - freeing the slaves. Of course there would be a huge backlash to that. But isn't it a fight worth fighting? (How bloody and messy was the US Civil War?)

Bloody practice is still better than no practice. No way to get good at something without trying.

:bowdown:

[Mad Monkey]

What's the problem with this thread? Not enough corn code in it?

I feel like it's based on a strawman argument. Does anyone actually think that Daenerys is a god?

[The Great Walrus]

I see things still haven't changed around here... :dunno:

[Mladen]

I feel like it's based on a strawman argument. Does anyone actually think that Daenerys is a god?

If people imagine God as fireproof silver-haired bombshell immune to all diseases, then yes, some people think it... :)

[raegal_targaryen]

Damn People can be very devoted yes,this is kinda hmm ;D

[RenlySupporter16]

Dany is actually showing herself to be a bit of a bungler who's policy decisions are akin to recent American interventionism over seas. Without getting overly political for one side or the other I will merely say that Dany can do a great job winning the ward, she is equally as terrible when it comes to losing the peace however. Ms. Targaryen, in the words of shopkeepers everywhere, you break it you buy it. Morality simply cannot exist in a vacuum.

[Veltigar]

i dont see how u can enjoy her story in adwd really dont understand? please elaborate why ?

First of all not her entire arc was bad in ADWD. Just the 50 shades of Daario chapters, the return of Drogon and what followed was badass (and the first chapter was pretty good to).

Secondly, I can’t speak for everyone of course but personally I enjoyed the ideas and concepts that GRRM tried to get across.

The actual writing of those early Dany chapters was subpar for GRRM standards I’ll give you that. But the ideas behind it had a lot of potential. In ADWD Daenerys got punched in the face by reality and that is awesome!

You see I’m an avid fantasy reader and one of the things I really hate about the genre is the fact that almost all fantasy heroes are somehow born to rule. They don’t fuck up (or if they do they magically avoid a calamity), they always find the right way to deal with their problems and everybody but the bad guys who eat babies and want to plunge the world into chaos love them.

That’s just not how it works in the real world and GRRM does a bang up job in showing that in Dany’s chapters. She had no education and she’s not yet ready to make tough choices in ADWD and therefore her people suffer. That’s realistic to the core.

I also liked the fact that ADWD had Dany meeting the borders of her savior complex. That’s yet another fantasy cliché I really hate, you know the hero miraculously saving everyone all by himself without suffering a lot of damage (both physically and ethically). And GRRM just threw that one out of the window. What ADWD has shown to Dany (I think she’ll come around in tWoW) is that she can’t save them all and that she can’t do it alone. She basically prostituted herself to Hizzie to save lives and in the end fuck all changed. I think tWoW Dany will not take up all the burdens herself, she’ll delegate some to her close advisors (like Ser Barry) and she’ll certainly accept that to make an omelet she’ll have to break some eggs.

Another idea that came forward and that I really liked is Dany’s trouble with her identity. Throughout ADWD she wasn’t able to determine who or what she was. Is she a young maiden? Or is she a mother? Is she a slave? Or is she a Queen? A destroyer? Or a liberator? Is she a second Viserys? Or is she Rhaegar come again?

She struggled with that throughout the entire book and she did not find and easy answer (no magical Mister Myagi or Yoda popping up and telling her everything). In fact she even fled from some of the people who could provide her with part of the answer (Barristan) because she was scared of what they were going to tell her. I always found that pretty realistic. In her situation, with that burden on her shoulders and the baggage she carries with her, I would shit my pants. In fact that’s why I never understood why so many people think she’ll go Aerys II on Westeros. Her concern to me indicates that she’s still a very moral person and moving far away from Aerys II territory.

I believe her first chapters in tWoW will be very internal and that they’ll be mainly focused on exactly determining what she is and what she wants.

And now we come to the problematic part. There is one idea left that I think could have been very interesting but GRRM totally botched that up in my opinion.

Dany’s attraction to Daario. The idea of “un home fatal” (Daario) and the juxtaposition of duty versus personal want could have been phenomenal.

Sadly, the character that GRRM created (Daario) was ill suited for his task.

Daario, for starters, is way too obvious. The archetype of “Homme fatal” can only work when there is mystery involved, but with Daario there is none. He is what he appears to be (a greedy sellsword) and nothing more.

I’m pretty sure that Daario is Dany’s betrayal for gold and that GRRM intended that to be the mystery surrounding the character, but we can see it coming from a mile off.

And that’s sad, I mean remember the RW? That was so compelling because most of us saw a major setback for team Stark coming, but none of us had anticipated for such a high amount of carnage (and in such a vile way).

The other big problem with Daario is that he’s just too much of a caricature. I mean the guy has blue hair, a golden tooth, a sleazy attitude, a couple of silly blades, an ego the size of the empire state building and almost the first thing he did was kill his brothers-in-arms and change sides. It’s as if Dany fell in love with a circus clown (and a very incompetent one to). The whole romance is so unbelievable. I mean God knows I have my problems with pedo drogo but I think we can all agree that we can realistically see women fall for that kind of guy (See Jason Momoa fan girls for the prove).

As a character Daario is a complete fail. He’s obvious, he’s not funny, he’s not badass and the biggest crime of all: he’s annoying (+ boring). He is what makes Dany characters drag. Just go and re-read ADWD, the longer Daario is out of the picture the more interesting Dany’s chapters become. That’s a fact. And Daario is not the only character with that problem, Penny is guilty of a lot of those same crimes. Luckily the show might do a better job here, they cut most of the ridiculousness out of Daario (he’s still campy but it’s acceptable) and I hope they’ll cut Penny out entirely.

On top of Daario there is also the train wreck that is Meereen or GRRM’s eastern essos as a whole. His Westeros is brilliant, I’d go so far as to say that it’s the definitive pseudo-medieval English fantasy setting. But the farther east he gets the more he loses touch so to speak. His free cities are passable but Slavers bay and Qarth are horrible settings. Nothing about those cultures feels real (even though some things like the three walls of Qarth are based on actual history). In aCoK and ASOS she avoided the bullet a bit because of her momentum but the moment she started a slower part of her arc in one of those places she was fucked.

So a quick summary. Not everything was bad for Dany in ADWD. Her arc contained a lot of interesting ideas but the ridiculous setting and the horrible execution of some of those ideas blew up in her face and created the wide spread Dany hatred.

[jentario]

I have never seen her viewed as god. In fact, the opposite is true- the majority of this forum despise her with all their heart (unjustly IMO- not because she is god, but because she just isn't THAT bad).

[Lady Fevre Dream]

So a quick summary. Not everything was bad for Dany in ADWD. Her arc contained a lot of interesting ideas but the ridiculous setting and the horrible execution of some of those ideas blew up in her face and created the wide spread Dany hatred.

Absolutely terrific post, I agree on Daario to a big extent, he could have been so much better, he should have had a touch of the Han Solo devilish rouge, believable charm, that's the best way I can describe, I guess....what is missing from him. I'd love to be surprised and have him not be the betrayal, have him do something monumental that in the long run helps Dany, as he does grow on me, just a bit, after awhile. Hey, I couldn't stand Strong Belwas at first, and came to appreciate him, not that Daario will ever be a character I mourn when he's gone. I think the tv version was helpful, and it seems they are cutting out everyone's outlandish hairdye, like Saan, too. I don't expect we will eventually meet a purple haired Griff and Griff, either. Although, I did see where Daario has been recast, I'm not sure why.

I see Dany emerging from the Dothraki Sea as a much more solid character, I think her ending chapters show that. I can see the dance with possible madness, but I think her seeing it herself, at times, is the best sign that she will continue to beat the odds on that. I think alot of her dialogue to herself in that ending chapter about dragons not building things, etc., was her coming to terms with the fact that she is going to have to get nasty, with the Dothraki that just found her, to try and set Mereen right and set the freed slaves and the others on the path of doing some of the work for their society themselves, and for her to finally face that it is Westeros that seems to be her destiny, her and her dragon, or dragons? Not that I expect a clear, easy, or straight path, as if that's even possible.

I just wanted to say that is a terrific post, I thought you deserved to hear that after all that work, and I tried to give a well thought out and written out answer on some of my own thoughts and feelings on the post, and on Dany.

[Rhymes with Weak]

There is only one God, and it's name is Stark!

[l3ol3o]

Dany is a great person - she is a true liberator in the East. The historical importance of what she is doing for the slaves of Worlderos is immense.

Of course she's wielding power awkwardly and clumsily as she learns, and she tends to bite off more than she should.

She is flawed and immature, but she is not ordinary - she is great, she is the Dragon.

More on point, ruling in Slaver's Bay should be good practice for ruling Westeros, if she ever does.

It's way to early to call Dany the great liberator of the East. First of all she has only abolished slavery in 1 city and slavery is alive and well outside her walls. As soon as she leaves for Westeros slavery will return and the situation will be 10x worse for the slaves because of the mess Dany left. You can take the greatest men in the world and they would have a hard time getting rid of the slave trade in Slavers bay. It's just part of the culture. The is the same in the real world where slavery is still alive and well in parts of Africa. Slavers bay is even worse because almost it's entire economy is based on slavery.

Secondly Dany is a slaver herself. She only decided to free slaves when she needed an army. Before that she didn't think of freeing slaves and had no problem with Drogo taking slaves to fund an army. She was willing to let Drogo enslave thousands in Westeros as long as she got the IT. She is far from the great emancipator. When all is said and done Dany will have made everyone's lives in Slavers bay much worse. Slavery will go on and thousands will have died for virtually nothing.

Also the notion of "practicing" ruling is absurd. If you need to practice ruling then you shouldn't be ruling in the first place.Dany is completely changing the economy of a city and warring with virtually all her neighbors for what? Practice? And what happens when she feels she has enough practice? She packs up and leaves her mess behind.

[Veltigar]

Absolutely terrific post, I agree on Daario to a big extent, he could have been so much better, he should have had a touch of the Han Solo devilish rouge, believable charm, that's the best way I can describe, I guess....what is missing from him.

I agree with you 100% about your comparison with Han Solo. I think that was what GRRM was aiming for, all be it a lot darker, like the male equivalent of the femme fatal (I read a few stories about Cugel the smart, a character created by Jack Vance, oneof GRRM favorite authors. He should have taken some examples from that character to make Daario).

I'd love to be surprised and have him not be the betrayal, have him do something monumental that in the long run helps Dany, as he does grow on me, just a bit, after awhile. Hey, I couldn't stand Strong Belwas at first, and came to appreciate him, not that Daario will ever be a character I mourn when he's gone.

The worst part is that I can’t even imagine the thing he could do to win me back. But I’m open for suggestions.

I think the tv version was helpful, and it seems they are cutting out everyone's outlandish hairdye, like Saan, too. I don't expect we will eventually meet a purple haired Griff and Griff, either

Thank the old Gods and the new for that.

Although, I did see where Daario has been recast, I'm not sure why.

The previous actor probably got a better offer somewhere else. Although I personally hope they recast Daario because they wanted to take Daario in another direction. The new guys acting chops are quite impressive so I hope they’ll make the character into less of a buffoon.

Even with all the things they cut away from Daario, the previous guy was still regularly crossing the line into the ridiculous.

I see Dany emerging from the Dothraki Sea as a much more solid character, I think her ending chapters show that. I can see the dance with possible madness, but I think her seeing it herself, at times, is the best sign that she will continue to beat the odds on that. I think alot of her dialogue to herself in that ending chapter about dragons not building things, etc., was her coming to terms with the fact that she is going to have to get nasty, with the Dothraki that just found her, to try and set Mereen right and set the freed slaves and the others on the path of doing some of the work for their society themselves, and for her to finally face that it is Westeros that seems to be her destiny, her and her dragon, or dragons? Not that I expect a clear, easy, or straight path, as if that's even possible.

We agree again. We’ll have to wait and see of course but I think she’ll indeed return from the Dothraki Sea as a much more confident leader.

I just wanted to say that is a terrific post, I thought you deserved to hear that after all that work, and I tried to give a well thought out and written out answer on some of my own thoughts and feelings on the post, and on Dany.

Thanks for the response. I’m glad you appreciated my post, just like I appreciated the answer :cheers:

Daario

You know that’s another thing that irks me incredibly. We have never even seen the fucker fight in the books!

But about your actual point. No way in hell that he’s taking out both Barristan and Jorah. In fact I’d be surprised if he’s able to take one of them down. Like I said we don’t know how good Daario is. He’s probably good, but I doubt that he’s anything special. Ser Barristan will eat him up for breakfast and even Jorah will probably be able to best him easily. I mean the guy uses a freaking Arahk! And we all know what happens when plate and Westerosi fighting styles meats that silly excuse for a sword.

In fact the only character that I can see being killed off by Daario is Missandei. I could totally see him taking her hostage when his betrayal is revealed and realizing that he can’t escape he decides to hurt Dany by killing the former slave girl.

[Katsa]

well clearly u are jon fan right. and those fans usally are very critiqal over dany and should be well u know her story.and its cool that ur on this thread and not just on my other one :D

I am a fan of both Jon and Dany (there aren't many of us in the forums but we do exist)... and I became a fan of both of these characters only after reading ADwD; Cat was my favourite before that.

No, I do not see her as a God. I see her as a very flawed hero. A conqueror who has just learned that sacking cities is easy pie compared to establishing a long-lasting dynasty. I see a strong possibility of Dany being regarded as a villain (kinslayer, Mad Aerys II etc. etc.) by the people in the Westeros, even though she will be one of the heroes in the Battle for Dawn.

Obsidian = Dragon Glass = Frozen Fire

Dragons = Fire made flesh

Obsidian is a volcanic glass that has little and less to do with actual dragons. It was probably nicknamed dragonglass because it can be found in abundance in the natural lair of dragons. There were no dragons mentioned in the stories about the first Battle for Dawn either, and dragons would have been a pretty significant detail IMO.

This is not to say that dragons are completely useless against the Long Night. I do believe that they will be useful against the wights but I am skeptical about its effectiveness against the Others. I don't think it is GRRM's style of writing to have 3 dragons melting all the Others just like that. It just isn't the story he is writing. I mean, why bother writing about the other characters if that were the case?

Magic should never be the solution to the problem. My credo as a writer has always been Faulkner’s Nobel Prize acceptance speech where he said, “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.” That transcends genre. That’s what good fiction, good drama is about: human beings in trouble. You have to make a decision, you have to do something, your life is in danger or your honor is in danger, or you're facing some crisis of the heart. To make a satisfying story, the protagonist has to solve the problem, or fail to solve the problem – but has to grapple with the problem in some kind of rational way, and the reader has to see that. And if the hero does win in the end, he has to feel that that victory is earned. The danger with magic is that the victory could be unearned. Suddenly you're in the last chapter and you wind up with a deus ex machina. The hero suddenly remembers that if he can just get some of this particular magical plant, then he can brew a potion and solve his problem. And that's a cheat. That feels very unsatisfying. It cheapens the work. Well-done fantasy – something like Tolkien – he sets Lord of the Rings up perfectly, right at the beginning. The only way to get rid of the ring, the only way, is to take it to Mount Doom and throw it in the fires from which it comes. You know that right from the first. And if we'd gone through all that, and then at the end of the book suddenly Gandalf had said, wait a minute, I just remembered, here's this other spell, oh, I can get rid of the ring easily! You would have hated that. That would have been all wrong. Magic can ruin things. Magic should never be the solution. Magic can be part of the problem.

(Source: http://www.austinchronicle.com/blogs/books/2013-08-29/lonestarcon-3-the-george-r-r-martin-interview/)

(For the record, I don't subscribe to the idea that Jon Snow is the one-man solution to the Long Night either. I think it will take more than just the effort of one man or woman, even with the help of three dragons, to beat the Others.)

If the dragons can harm the Others, I think it will only make sense that the Others can harm them as well. That would make the story much, much more interesting.

Save 7K from what? Chaos those dragons will cause?

Interesting point you pulled up. While I do believe that the dragons will play a large role in the Battle for Dawn, I think they are sort of like these double edged swords that will cut both ways. After all, I do have that certain quote in my signature which is an eerie foreshadowing of the death and destruction the dragons are about to cause...

[Mladen]

Interesting point you pulled up. While I do believe that the dragons will play a large role in the Battle for Dawn, I think they are sort of like these double edged swords that will cut both ways. After all, I do have that certain quote in my signature which is an eerie foreshadowing of the death and destruction the dragons are about to cause...

I am not sure dragons are reserved for War for Dawn 2.0, but I know they will have humongous role in Dance of dragons 2.0... And since I think that two confrontations will happen simultaneously, I see Martin pulling the greatest irony. The powerful weapon, dragons are used somewhere else, while pretenders are fighting for the throne that belong to the guy fighting in another war...