[SPOILERS] Breaking Bad - Final Season - Final Two Episodes

[Reposado]

This is where we disagree the most. For starters, while I agree that Walt and Jesse and Hank and Sky are in the show, and this season is "about" them to a degree, they are ultimately reacting to the whims and fancies of the Neo-Nazis, and its the Nazi's actions which have consumed the whole season. That's why I almost go apoplectic when you say "the neo nazis are 'just there'." That's an incredibly hollow statement. The Nazi's are not "just there"; they are this formless, unrealistic, homogeneous, utterly incredible criminal entity that runs at a level of efficiency not seen by many militaries. They are driving the conflict in the show over and above what Walt and Jesse etc do. Their involvement has been so great as to utterly dwarf the characters and those characters choices; their choices do not matter- what matters is what the Neo Nazis want. Jesse's choices? Nill since he ran into the NN; Sky's choices; same. Hank's choices? Hehe...

And Walt has shrunk from them. Sure, now at the 11th hour he will dispatch them, and why? Because there is no 9th episode or 6th season to propel towards. The NN did their deux ex machina job and that's that.

but the thing is, that until recently, they were nothing more than an extension of walts will. he could essentially call them in. a tool in his bag. and in his hubris, he has essentially unleashed them. he conjured a demon that he could not control.

they arent interesting because they dont really have agency(aside from tom). they dont have their own will. they are what walt has sewn.

which works for me as a final enemy. it doesnt work for you. which is to be expected. final seasons more than anything else tend to not work for everyone.

but i dont think they are more efficient, or less believable than most of what has happened in this show.

ETA: so basically, i can see how it would not work for someone. but it does work for me, and i dont think i would change much about this final season.

[Fez]

if the Better Call Saul show is a hit, it would be great if they eventually fast forwarded with him starting over in Nebraska

The prequel talk could've been misdirection and the spinoff actually will be about him trying to make it in Nebraska.

Anyway, I actually watched this episode after having not seen anything since the middle of season 2 (I know about half the plotlines that I missed though), and honestly I didn't like it much. But then again, I don't have any vested interest in what's going on. Cranston is clearly a great actor though, and the episode was a sight more entertaining than the SNF game or the Emmys.

[Independent George]

Did this episode leave anybody else thinking about Archer's rampage against the Irish mob?

AMC really screwed the pooch with Low Winter Sun. Putting it right behind Breaking Bad just makes everybody realize how half-assed it is.

[Winterfell is Burning]

The prequel talk could've been misdirection and the spinoff actually will be about him trying to make it in Nebraska.

Maybe, but if he isn't acting as a shamelessly corrupt lawyer, where's the fun in that?

[Fez]

Maybe, but if he isn't acting as a shamelessly corrupt lawyer, where's the fun in that?

Shamelessly corrupt IHOP manager sounds fun. And he could always decide to restart his law practice in Nebraska, particularly if all the people he's hiding from end up dead in the finale next week.

[Tears of Lys]

The Ricin is definitely intended for terrorism. Walt will taint one of Grey Matter's products the same way that the Tylenol scandal of the early 80's nearly wrecked that brand.

This makes absollute sense. Grey Matter is no J&J and they would most likely handle the fallout poorly.

AMC really screwed the pooch with Low Winter Sun. Putting it right behind Breaking Bad just makes everybody realize how half-assed it is.

This series is trying to be gritty, whereas BB IS gritty. It spent absolutely no time at all on building the characters - they just appear on screen, fully fleshed out as whack-jobs. The writers' short-cutting like this after the viewers are left reeling literally minutes before, shows up like, as someone said upthread, blood on a wedding gown.

It's really a pity because Detroit makes a great backdrop for all sorts of stories. I was waiting for LWS to show the wealthy suburbs just outside of the abandoned houses and empty streets of the city and how corruption, high and low, contributes to the pain felt by the common folk. Alas, it was not to be.

ETA: I guess it was a calculated wager on AMC's part. They obviously felt that viewers would be left wanting more "GRIT" and didn't feel like they had the time to wait until the story built. LWS was not done any favors by AMC's doing this. I don't know WHAT could follow BB, though.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I wouldn't say the Nazis have been too significant this season. If anything, they are the embodiment of Consequences of the main characters' actions. If there's a consequence that needs enacting, they're there to do it, whether it's Hank's death due to Walt, or Andrea's death due to Jesse. While that is a big role, I don't think it takes away from the main characters at all.

Except the Todd, that guy is one sick fuck. He is a very interesting antagonist. His dead-eyed look when threatening Skyler was scary as fuck...

agreed on all counts and if he had actually killed Skyler, I don't think I could have stomached watching the rest of the episode.

[Morpheus]

Shamelessly corrupt IHOP manager sounds fun. And he could always decide to restart his law practice in Nebraska, particularly if all the people he's hiding from end up dead in the finale next week.

He is hiding from the law or at least the likelihood they will come for him eventually, his biggest client and source of income is public enemy number 1, Huell is missing, and Skyler is going to be pressured, he has no reason to think that she will feel much loyalty to her husband's sleaze bag lawyer/accomplice.

[Commodore]

Maybe, but if he isn't acting as a shamelessly corrupt lawyer, where's the fun in that?

it would be fun to see how a cockroach manages to survive and thrive when forced to start over with severe limitations (fugitive)

Saul is unmatched when it comes to resourcefulness (perhaps Walt is on par)

[Reposado]

The prequel talk could've been misdirection and the spinoff actually will be about him trying to make it in Nebraska.

Anyway, I actually watched this episode after having not seen anything since the middle of season 2 (I know about half the plotlines that I missed though), and honestly I didn't like it much. But then again, I don't have any vested interest in what's going on. Cranston is clearly a great actor though, and the episode was a sight more entertaining than the SNF game or the Emmys.

it also, on its own, was perhaps the weakest of the final 8. not that there werent some great parts, but compared to last week, it was really just setting up the finale

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte]

The prequel talk could've been misdirection and the spinoff actually will be about him trying to make it in Nebraska.

Anyway, I actually watched this episode after having not seen anything since the middle of season 2 (I know about half the plotlines that I missed though), and honestly I didn't like it much. But then again, I don't have any vested interest in what's going on. Cranston is clearly a great actor though, and the episode was a sight more entertaining than the SNF game or the Emmys.

I don't get it..why would you waste 75 minutes of your life watching something you obviously won't understand or care about? ? Ofc u wouldn't enjoy it...all the little things would be lost on you.

Anyway great episode..wish I could sleep till Sunday lol

[naz]

Those of you complaining about the neo-nazis as antagonists taking away from the show's quality are missing the point, I think. Some of your arguments are valid, such as saying that the neo-nazis are flat and not as well-developed as the other antagonists, but I think that's the point. Ultimately, Walt's narrative arc shows that he can only be a successful criminal so long as the people he works with (or against) have some redeemable sympathetic qualities, as he does. Crazy 8, Tuco, and Gus were all increasingly represented as human beings and not just criminals. We sympathized a bit with Crazy 8 when he was Walt's prisoner. Tuco was shown to be a family man of sorts and even personable to an extent. Gus was the most developed of the villains. He was represented more as a cold and ruthless businessman and less as a murderous drug lord.

Now we have the neo-nazis who, aside from Todd to some extent, are not as well-developed as characters. They are truly evil psychopaths, made evident by the fact that they're nazis - a group of people almost universally despised by a world still a couple of generations away from Hitler's atrocities. The fact that they're nazis is really all we need to know about them. They represent pure ruthless evil that Walt - at the heart of it, a small chemistry with oversized ambitions - cannot possibly go up against and thus he falls and fails.

Essentially the nazis are not well characterized because we don't want them to have a character. We don't want them to be human or have any qualities that we can relate to. Hence the reason why that home invasion scene was so chilling - they were at their peak of non-human-ness, dressed in black with masks. The only one that shows signs of humanity is Todd and that's because we need one of them to be a link to Walt/Jesse so that they don't simply outright kill them when they can. Also, Todd's humanity vis a vis Lydia is also important to the story, since she's the textbook example of "tentative criminal" and her involvement with the nazis reveals the extent to which things have gotten out of hand for her (for which she will almost certainly suffer, I'm sure).

So, I don't begrudge the show's representation of the nazis as flat and "uninteresting". To me, they are interesting only insofar as they are a monolithic wall of pure evil against which Walt's rising tide of momentary badness ultimately crashes. Until next week, at least.

[Fez]

He is hiding from the law, his biggest client is public enemy number 1, Huell is missing, and Skyler is going to be pressured by the law, I don't think she will feel much loyalty to her husband's sleaze bag lawyer/accomplice.

And the pilot episode (or the Season 1 finale if they don't want a completely clean break from BB) could easily have him making some sort of 'White Collar' style deal with the federal government (only not as blatantly unrealistic).

Also, Gilligan's said that Peter Gould will be the showrunner for Better Call Saul since he's the one who created the character. Gould might have a different sensability than Gilligan and want to have a significantly more light-hearted show (although presumably it'll still be an hour-long drama), or just not have to deal with any residual plotlines from BB (and, if it truly is a prequel, than he clearly doesn't; but that makes the rest of this moot).

ETA:

I don't get it..why would you waste 75 minutes of your life watching something you obviously won't understand or care about? ? Ofc u wouldn't enjoy it...all the little things would be lost on you.

Anyway great episode..wish I could sleep till Sunday lol

I said I didn't care, not that I didn't understand. I know what's going on because, like everything else he writes, I read Andy Greenwald's recaps at Grantland, although in BB's case I only do so because I think he's a a really good writer. And anyway I was curious to see what all the fuss was about, and my planned Sunday watching (switching back and forth between the Emmys and SNF) was being spectacularly uninteresting.

[JungWheats]

I'm so glad the Grey Matter thing showed up. I've always felt like Grey Matter was a large part of Walt's psyche and his feelings of inadequacy, I'm glad that they will be tied up in the finale somehow. I think the show told us how, already, though. Walt is going to use the threat of terror and corporate destruction to force them to use his money to set up a charity of some sort and the money will be funneled to the family through that. Perhaps Skyler will be picked as the CEO for the charity or some ish. Whoever shouted out using the Ricin to contaminate some of Grey Matter's products was probably spot on. I guess the x-factor here is going to be what happens when Walt and Jesse come face to face again.

[Jabronius Maximus]

it also, on its own, was perhaps the weakest of the final 8. not that there werent some great parts, but compared to last week, it was really just setting up the finale

I disagree about it being the weakest, but to each their own. I thought Rabid Dog was easily the weakest of the season, followed by Buried. Granite State I'd put on the same level as Confessions.

[Commodore]

It's really a pity because Detroit makes a great backdrop for all sorts of stories. I was waiting for LWS to show the wealthy suburbs just outside of the abandoned houses and empty streets of the city and how corruption, high and low, contributes to the pain felt by the common folk. Alas, it was not to be.

This idea works in theory but rarely in execution because 1) the writers don't really know anything about these places since they are usually living in NYC/LA and 2) these areas have large minority populations and showrunners/writers are wary of portraying them in a negative light.

The Wire is unique in this regard, very knowledgeable about the subject matter and not afraid to tell hard truths. The showrunners were a journalist and an ex-cop.

Detroit is like Baltimore turned up to 11, but the LWS showrunners are going to focus only on a corrupt white cop. Likewise, rather than getting into border issues, The Bridge focuses on a white male cartoon super villain.

[Reposado]

This idea works in theory but rarely in execution because 1) the writers don't really know anything about these places since they are usually living in NYC/LA and 2) these areas have large minority populations and showrunners/writers are wary of portraying them in a negative light.

The Wire is unique in this regard, very knowledgeable about the subject matter and not afraid to tell hard truths. The showrunners were a journalist and an ex-cop.

Detroit is like Baltimore turned up to 11, but the LWS showrunners are going to focus only on a corrupt white cop. Likewise, rather than getting into border issues, The Bridge focuses on a white male cartoon super villain.

agree. people keep thinking they can do this, but its much tougher than they assume.

then people keep saying, such-and-such city is a character or the main character. typically when they say this, they are apologizing for the show not having good characters, because the unique qualities of the city arent really that important in the respective stories

[Bridgeburners]

I said I didn't care, not that I didn't understand. I know what's going on because, like everything else he writes, I read Andy Greenwald's recaps at Grantland, although in BB's case I only do so because I think he's a a really good writer. And anyway I was curious to see what all the fuss was about, and my planned Sunday watching (switching back and forth between the Emmys and SNF) was being spectacularly uninteresting.

Plot context is not enough. You have to understand it from an emotional context.

Back while I was following it in season three, a friend of mine joined us to watch the latest episode. We caught him up on the whole thing so he could understand what's going on. Well the whole episode was about Walt and Jesse chasing a fly, so my friend came out of it thinking it was the most ridiculous and stupid shit ever.

A year later, he said he caught up on the whole thing. I asked him about the fly episode and he said it was amazing. Given his investment into the characters, at that point, every scene felt a hell of a lot more powerful.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that I feel like Jesse giving up and trying to compromise with the WS was a bit of a stretch. If he really wanted to die instead of continue to cook, it seems he should have continued climbing up the fence and force them to shoot him.

[Rockroi]

Now we have the neo-nazis who, aside from Todd to some extent, are not as well-developed as characters. They are truly evil psychopaths, made evident by the fact that they're nazis - a group of people almost universally despised by a world still a couple of generations away from Hitler's atrocities. The fact that they're nazis is really all we need to know about them. They represent pure ruthless evil that Walt - at the heart of it, a small chemistry with oversized ambitions - cannot possibly go up against and thus he falls and fails

The fact that they are Nazis is obviously not an accident; its lazy writing. Its basically mindless antagonizm, telling every single viewer "No need to think: these guys are evil and mean and have no depth, substance or realism. They are racists; in fact, we want to make this SO easy on you Mr. and Mrs. Stupid Viewer that we are making them Nazis- the International term we use for horrible, horrible people." Its not even caring enough about the world or the story enough to give us something real, but instead a caricature of a villain; so lifeless and easy to hate that it lacks all notions of a story.

Essentially the nazis are not well characterized because we don't want them to have a character.

Disagree. I don't buy this at all. I want everything in this show to be- at some level- believable. Even if its a stretch.

Case-in-point: my most hated character: Ted. That complete waste of space. He is a tax-stealing fraud who is hiding money and getting his own employees into his criminal activity... BUT HE WON'T TAKE SKY'S.... GAMBLING MONEY?@??!?!?!?!?@! No really?!?!?!?!? That was in the show!!! Unrealistic, foolish, silly, stupid. Hated it. And for (some of) the SAME reasons I hate the NN - unrealistic, empty, void of understanding, simplistic, simple, foolish, silly.

We don't want them to be human or have any qualities that we can relate to. Hence the reason why that home invasion scene was so chilling - they were at their peak of non-human-ness, dressed in black with masks.

I think this is a stretch. Every criminal who breaks into a house dresses like that. Its like saying the comedian is trying to hide who he really is by wearing a Grocho nose mustache and glasses. The NN's don't work because they cling to cliche's. That's simply silly.

The only one that shows signs of humanity is Todd and that's because we need one of them to be a link to Walt/Jesse so that they don't simply outright kill them when they can. Also, Todd's humanity vis a vis Lydia is also important to the story, since she's the textbook example of "tentative criminal" and her involvement with the nazis reveals the extent to which things have gotten out of hand for her (for which she will almost certainly suffer, I'm sure).

Now, I will say that Todd works. But that''s in CONTRAST to what you are saying: Todd displays decisions; they have consequences; he differs from the collective and has attachments to characters outside the group. But even better- Todd's sense pf psychopathy is compelling (in doses) "Nothing personal", "Sorry for your loss," etc is a sign of disconnect: a man TRYING to say things that he thinks need to be said, but he has no underlying empathy. THAT is interesting because its IN RELATION to the actual characters that are there.

And its in utter contrast to the remaining NN who are lifeless and silly.

But again, this does not address the actual problem I have with the NN which is how utterly powerful they are and how they do anything they want; know whatever they need to know; kill everyone; and they have no consequences nor any restraints- including restraints to social order and/or reality (all NN go in the same direction, without even a HINT of different opinions and drop whatever they are doing to go kill and maim and slaughter; nobody questions anything).

So, I don't begrudge the show's representation of the nazis as flat and "uninteresting". To me, they are interesting only insofar as they are a monolithic wall of pure evil against which Walt's rising tide of momentary badness ultimately crashes. Until next week, at least.

And if you are okay with that, I am okay with that. My problem is that I can't stomach it because the NN have taken the show over and all conflicts, stories and progress must pass through them.

And the fact that they are "pure evil" does not interest me at all for the reasons we both stated. Its the fact that they are the monolith of POWER that I find utterly wanting.