[SPOILERS] Breaking Bad - Final Season - Final Two Episodes

[Fez]

Plot context is not enough. You have to understand it from an emotional context.

Back while I was following it in season three, a friend of mine joined us to watch the latest episode. We caught him up on the whole thing so he could understand what's going on. Well the whole episode was about Walt and Jesse chasing a fly, so my friend came out of it thinking it was the most ridiculous and stupid shit ever.

A year later, he said he caught up on the whole thing. I asked him about the fly episode and he said it was amazing. Given his investment into the characters, at that point, every scene felt a hell of a lot more powerful.

That's no doubt true, and one of the reason's why I didn't say that the show was bad, clearly its great, I just didn't enjoy it*. However, I didn't enjoy it for the same reasons that I didn't like the first season and a half; at which point I'd had just as much emotional context as everyone who was loving the show.

*Except Bob Odenkirk, who I always like, and is why I've been interested in Better Call Saul.

[The Monkey]

These have to be the most politically correct neo-Nazis I've ever seen. The only reason we know they're neo-Nazis is because of the swastikas and SS tattoos. As far as their behaviour and dialogue goes, they're just like ordinary criminals. You'd think some of them would have made a racist comment on murdering a latino woman in the last episode, or expressed some joy about them taking over meth business in the region from the Mexicans.

[Independent George]

Case-in-point: my most hated character: Ted. That complete waste of space. He is a tax-stealing fraud who is hiding money and getting his own employees into his criminal activity... BUT HE WON'T TAKE SKY'S.... GAMBLING MONEY?@??!?!?!?!?@! No really?!?!?!?!? That was in the show!!! Unrealistic, foolish, silly, stupid. Hated it. And for (some of) the SAME reasons I hate the NN - unrealistic, empty, void of understanding, simplistic, simple, foolish, silly.

Actually, I found Ted's behavior to be much more realistic and believable than Walter's. Most white collar criminals are initially more delusional than outright evil. Hell, Bernie Madoff didn't set out to run a pyramid scheme; at the start, he honestly and truly believed he could make up his losses and needed a few more quarters to do so. By the time he realized he couldn't, all that was left was to keep up pretenses.

I can completely believe the cognitive and moral dissonance behind Ted's behavior. It's like an alcoholic who insists on 'rules' to his drinking, believing that sets it apart from other drunks. To an outsider, it's complete BS, but it makes perfect sense in their own heads. Ted is Walter without the murder.

[Tears of Lys]

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that I feel like Jesse giving up and trying to compromise with the WS was a bit of a stretch. If he really wanted to die instead of continue to cook, it seems he should have continued climbing up the fence and force them to shoot him.

He certainly would have saved at least one other person's life by taking that route.

ETA: Oh, and **I** would be remiss if I did not add that Jesse has finally become a great student of chemistry. Wasn't 96% mentioned at some point?

[Independent George]

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that I feel like Jesse giving up and trying to compromise with the WS was a bit of a stretch. If he really wanted to die instead of continue to cook, it seems he should have continued climbing up the fence and force them to shoot him.

Why would they shoot him, instead of driving around the fence and capturing him again?

[a free shadow]

All the whiteness! The screen colouring was great.

And "Tomorrow..." :smile:

I disliked Schwarzes more than Walter :ninja:

[JungWheats]

Isn't the whole connection to the Nazis brought on by their need to hit the men in prison? The neo-nazis have prison connects. That is how Walter came into contact with them. White power groups are a big operating force within the global prison system. Nothing about them seems improbable, given how they came into the show. They are hardened douches because of time they spent in lock-up and probably life-long crime before that.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Why would they shoot him, instead of driving around the fence and capturing him again?

Jack already wanted to execute him once he saw the video confession. I could see them thinking of Jesse as to much of a headache to keep alive.

[Howdyphillip]

Rockroi,

First off, I would like to just say that I have always enjoyed reading your posts. There are very few posts of yours that aren't elaborate, well thought out and communicated. Just because I have a disagreement with the content, by no means eliminates my enjoyment from hearing your perspective.

Having said that, I believe your interpretations of how this series was written and the use of the WS characters as being particularly hollow and overtly powerful is off base. You use several examples of "impossible" things that the NN have done. While I agree that with some of their actions the viewer has been asked to stretch to the limit of credibility, I find them no more unbelievable than actions that have been taken by other characters through the course of the show. I would give a long list of examples here, but for the sake of time, let's just point out that the main character walked in to a building of armed men who wanted to kill him and blew it up with mercury sulfate while not injuring himself. My point here is that this hasn't been the lazy writing that you are accusing the show of. It has been consistent in setting the boundaries of what the viewer is supposed to believe.

The viewers have been asked from the very beginning to accept the story as told, and I don't find the WS any more powerful or with any less characterization than the Twins. We didn't need to see the Twins disagree, or have to understand what their primary motivations in life were either to realize that they represented formidable conflict. Using the Twins for an example, we have already seen more development in the WS than them, Jack for example is way more nuanced than the Twins ever were. They are also a legitimate power in real life when it comes to understanding the Meth trade, so it is not the random group of evil just thrown in to represent evil.

Then we go to the discussion of Todd, which could be one of the greatest characters written for this story. For some reason, you want to exclude him from the WS and focus on that character being developed while at the same time saying the WS aren't developed. You can't really do that as the narrative of the WS is told through Todd. He is the development. The story focuses on him and by relation, you understand the other characters.

It is for this reason that I can buy that Jack doesn't kill Walt in the desert. There is a sick and twisted empathy in Todd that is completely off base with reality. You can see the fringes of where he got this by watching Jack's decisions.

[Bridgeburners]

I want to mention that the nazis themselves are not a complete driving force. They have been led by Walter in most of their major feats. Walter trained Todd to cook, giving them an entry into the meth business. He showed them where Andrea lives, telling them about her relationship with Jesse. He gave them the exact coordinates of his location asking them to bring their armed forces to help him. While you have to suspend disbelief for them in many cases, they're still mainly the consequences of Walter's actions. They always had that military power that they do, but they can thank Walter for all the intelligence and leverage they have gathered.

[Bronn Stone]

i think that this audience may be missing the truth of the WS characters. In the end, all their ink means they are lifer criminals. The modern American prison system leads to prison gangs. If a white criminal wants to survive in a maximum security prison, he has two choices - be abused by the latino or black gangs, or join the only white one - the Aryan Brotherhood. All one can determine for certain is that these men chose to not be raped by Latino or Black prison gangs.

We never see any signs of supremacist ideology from these guys - except maybe for their willingness to kill Andrea last night just to send a message to Jesse. Maybe there are ideologues among them, maybe not.

Lastly, Bridgeburner is wrong about the white prisoners gang. They became a truly dangerous armed gang as a result of Lydia's actions, not Walt's. They never showed any sign of that capability until she paid them to do so. Unless you subscribe the (common hereabouts) theory that Walt is responsible for every snowflake that results from every drop of water that flows by him on its way to the sea.

[Reposado]

These have to be the most politically correct neo-Nazis I've ever seen. The only reason we know they're neo-Nazis is because of the swastikas and SS tattoos. As far as their behaviour and dialogue goes, they're just like ordinary criminals. You'd think some of them would have made a racist comment on murdering a latino woman in the last episode, or expressed some joy about them taking over meth business in the region from the Mexicans.

but really, that's for the best. that side of them is not part of the story. i'm sure they have plenty of racist moments. but we only see what is relevant to our plotline. its the same thing as wondering why they seem monolithic, etc.

all of that is really being confused by the fact that hank never eats breakfast.

im sure hank eats breakfast most mornings. im sure the neo nazis say racist stuff/have racist agendas. im sure the neo nazis have internal conflict. its just at this point, none of that has been relevant for us.

and im glad issues like racism arent tossed in. issues should really be explored or ignored. not lightly touched on. (largely anyways)

snip

yes

[Bridgeburners]

i think that this audience may be missing the truth of the WS characters. In the end, all their ink means they are lifer criminals. The modern American prison system leads to prison gangs. If a white criminal wants to survive in a maximum security prison, he has two choices - be abused by the latino or black gangs, or join the only white one - the Aryan Brotherhood. All one can determine for certain is that these men chose to not be raped by Latino or Black prison gangs.

We never see any signs of supremacist ideology from these guys - except maybe for their willingness to kill Andrea last night just to send a message to Jesse. Maybe there are ideologues among them, maybe not.

Lastly, Bridgeburner is wrong about the white prisoners gang. They became a truly dangerous armed gang as a result of Lydia's actions, not Walt's. They never showed any sign of that capability until she paid them to do so. Unless you subscribe the (common hereabouts) theory that Walt is responsible for every snowflake that results from every drop of water that flows by him on its way to the sea.

Okay, but what I mentioned a la Walter's contribution to the WS actions were all direct intervention. He directly taught Todd how to cook, directly showed them where Andrea lives and her relationship to a guy against whom they would want to use collateral, and directly brought them to where he and Hank were. He even probably introduced Todd to Lydia in the hopes that they can continue the operation without him. Sure, Lydia did some things too, like set up the ambush on Declan's guys and gave them a motivation to cook. But their actions are much more led by Walter than Lydia. She's really just their distributors, and did the one ambush for them.

I don't subscribe to the "Walt responsible for everything" idea. I don't blame him one bit for the plane crash, for example.

As with the rest of your post, yes that's a good way to see it.

[Francis Buck]

I seriously can't wait to get home just so I can re-watch this episode. I think I might like it more than Ozymandias. While not as crazy and fast-paced, there was just so much great little stuff in it, and atmospherically it was amazing.

[Honey Badger]

The reality or unreality of the show has always been well defined. When need be, the writing stretches real life until there's no way in hell this would ever happen. The rest of the time, the show is fairly believable. I don't think it matters so long as BB has shown us the limits of that reality.

i think that this audience may be missing the truth of the WS characters. In the end, all their ink means they are lifer criminals. The modern American prison system leads to prison gangs. If a white criminal wants to survive in a maximum security prison, he has two choices - be abused by the latino or black gangs, or join the only white one - the Aryan Brotherhood. All one can determine for certain is that these men chose to not be raped by Latino or Black prison gangs.

We never see any signs of supremacist ideology from these guys - except maybe for their willingness to kill Andrea last night just to send a message to Jesse. Maybe there are ideologues among them, maybe not.

Lastly, Bridgeburner is wrong about the white prisoners gang. They became a truly dangerous armed gang as a result of Lydia's actions, not Walt's. They never showed any sign of that capability until she paid them to do so. Unless you subscribe the (common hereabouts) theory that Walt is responsible for every snowflake that results from every drop of water that flows by him on its way to the sea.

This is how I view things. For all of Rockroi's complaints, there's no real examples of the WS being brainwashed doing a few Sieg Heils, they haven't made fun of any races yet, and they aren't being overt so that everyone rolls their eyes and thinks Godwin. Except for Uncle Jack's tattoo, I have no idea they're supposed to be nazis, especially with sociopath Todd. Does he even care about the ethos of Social Nationalism, dude? Say what you will about the nazis ...

[Rockroi]

For all of Rockroi's complaints, there's no real examples of the WS being brainwashed doing a few Sieg Heils, they haven't made fun of any races yet, and they aren't being overt so that everyone rolls their eyes and thinks Godwin. Except for Uncle Jack's tattoo, I have no idea they're supposed to be nazis, especially with sociopath Todd. Does he even care about the ethos of Social Nationalism, dude? Say what you will about the nazis ...

That's not my complaint; my complaint is not that the Nazis are unrealistic because they are not hateful enough; they are unrealistic because they are far too powerful, homogeneous and easy.

In fact, my additional complaint about the "Nazis" are that they are called "Nazis" thus allowing every viewer to just not have to think and just hate these people because, after all, who the HELL would like a Nazi? Nazi just feeds into my complaint- bland, mindless, etc and only called Nazi so we will know to hate them.

IG:

Actually, I found Ted's behavior to be much more realistic and believable than Walter's. Most white collar criminals are initially more delusional than outright evil. Hell, Bernie Madoff didn't set out to run a pyramid scheme; at the start, he honestly and truly believed he could make up his losses and needed a few more quarters to do so. By the time he realized he couldn't, all that was left was to keep up pretenses.

1. You have to read more about Bernie Madoff. That guy was THRILLED he was ripping people off and he never was offended if somebody wanted to give him gambling money. When the FBI came to arrest him he laughed in their faces and said that he did it and he spent all that money and there was nothing anybody would do about it.

2. That was not Ted at all. Ted was morally superior to "gambling money" and that money was to save him with NO strings attached. His refusal was based ENTIRELY in bad story-telling and force his near-death to readjust Skyler's behavior.

To Reposado and Howdywaiter: I think at this point we will be talking in circles; if anyone is really interested in my complaint and your (well thought out) responses, they can just read what we have written. And thank you HW for the kind words. Much appreciated

[Relic]

By the way, how great was the music at the end? Have we ever heard it that way before?

Nope, we haven't heard the "full version" of the opening theme. They used it SO well last night.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I'm so glad the Grey Matter thing showed up. I've always felt like Grey Matter was a large part of Walt's psyche and his feelings of inadequacy, I'm glad that they will be tied up in the finale somehow. I think the show told us how, already, though. Walt is going to use the threat of terror and corporate destruction to force them to use his money to set up a charity of some sort and the money will be funneled to the family through that. Perhaps Skyler will be picked as the CEO for the charity or some ish. Whoever shouted out using the Ricin to contaminate some of Grey Matter's products was probably spot on. I guess the x-factor here is going to be what happens when Walt and Jesse come face to face again.

I am really surprised about so many people speculating that Walter intends to use the ricin to do anything to Grey Matter. I didn't get that impression at all. The real piece of information dropped during that scene was that Blue Meth has made a reappearance, and extended as far as Europe. That's the revelation that caused Walt to realize that the White Supremacists broke their promise and haven't killed Jesse, and that's what convinced Walt to stick around just a little bit longer.

[KalibakCruel]

I am really surprised about so many people speculating that Walter intends to use the ricin to do anything to Grey Matter. I didn't get that impression at all. The real piece of information dropped during that scene was that Blue Meth has made a reappearance, and extended as far as Europe. That's the revelation that caused Walt to realize that the White Supremacists broke their promise and haven't killed Jesse, and that's what convinced Walt to stick around just a little bit longer.

I'm pretty sure that he already had his "revelation face" before they mentioned the meth popping up again. It has to deal with Grey Matter.

Edit: rewatched it, I was 100% wrong on the timing. I still think (hope) it has something to do with GM

[Winterfella]

I am really surprised about so many people speculating that Walter intends to use the ricin to do anything to Grey Matter. I didn't get that impression at all. The real piece of information dropped during that scene was that Blue Meth has made a reappearance, and extended as far as Europe. That's the revelation that caused Walt to realize that the White Supremacists broke their promise and haven't killed Jesse, and that's what convinced Walt to stick around just a little bit longer.

This. He has absolutely no intention of going after Grey Matter.

The first thing I thought of when Jack was taking the bulk of Walter's money and asking him if they were square, was how it paralleled how Walt sees himself being left out of Grey Matter, having other people profit off of his work.

If it were just the money though, I don't think Walt has the full motivation to go back. It's Jesse. Even if Walt would never admit it to himself. Which is ironic, since all of his other actions he tells himself he "did for his family", and that's not always true. In this case, he'll be telling himself he's doing it for the money, for revenge, but at the core of it, his motivation will be for the only family he has left, Jesse.