Crackpot: Tommen's gold shroud = Baratheon wedding cloak

[kiasyd]

I think it's an interesting approach. perhaps some another euphemism for Myrcella's shroud could be applied as well? Maybe another wedding?

[LadyClaudys]

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: ... I am still trying(almost give up) to figure what the hell Corn code is, but in the meantime let we have some... joy in crackpot theories...

Sorry, no Corn code...

You welcome...

I am not so certain that Tyrells would betray Tommen so easily. I mean, Aegon will most likely marry Arianne, closing the doors for Tyrells. They also have the highest positions in the court, so all in all, they could only loose by siding with Aegon.

really? for me that is the most possible scenario. I seriously doubt Aegon and Arianne will get married. Of course, i have no doubt that Arianne would like to be queen but i doubt Aegon would want to wed her. They are cousins already and Dorne will stand on Aegons side regardless of that marriage simply because that is their best option for revenge and winning the war. Aegon has plans of marrying Dany and i doubt he will give up that easily and go for the next best thing. And even if he does - when the news come to Dorne about Quentin´s death, the next best thing is Margarey not Arianne. Doran is already his uncle, he doesnt need Dorne but he needs Reach and army Tyrells have to offer him. Tyrells have already changed sides, and considering the current situation, Lannisters have nothing for them anymore. The Throne is more in their hands that in Lannisters already. With Cersei gone mad and Jaime out of the way, the poor boy has no future at all.

[Mladen]

As a charter member, I would like to formally welcome you to the Land of Crackpottery. :cheers:

Thank you so much... I am better in analyzing the text then theorizing what might happen in the future... :)

Unfortunately, the word shroud has a specific meaning that we are all too familiar with that just makes too much sense in this context.

I know, I just played with the possible semantics of shroud/cloak... Even I am not 100% certain about this, and I admit I am blinded by Tommen love :)

really? for me that is the most possible scenario. I seriously doubt Aegon and Arianne will get married. Of course, i have no doubt that Arianne would like to be queen but i doubt Aegon would want to wed her. They are cousins already and Dorne will stand on Aegons side regardless of that marriage simply because that is their best option for revenge and winning the war. Aegon has plans of marrying Dany and i doubt he will give up that easily and go for the next best thing. And even if he does - when the news come to Dorne about Quentin´s death, the next best thing is Margarey not Arianne. Doran is already his uncle, he doesnt need Dorne but he needs Reach and army Tyrells have to offer him. Tyrells have already changed sides, and considering the current situation, Lannisters have nothing for them anymore. The Throne is more in their hands that in Lannisters already. With Cersei gone mad and Jaime out of the way, the poor boy has no future at all.

Well, we are facing the Dance of dragons 2.0, which means Dany/Aegon marriage will never happen. Then, we heard about foreshadowing

regarding DoD 2.0 in Arianne's chapter in TWOW, plus we know she is heading towards him to see if he is indeed real deal

...

Then there is Quentyn's death, and possible strife between Dorne and Dany. Add to that the old agreement that Arianne and Viserys should have gotten married, and dubious Aegon's legitimacy, Aegon/Arianne marriage seems quite likely. Also, Aegon is coming with 15 000 men and Tyrells and Lannisters combined have more than 100 000. Tyrells will side with Lannisters as long as they are stronger than Aegon, and at the moment they are. Aegon has no other choice then to find ally in Dorne, and I bet one of Doran's conditions will be marriage between him and Arianne. And once he is married to Arianne, the doors are closed for Margaery.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I too would love to see Tommen live to a ripe old age, surrounded by kittens and never eating beets.

Since the interpretation of "gold shall be their crowns" can plausibly mean monarch's crowns and/or golden hair, I cling to the hope that there is an alternate derivation of the word "shrouds" that can spare poor Tommen and Myrcella's lives.

[DreamSongs]

My interpretation of the prophecy has always been simply this...

Gold will be their crowns...all three children have golden hair.

Gold will be their shrouds...they will die known as Lannisters. Doesn't mean they die young or before Cersei, just means that they are acknowledged as Lannisters at the time of their death.

[Mladen]

Gold will be their shrouds...they will die known as Lannisters. Doesn't mean they die young or before Cersei, just means that they are acknowledged as Lannisters at the time of their death.

I have problem understanding this interpretation. How did Joffrey die as a Lannister? He died as Joffrey of House Baratheon... His parentage wasn't acknowledged at the time. It was more like unconfirmed rumor made by Stannis.

[DreamSongs]

I think it's an interesting approach. perhaps some another euphemism for Myrcella's shroud could be applied as well? Maybe another wedding?

A shroud is also a veil. Myrcella lost an ear. Most likely, she will develop a fashion of wearing a veil to hide the disfiguration.

[DreamSongs]

I have problem understanding this interpretation. How did Joffrey die as a Lannister? He died as Joffrey of House Baratheon... His parentage wasn't acknowledged at the time. It was more like unconfirmed rumor made by Stannis.

Unconfirmed rumor, yes. But this is Westeros and I have my own crackpot theories :D And we as readers know the truth. As long as we know, then the prophecy can be interpreted through our own knowledge.

[Mladen]

A shroud is also a veil. Myrcella lost an ear. Most likely, she will develop a fashion of wearing a veil to hide the disfiguration.

Nice... I like this...

Unconfirmed rumor, yes. But this is Westeros and I have my own crackpot theories :D And we as readers know the truth. As long as we know, then the prophecy can be interpreted through our own knowledge.

I am sorry but I don't think it works that way. Yes, some prophecies will come to happen without participants knowing about prophecy, like Jon and PTWP/AAR. But, in this case, I am not certain we can apply that same rule. Prophecy has been said to Cersei, the one that is supposed to hear the prophecy...

[Ygrain]

That's an interesting idea, and I quite like the ambiguity of the word "shroud", in its meaning something that covers/conceals, not necessarily refering to burial. Joffrey didn't have a golden shroud, did he? Though, he was buried in his golden armour, so that might probably count. What about Myrcella and Tommen, though? Why should either be buried in something golden? I'd be inclined to think that the prophecy was figurative - both the golden crowns and shrouds referring to them being concealed Lannisters - but in combination with the rest of the prophecy, I think that Maggy indeed meant that they would die. The only chance for poor Tommen, IMHO, is Maggy misreading the visions the way we have seen with Mel.

[Blede]

And you think this is a crackpot theory ? Man, you have incredibly high standards Mladen, I would call it perfectly legitimate and valid...

I don't agree on the Baratheon wedding cloak because Joffrey used a Lannister crimson cloak, why would the prophecy be right for Tommen and wrong for Joffrey ?

I think the "shrouds" of the prophecy are actual burial shrouds, but I agree with Mladen about the children's death: the prophecy never states they will die before Cersei. She could "drown in tears" because they are taken away from her, or because she's about to be executed, or for a myriad other reasons.

My interpretation of the prophecy is slightly different: gold will be their shrouds means they will never be acknowlegded as Lannisters, and they will die as Baratheons. If they are acknowlegded as Lannisters their shrouds would be crimson (the Lannister colours are gold on crimson).

[MRHD]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the "shroud" for either Tommen or Myrcella (or maybe even both) doesn't turn out to be what we'd expect it to be (and especially what Cersei expects it to be, since she's wrong about so much).

[ductastic]

Nice theory you put together here, I really like the word shroud not necessarily referring to, well, the actual one. :) I always believed that a lot of aspects from the prophecy become reality because Cersei desperately tries to forestall it and thereby fulfill it. So there's a bit of hope for Tommen. I'd also love to see Tommen surviving the series, he's such a sweet kid and would have definitely made a decent king in his own right if the right people guiding/advising him. Unfortunately, he seems to be doomed to die and might it just happen when Aegon takes KL.

[Tenshi]

I think it's an interesting approach. perhaps some another euphemism for Myrcella's shroud could be applied as well? Maybe another wedding?

My suspicion is that Myrcella will be killed on her way back to King's Landing and buried, making the prophecy come true and sending Cersei to seek comfort in Jaime's hands. Later, Dorne will reveal the real Myrcella. No such luck for Tommen, though.

After all, Myrcella is not as cute as Tommen, and she's been mutilated. That radically improves her survival chances in books like these ;).

[Mladen]

That's an interesting idea, and I quite like the ambiguity of the word "shroud", in its meaning something that covers/conceals, not necessarily refering to burial. Joffrey didn't have a golden shroud, did he? Though, he was buried in his golden armour, so that might probably count. What about Myrcella and Tommen, though? Why should either be buried in something golden? I'd be inclined to think that the prophecy was figurative - both the golden crowns and shrouds referring to them being concealed Lannisters - but in combination with the rest of the prophecy, I think that Maggy indeed meant that they would die. The only chance for poor Tommen, IMHO, is Maggy misreading the visions the way we have seen with Mel.

Thanks, my friend... I came up with idea while rereading Sansa chapters, and when I saw that word "shrouded" is used, I tried looking for it on different places and other meanings. And when I realized that Martin used it as something cloaked/concealed/covered, I thought this theory might have a chance. I think we might see the same thing as with Melisandre and "Renly" at Blackwater. I mean, visions are not that specific. Maggy could have seen three children with great golden cloth, such as wedding cloak, and interpret it as death... And there is that possibility she was just messing with Cersei, because she was unkind to her...

And you think this is a crackpot theory ? Man, you have incredibly high standards Mladen, I would call it perfectly legitimate and valid...

When it comes to my work, bar is extremely high... :). But, nevertheless, thanks...

I don't agree on the Baratheon wedding cloak because Joffrey used a Lannister crimson cloak, why would the prophecy be right for Tommen and wrong for Joffrey ?

Because Joffrey's shroud was his golden armor, and Tommen is his wedding cloak... I think that shrouds are not the same for all three children...

[Ygrain]

Thanks, my friend... I came up with idea while rereading Sansa chapters, and when I saw that word "shrouded" is used, I tried looking for it on different places and other meanings. And when I realized that Martin used it as something cloaked/concealed/covered, I thought this theory might have a chance. I think we might see the same thing as with Melisandre and "Renly" at Blackwater. I mean, visions are not that specific. Maggy could have seen three children with great golden cloth, such as wedding cloak, and interpret it as death... And there is that possibility she was just messing with Cersei, because she was unkind to her...

"Shroud of mystery" definitely doesn't mean that the mystery is dead, either :-) I cannot see why the second meaning of "shroud" is disputed so much when it is clearly stated in dictionaries. I've been familiar with it for years, ever sine Tolkien's Unfinished Tales where he speaks about the Palantíri being "shrouded" so that they don't see the whole time.

[louzeyre]

Definition of shroud in English (according to the Oxford English Dictionary)

noun

• 1a length of cloth or an enveloping garment in which a dead person is wrapped for burial:
  
  • he was buried in a linen shroud
    

  [*]technical a protective casing or cover.

• 2a thing that envelops or obscures something:
  
  • a shroud of mist
    
  • they operate behind a shroud of secrecy
    

• 3 (shrouds) a set of ropes forming part of the standing rigging of a sailing vessel and supporting the mast from the sides.
  
• (also shroud line) each of the lines joining the canopy of a parachute to the harness.
  

verb

[with object]

• 1wrap or dress (a body) in a shroud for burial.
  

• 2cover or envelop so as to conceal from view:
  
  • mountains shrouded by cloud
    
  • the mystery that shrouds the origins of the universe
    

Personally I would love it if each of the Cersei’s children a different kind of golden shroud. I don’t think that will be the case. I suspect that all three will die, but if there is an alternate interpretation, I can’t help but it will be less literal. Perhaps something along the lines of the gold of Lannister obscuring the truth about their birth (or if you want to reach into even further into the crack pot that the gold hair of their hair obscures something about their birth…).

Or, you know, Tommen could will turn pirate and have golden colored riggings as his trade mark.

[DreamSongs]

Or, you know, Tommen could will turn pirate and have golden colored riggings as his trade mark.

I LOVE THIS IDEA!!!!

[Red Raven]

I like the idea that they'll die known as Baratheons (in gold shrouds) and that their Lannister paternity, while widely snickered about, won't be publicly confirmed. They could die in short order or live to ripe old ages (though that seems unlikely).

I also like the idea that Cersei's obsession and misinterpretation of a prophesy she should have ignored will set events in motion that will result in her children being removed from the throne, one way or another. A self-fulfilling prophesy,

[Pearlthegirl]

I'd like to be hopeful with you Mladen, for the children! And NOT Joffery!

First I think Maggy's prophecy is one of the most accurate in the series, without the usual double-speak or riddling. That said, the kids can still have three types of "shrouds" to allow this prophecy to share a shade of trickery like the rest.

Joff's was a burial shroud. Yay!

Tommen's can be his Baratheon cloak. I can dig it. And..

.

A shroud is also a veil. Myrcella lost an ear. Most likely, she will develop a fashion of wearing a veil to hide the disfiguration.

Problem solved for the two more innocent Lannisters! But that still doesn't mean problem solved for Cercei (Yay!). There are lots of children who die in this series only to turn out NOT dead. All Cercei needs to to is believe her children are dead. And Cercei believes many and more things that aren't true, doesn't she?