Jaime Lannister, good or bad.

[KhalPwno]

Do you think that Jaime is a 'good' guy or a 'bad' guy. Personally I think he is one of the most interesting characters in all of Asoiaf but I would like to know your opinions.

[Gneisenau]

I don't really see ASOIAF characters in good or bad, but just as parties with conflicting goals. Of course I do like some characters more than others, and yes I like Jaime.

[bpsae325]

Like Davos said, his parts are mixed. Pushing Bran was bad, boning his sister was bad, but killing Aerys, though many people view this as horrible, saved 500,000 lives, so I look at that as good. The way he ended the sieges of Riverrun and Raventree also point to him being good, as he ended them quickly with no unnecessary loss of life. He will be remembered as a villan no matter what, but I think he is more good than bad.

[Winter King]

I think this is one of the best things about asoiaf; there are seemingly no good or bad characters. All characters have questionable moments and good moments, we both understand and fail to comprehend their actions alternatively, which is what makes things so difficult. Jaime certainly seemed bad at times, but also he seems to want to better himself.

I also personally do not think that his relationship with Cersei was that bad (controversial perhaps). He did seem to genuinely love her, and yet was also manipulated by her. If anyone was to blame for that, it seems to be Cersei; she was the one who seemed to want to spite Robert.

[JonnSnow]

Why do we have to characterize Jaime as a good or bad guy.

He is neither. Even GRRM has said so.

His arch is not a typical to any hero or villain in any other novel.

We still have to see where he ends up.

He seems to be on track to for redemption but you never know what GRRM has in store for that character

[David Selig]

He's clearly a scumbag.

[Sansa_Stark]

Grey.

[Dornish Whine]

lol. Get ready for a sh*tstorm.

Jaime love/hate threads are a frequent occurrence and people's opinions are greatly divided. As others have stated it is hard to categorize most of the characters in ASOIF as 'good' or 'bad' as they are all various shades of grey.

Jaime is impulsive and his impulsive actions have had both positive and negative results. He also feels that his honor has been lost beyond hope and so feels no need to adhere to ideals of honor as no one will respect him regardless.

Pushing Bran out the window was pretty evil, but I could easily argue the point that Jaime had no other choice and had Bran died it may have saved many many lives. It may have even saved House Stark from the destruction it has endured. Jaime's attack on Ned's men in King's Landing was a somewhat meat-headed reaction to Tyrion's capture, but Jaime was doing the only thing he knew how to do to try and resolve a difficult situation. Jaime faces everything with bravado and attempts to cow his enemies into submission, or failing that, run a sword through their bowels.

At least that was the old Jaime. One handed Jaime is learning, slowly, how to be more like his father and brother in using his wits. His time with Brienne has shown him that his honor may not be beyond redemption. If he continues exercising diplomacy and not allowing his temper to be baited, he could turn out to be quite beneficial to the realm.

[Nicklas Black]

1) Stupid for falling in love with his damn sister

2) Stupid for thinkin any woman's love is worth more than the life of an innocent child

3) Dumb as fuck for not realising from the beginning that Cersei is a vicious cunt

[Minsc]

Dark Grey

[Dornish Whine]

1) Stupid for falling in love with his damn sister

2) Stupid for thinkin any woman's love is worth more than the life of an innocent child

3) Dumb as fuck for not realising from the beginning that Cersei is a vicious cunt

I am not sure I really want to get drawn into this debate again... but I am compelled...

1) I get the distinct feeling that Cersei has been manipulating Jaime since they were children. Her vanity, twisted sexual feelings (sex as a woman's weapon), and lack of empathy/moral compass has made her want to possess Jaime. It was foolish to fall in love with her, of course. But "you can't chose who you love"

2) It was perhaps not a woman's love, but rather the safety of his family. He knew Robert would have killed Cersei, Joffery, Myrcella, Tommen, and Jaime (if he could) should Robert ever find out the truth. Tywin would have been disgraced and a war would have begun between House Lannister and pretty much the rest of the realm. Their secret had to remain a secret or it would have meant the loss of Casterly Rock and the destruction of their house.

3) Isn't this just a variation of point #1? I think so. Also, I think he does realize she is .. viscious. This is likely one of the factors that ensnared him to begin with when they were children. Had he ever said 'no' to Cersei or tried to end the incestuous relationship, she would have exacted some horrid vengeance.

[The Wolves]

He's evil like tries to murder a child because he was caught fucking his sister/queen evil

[David Selig]

Had he ever said 'no' to Cersei or tried to end the incestuous relationship, she would have exacted some horrid vengeance.

That's a new excuse, I think. So Jaime stayed with Cersei partly out of fear, is that what you say? Seems very unlikely, he didn't fear anything.

[Minsc]

2) It was perhaps not a woman's love, but rather the safety of his family. He knew Robert would have killed Cersei, Joffery, Myrcella, Tommen, and Jaime (if he could) should Robert ever find out the truth. Tywin would have been disgraced and a war would have begun between House Lannister and pretty much the rest of the realm. Their secret had to remain a secret or it would have meant the loss of Casterly Rock and the destruction of their house.

Jaime wasn't thinking about any of that when he pushed Bran. Seeing how he considers his children nothing more then a squirt in Cersei's cunt. Moreover, Tywin wouldn't be in danger unless he idiotically decided to go to war against the entire seven kingdoms.

[Dornish Whine]

He's evil like tries to murder a child because he was caught fucking his sister/queen evil

Evil like sacrifices his honor and endures the undying disrespect of the whole realm to save the entire population of King's landing from a mad man.

[Raksha the Demon]

I don't think that Jaime is the most evil character in the series, but he is not a good man. He is an immoral person who has done one purely altruistic deed in his life - saving Brienne. (killing Aerys to stop the wildfire blowup was not an act of altruism, since Jaime was at risk for incineration as well). And I don't recall Jaime implying that he was at all worried about his children when he tried to murder Bran Stark; he thought primarily of Cersei and probably somewhat about his own neck.

I do enjoy reading Jaime's chapters; since he does have a certain amount of wit and irony in his narrative.

[Sansa_Stark]

I don't think that Jaime is the most evil character in the series, but he is not a good man. He is an immoral person who has done one purely altruistic deed in his life - saving Brienne. (killing Aerys to stop the wildfire blowup was not an act of altruism, since Jaime was at risk for incineration as well). And I don't recall Jaime implying that he was at all worried about his children when he tried to murder Bran Stark; he thought primarily of Cersei and probably somewhat about his own neck.

I do enjoy reading Jaime's chapters; since he does have a certain amount of wit and irony in his narrative.

Didn't he also save Pretty Pia and a few others at Riverrun?

[Minsc]

Evil like sacrifices his honor and endures the undying disrespect of the whole realm to save the entire population of King's landing from a mad man.

He basically only got a mocking nickname which is hardly a mighty sacrifice, and he only got that because of his own stupid stubborn pride.

[Dornish Whine]

Jaime wasn't thinking about any of that when he pushed Bran. Seeing how he considers his children nothing more then a squirt in Cersei's cunt. Moreover, Tywin wouldn't be in danger unless he idiotically decided to go to war against the entire seven kingdoms.

That's a new excuse, I think. So Jaime stayed with Cersei partly out of fear, is that what you say? Seems very unlikely, he didn't fear anything.

Thank you, I strive for originality ;) The only way i can explain Jaime and Cersei is if Jaime was suffering from a sort of Stockholme syndrome. Cersei was holding him emotionally hostage in her desire to possess him.

Jaime wasn't thinking about any of that when he pushed Bran. Seeing how he considers his children nothing more then a squirt in Cersei's cunt. Moreover, Tywin wouldn't be in danger unless he idiotically decided to go to war against the entire seven kingdoms.

Tywin practically went to war because his least favorite child had been kidnapped. You don't think he would have gone to war if Robert had killed Cersei, Jaime, and the heir(s) to the throne?

[Dornish Whine]

He basically only got a mocking nickname which is hardly a mighty sacrifice, and he only got that because of his own stupid stubborn pride.

I think the 'Kingslayer' reputation goes a bit beyond a mocking nickname. Every single person he meets looks at him with disdain. His parlay with the Blackfish pretty explicitly shows us what the realm thinks of Jaime Lannister.

_oh double post... bad form. My apologies_