Theon better-than-you Greyjoy

[TheMaxx]

I signed up on the forums after stalking them for a long time because I felt that desire everyone has to put their opinions out there for others to see and comment on =)

Wanted to know, who here believes as I do that Theon Greyjoy's actions were understandable considering everything in his life, his past, who he learned from, etc etc?

[Flig]

I can "understand" them, but he's still a massive douchenugget.

[Dicer]

What actions are you talking about?

[I'll pay the iron price]

Theon is a victim of his own father.Sent away as Ned Starks ward as a kid because of a war his Father started. His mad quest at Winterfell was his doomed way of trying to prove himself to his father.

[Flig]

Theon is a victim of his own father.Sent away as Ned Starks ward as a kid because of a war his Father started. His mad quest at Winterfell was his doomed way of trying to prove himself to his father.

And Cersei is a victim of a chauvinistic society. But she's still a paranoid loony.

And Gregor is a victim of debilitating migraines and a possible brain tumor. But he's still a monstrous...monster.

And Sandor is a victim of an abusive brother and a hypocritical society. But he's still a generally bad dood.

And Sam is a victim of an emotionally distant father who threatened to kill him. But he's still...oh wait he turned out okay.

And Brienne is a victim of a chauvinistic society. But she's still...oh wait she turned out okay.

And Ser Duncan the Tall is a victim of a society that leaves it's poor and orphaned to fight in the streets. But he's still...oh wait he turned out okay.

[TalalOfDorne]

I think Theon did the right thing when he chose his family over the Starks. I will never forgive him for what he did to the millers boys though.

[TheMaxx]

All his actions. All he's done. To me its highly understandable. Specifically about his actions in the North (silly campaign to begin with IMO) which I thought was a pressure situation he simply didn't have the experience to handle.

And he is nowhere near as bad as Cersei who I believe is just plain bad.

[TheMaxx]

Hmm interesting point about Sam turning out okay despite his asshat of a father, but remember that Sam had a loving relationship with his sisters and mother at least. And then he had that rare puppy like innocence which in Westeros is just, well, rare. I don't buy the Brienne example, though; nothing really unique about the chauvinistic society example because all women in Westeros live in it. Not really much of a scarring past for her.

Now Theon's situation; brothers bullied him and from what little we hear of his time on Pyke he was not really a happy kid, then he got taken away from home and his mother to Winterfell. He had good treatment in Winterfell but, importantly, no father figure or mother figure, just one brother figure in Robb. Nobody to give him those long 'this is wrong, don't do it' talks which while incredibly obvious to us contribute a very important emphasis on good and wrong to the child's mentality.

Theon's time in Winterfell was like living in a hostel with few rules. I mean apart from chat with Robb and train with swords and lie with whores what else did Theon really do? No character building or anything.

Then Robb goes to war and Theon loves the part he has as friend to a King; you can tell his excitement at participating in war (boasting of almost fighting Jaime at the Whispering Wood). Then he gets sent as envoy to the Iron Islands and is expecting a big welcome from his race and enjoys the idea of having them join Robb; if they did it would remove a lot of his inner conflict about having to 'take a side'.

Then his dad acts like an asshole, his sister decides it is appropriate to take advantage of the fact he hasn't seen her in 10 years and seduces him and his proposal gets rejected. Then he gets desperate to prove himself to his family and goes to Winterfell, essentially a noob in war and such affairs and does something reckless and magnificent at the same time by taking it.

Then he knows he is fucked. Asha refuses to keep men there and he now knows, no way out for me. Stuck between Northmen. In the heat of this situation which no noob would be able to take he does something abominable and has the two innocent kids killed and passes them off as Starks.

Up till now, I can see why he did all this stuff.

[jon stark I]

Theons problem is that he doesn't remember or know his people at all.He doesn't know who is his sister when he saw her.He never had a family reunion in his entire life.As we understand not even once his father or his sister visited him.All his life he thought his family would be like Stark family.A loving family who would tell their children bed time stories like Ned did to his children.

Theon because of his status as a ward always felt as an outsider.Theon in his early life was thought of the Old way(the old ironborn way) but he was also thought the Northern or Stark way of life.It is clearly seen in his time in winterfell after he captured it.He made a great legendary act but he still didn't know how to treat WF people but he also wanted to prove himself to his people which ended up him making stupid choices.

Theon realizes his mistakes after all the torture but he doesn't realize this because of the torture he starts to see clearly for the first time.He remebers how his brothers treated him when he was young and he understands he had no important value in his faters or his sisters eyes.Noone comes to rescue Theon he is left in a prison to be tortured day after day.I think that is when he realized that Robb and Starks were his real family.He understands that Robb trusted him more then anyone ever did.

I pity Theon I do really.But all the horrible things he has done it is really hard to forgive him.He is a kinslayer(milers kids one of them was probably his son).I pity him and love reading his chapters (more then Dany chapters actually any other character is more interesting then Dany) but I don't really forgive him.As Stannis said a good act doesn't absolve someone from a bad one.(I am not a SStaniis fan)

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I can "understand" them, but he's still a massive douchenugget.

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[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Theons problem is that he doesn't remember or know his people at all.He doesn't know who is his sister when he saw her.He never had a family reunion in his entire life.As we understand not even once his father or his sister visited him.All his life he thought his family would be like Stark family.A loving family who would tell their children bed time stories like Ned did to his children.

Theon because of his status as a ward always felt as an outsider.Theon in his early life was thought of the Old way(the old ironborn way) but he was also thought the Northern or Stark way of life.It is clearly seen in his time in winterfell after he captured it.He made a great legendary act but he still didn't know how to treat WF people but he also wanted to prove himself to his people which ended up him making stupid choices.

Theon realizes his mistakes after all the torture but he doesn't realize this because of the torture he starts to see clearly for the first time.He remebers how his brothers treated him when he was young and he understands he had no important value in his faters or his sisters eyes.Noone comes to rescue Theon he is left in a prison to be tortured day after day.I think that is when he realized that Robb and Starks were his real family.He understands that Robb trusted him more then anyone ever did.

I pity Theon I do really.But all the horrible things he has done it is really hard to forgive him.He is a kinslayer(milers kids one of them was probably his son).I pity him and love reading his chapters (more then Dany chapters actually any other character is more interesting then Dany) but I don't really forgive him.As Stannis said a good act doesn't absolve someone from a bad one.(I am not a SStaniis fan)

is there any proof one of the millers kids was his son

[TORMUNDSMEMBER10]

Everyone slates him, but choosing between friends and family is a fucking hard choice, who here has never wanted to make their parents proud? yes he chose wrong but he realises it and IMO is the most tragic character in the series

[King Robert's Warhammer]

Theon should have been thanking all the Gods that he was raised with the Starks.

Ultimately though his instinctive Greyjoy shitegobliness shone through.

[jon stark I]

is there any proof one of the millers kids was his son

Well if I am not mistaken he says one of the kids could have been his or one of the kids is in the right age to be his.And also he says he slept with her freuquently.

[Born Sinner]

Theon should have been thanking all the Gods that he was raised with the Starks.

Ultimately though his instinctive Greyjoy shitegobliness shone through.

he wasn't raised he was held hostage. The Starks were nice to him and all but aside from maybe Robb no one ever really loved him. In the end he decided for his real family which is compeletely understandable.

[Northernmonkey]

Siding with his family over the Starks was understandable, but deciding to take Winterfell and installing himself as Lord was a completely unacceptable act of top-notch arseholery. The Starks would have understood him siding with the Greyjoy's, but taking over the place they grew up together (which was entirely his own decision) is just rubbing it in their faces.

[Robin the Mighty]

I think Theon did the right thing when he chose his family over the Starks. I will never forgive him for what he did to the millers boys though.

When I read a chapter I try to relate to that character as much as I can and frankly I would have done the same thing...

[Neilos]

he wasn't raised he was held hostage. The Starks were nice to him and all but aside from maybe Robb no one ever really loved him. In the end he decided for his real family which is compeletely understandable.

The Starks showed him more respect than the Greyjoys ever did. Even Theon recognises this eventually.

[jon stark I]

Well if you want to see how Boltons Lannisters and Targeryans(dany) treat their hostage/prisoners then you would hear the sound of sweet reason.And since Theon admitted Starks were more of a family then his own I think this debate is pointless

[The Marquis de Leech]

Well if I am not mistaken he says one of the kids could have been his or one of the kids is in the right age to be his.And also he says he slept with her freuquently.

Theon is 20 during ACOK. The Millers boys are 8 and 4, respectively. For the eldest child to be his is crackpot territory, since we know Theon had other girls prior to the Miller's Wife, and it is inconceivable that an 11 year old could be shagging that widely. As for the younger child, Theon would have been 15, which is certainly do-able, but he remembers "tumbling her a time or two" - which doesn't suggest frequency.

What Theon did to those children was awful, yes. It's easily his worst act, even if it was committed out of sheer desperation at the urging of another. Unfortunately, the real reason Theon gets bashed around here isn't the children - it's his alleged betrayal of the Starks. Which is, of course, nonsense, since Theon owed the Starks nothing.