Theon better-than-you Greyjoy

[jon stark I]

Theon is 20 during ACOK. The Millers boys are 8 and 4, respectively. For the eldest child to be his is crackpot territory, since we know Theon had other girls prior to the Miller's Wife, and it is inconceivable that an 11 year old could be shagging that widely. As for the younger child, Theon would have been 15, which is certainly do-able, but he remembers "tumbling her a time or two" - which doesn't suggest frequency.

What Theon did to those children was awful, yes. It's easily his worst act, even if it was committed out of sheer desperation at the urging of another. Unfortunately, the real reason Theon gets bashed around here isn't the children - it's his alleged betrayal of the Starks. Which is, of course, nonsense, since Theon owed the Starks nothing.

Theon owed Starks nothing?Really?I mean really?

[Consigliere]

And Robb. Robb, who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.

At the time his reasoning for taking Winterfell is understandable however the murder of the millers boys is not. Technically Theon did not owe the Starks anything but in his heart, as the above quote demonstrates, he believes that he did in fact betray Robb. His misplaced loyalty has ended up costing him everything, including his identity.

[Twist]

Theon is a difficult character, I pity him, but don't like him at the same time. On the one hand he's arrogant, cocky and selfish. Then when he finally meets his father again he's quite pathetic and overly eager to prove himself and please this grumpy old git, but goes against his commands then takes out his anger in a bunch of innocent people and kills 2 kids just to save face. Whether his arrogance was actually a front to hide his insecurities and feelings of abandonment, not belonging and being unloved, I don't know... and have his horrendous experiences at the hands of ramsey changed him, or made him realise what he's lost, or filled him with regrets, or just sent him mad? I think grrm will put him out of his misery sooner rather than later. I find his are the most difficult povs to read, so won't miss them.

[Robin the Mighty]

What is happening to theon is not happening because of his actions, but because of those of others. In theon we have the man that does not now where he belongs.

Firstly his father, Balon, who declared himself king years after robert's rebellion, thinking his rule was fragile, stupid Balon forgot that 5 major houses backed his rule, it was more than enough to destroy the iron isles... In this suicide mission his first sons died, living him with only two children. And one of this is taken away of him and he is left with a girl, which he starts to see as a boy. He even forgets about Theon until he comes back and instead of being happy that his son is back he treats him badly in a stupid passive-aggressive behavior, because he thinks his son has been weakened by the greenlanders. Even though that was true he did nothing to help him, he forgot what was reason and made Theon choose between his family and those that ''fostered'' him during this time. The choice was obvious for both, but it still hurt theon and make him throw away the theon of the last 10 years. Then he gives him a job that is not worth doing, showing theon that he thinks nothing of him again, pusing him in a stunt that will cause horrible thing to theon.

Secondly we have the starks, even though their impact did not manifest short-term like Balon's one, but long term in caused theon a lot of damage... Eddard took him as a prisoner of war, it was widely known, but raised him as his ward, which caused theon to not know his place, he came of age and was still in Winterfell... Eddard should have exchanged Theon for Asha when or shortly after he turned 16 and should have treated him differently, basically brain-washing him. Not doing that made theon feel happy, that is true, but slowly it made him a Stark and this will echo in hi later years.

We also have Ramsay, but he did nothing to the inner battle between the two theons, but added Reek... It will be very interesting to see how theon develops in the next books...

[ductastic]

What Theon did to those children was awful, yes. It's easily his worst act, even if it was committed out of sheer desperation at the urging of another. Unfortunately, the real reason Theon gets bashed around here isn't the children - it's his alleged betrayal of the Starks. Which is, of course, nonsense, since Theon owed the Starks nothing.

:bowdown: Totally agree with you. It's like saying a kid owes his/her kidnapper anything just because they had a bed, to eat and drink. Like for real?! At most, he betrayed Robb and that is something Theon acknowledges in ADWD. There are enough reasons to dislike Theon: his killing of the Miller's boys, his treatment of Kyra and using her as a object of exchange to get Dreadfort men from Ramsay, his killing of Farlan even though he knows he had no hand in the killings of any of the Ironborn in WF and his treatment of WF's smallfolk in general.

[Minsc]

Theon owed Starks nothing?Really?I mean really?

Why does anyone owe anything to their former captors?

I consider it ridiculous to negatively judge for going with his blood family over the Starks. However, he was still objectively wrong when he allowed Ramsay to kill the Miller's children.

[Sullen]

Up until the killing of the Miller's Boys, Theon was above any reproach.

Choosing his family over his captors was the right thing to do.

[The Holy Goat]

I understand everything Theon does, be it siding with the Greyjoys, capturing Winterfell or killing the miller's kids, but that doesn't stop him from being an arrogant, selfish, asshole in A Clash of Kings. I still liked him though.

[Fat Mac]

Theon owed Starks nothing?Really?I mean really?

Yes really. They gave him a decent home, but he was still their prisoner. Ned would be willing to execute him at any time I think if Balon was going to start up some rebellious actions.

[Frey Pie]

What Theon did to those children was awful, yes. It's easily his worst act, even if it was committed out of sheer desperation at the urging of another. Unfortunately, the real reason Theon gets bashed around here isn't the children - it's his alleged betrayal of the Starks. Which is, of course, nonsense, since Theon owed the Starks nothing.

Catelyn: "winterfell may have need of all its swords soon and they had best not be made of wood."

Theon Greyjoy put a hand on the hilt of his blade and said, 'My lady, if it comes to that, my House owes yours a great debt.'

Seems Theon himself feels he owes the Starks something

[Frey Pie]

Yes really. They gave him a decent home, but he was still their prisoner. Ned would be willing to execute him at any time I think if Balon was going to start up some rebellious actions.

I have no problem with Theon choosing the Greyjoys.

However, Ned being ready to kill Theon does not make any sense. If anything hed look after him even better, and once Balon was torn down he would have set Theon to rule the isles.

Ned: Resigns from his position to attempt to save Dany

Hides his sisters child as his own so his head wont be taken

Gives Cersei the heads up hes onto her because he doesnt want Tommen and Myrcella to die

Swallows his pride and honor to save his own children by admitting falsely to treason

How does he in anyway come across as a person ready to kill a child?

If anything Ned is defined by his will to help/save children.

My take on Theon and Ned

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/92907-my-house-owes-yours-a-great-debt/

[The Wolves]

I don't feel any sympathy for Theon but I can get where he is coming from up until taking Winterfell and killing two kids to save face.

I didn't like his reason for taking Winterfell it felt like he thought having Winterfell would automatically make him a Stark and that he tried to show the people of Winterfell he could be as great a ruler as any Stark of Winterfell. I just don't care for his motivations for taking Winterfell.

[Bluesnow]

I can "understand" them, but he's still a massive douchenugget.

Pretty much my thoughts....

My first read through I wanted to torture Theon personally (before Ramsay got to him first).

Second read through I payed more attention to the life and actions he chose... and I found that all of his actions had a very legitimate reason- it is still wrong... but even Theon recognizes what he did was wrong... its not as if he's gone on with his life cursing the gods for what happened... its almost like part of him accepted Ramsay as punishment for his mistakes- or at least it gave him a long time to be retrospective about his actions and figure things out.

The only thing he repeatedly makes excuse for is killing the Miller's children which...

if you agree with the theory of those children probably being his own, and him being a kinslayer... is less excuses and more he was totally freaked out and feels so guilty he doesn't even want to think about it logically... he'd rather be in denial

I actually really LOVE his chapters at this point... they saved ADWD for me... I actually had a difficult time reading the last book because there were many POVs that I just wanted to rip out of my book and burn xD

But everytime I got exasperated there was a wonderfully written Theon chapter to save me from my insanity with his insanit!

if he dies early on in tWoW I will not be happy GRRM D=

[Minsc]

I have no problem with Theon choosing the Greyjoys.

However, Ned being ready to kill Theon does not make any sense. If anything hed look after him even better, and once Balon was torn down he would have set Theon to rule the isles.

There would be no reason for Robert and Jon Arryn to give Ned Theon if he wasn't willing to perform his duty if Balon rebelled. In how that would only weaken and undermine Robert's regime.

[Frey Pie]

There would be no reason for Robert and Jon Arryn to give Ned Theon if he wasn't willing to perform his duty if Balon rebelled. In how that would only weaken and undermine Robert's regime.

Ned is a trusted member of the ruling alliance. Furthermore he is a strong capable man, with sons close to Theons age, and can be trusted to bring him up in the correct manner.

Killing Theon makes no sense. Raising him as an ally does. If Balon rose, do you really think everyone would be stupid and petty enough to order Ned to kill Theon? What does that gain you? They are going to have to bring Balon down anyway and execute him, or banish him.

So

1. Killing Theon makes no difference to Balon

2. Killing Theon makes no sense politically

3. Killing Theon is not a sign of strength

4. Killing Theon is morally wrong

[Chaircat Meow]

If Theon didn't die when Balon rebelled Robert could never use hostages to keep the peace again.

[Minsc]

Ned is a trusted member of the ruling alliance. Furthermore he is a strong capable man, with sons close to Theons age, and can be trusted to bring him up in the correct manner.

Killing Theon makes no sense. Raising him as an ally does. If Balon rose, do you really think everyone would be stupid and petty enough to order Ned to kill Theon? What does that gain you? They are going to have to bring Balon down anyway and execute him, or banish him.

It shows off to all potential rebels that if they rebel then the Baratheon regime will have no problem executing their children that are being held hostage. Thus, deterring them from taking that risk.

[Jslay427]

I signed up on the forums after stalking them for a long time because I felt that desire everyone has to put their opinions out there for others to see and comment on =)

Wanted to know, who here believes as I do that Theon Greyjoy's actions were understandable considering everything in his life, his past, who he learned from, etc etc?

Theon Greyjoy. Not Theon Stark, as much as he and others might have wanted. He's my favorite character from any book I have ever read, while I might have been saying "nooooo don't" during his actions in Clash I know why he felt he had to do them. And you know what, I agree. Blood is thicker than water.

[jon stark I]

You guys look at this in the wrong way.Yes Starks were his captors and Stark parents were distant to him but Starks raised him as their own.The only difference between him and the Stark kids was that he lacked the direwolf as a pet.They shared the same table, they learned from the same teachers, he hunted with them and as I understand he was never short on money(he bought himself gold necklaces and all).He was a hostage but he was treated very good.Imagine if he was with Tywin or god forbid Cersei.He was honored in the Stark family by being in Robbs war counsils, he was chosen as the voice of the king(when he goes to treat with his father) but he betrayed Starks.

As far as I saw he was treated well by the Northerners as well.He would go to hunt with them, they would share their wine with him he was always welcomed.Even he remembers those memories.

Yes Theon owed nothing to Starks because they were his captors but because of the way he was treated he owes them too much.

[TheMaxx]

I actually hope Theon tells Asha to fuck off when she approaches him in the next book with whatever plans for the Iron Islands he has.