Theon better-than-you Greyjoy

[Minsc]

You guys look at this in the wrong way.Yes Starks were his captors and Stark parents were distant to him but Starks raised him as their own.The only difference between him and the Stark kids was that he lacked the direwolf as a pet.They shared the same table, they learned from the same teachers, he hunted with them and as I understand he was never short on money(he bought himself gold necklaces and all).He was a hostage but he was treated very good.Imagine if he was with Tywin or god forbid Cersei.

He was treated in the standard measure of how highborn hostages are treated when not held by sociopaths like Joffrey or Ramsay.

[zamieo]

Yes really. They gave him a decent home, but he was still their prisoner. Ned would be willing to execute him at any time I think if Balon was going to start up some rebellious actions.

No, he wasn't their prisoner. If you're a prisoner, you're locked in a cell. I'm pretty sure Theon was free to go how and where he wanted, to a certain degree. He was a hostage, who was treated far more gently than he truly deserved (to the point where the Stark children see Theon as something akin to a brother, or at the very least a cousin). And most of all; he owed them his life. Robert could've easily put the Greyjoys to the sword, put Stannis or someone else in control of the Iron Islands and torched Pyke. Instead, the Greyjoys were spared (and Ned probably played a big part in that, knowing him) and Theon, along with his father, his sister and his mother, was allowed to live.

[TheMaxx]

No, he wasn't their prisoner. If you're a prisoner, you're locked in a cell. I'm pretty sure Theon was free to go how and where he wanted, to a certain degree. He was a hostage, who was treated far more gently than he truly deserved (to the point where the Stark children see Theon as something akin to a brother, or at the very least a cousin). And most of all; he owed them his life. Robert could've easily put the Greyjoys to the sword, put Stannis or someone else in control of the Iron Islands and torched Pyke. Instead, the Greyjoys were spared (and Ned probably played a big part in that, knowing him) and Theon, along with his father, his sister and his mother, was allowed to live.

I agree he owed it to the Starks for treating him so well, but just curious about your words 'than he truly deserved' what exactly do you mean here? That an innocent 9 year old deserved what exactly after his dad screwed up and caused him to become a hostage?

[Minsc]

No, he wasn't their prisoner. If you're a prisoner, you're locked in a cell. I'm pretty sure Theon was free to go how and where he wanted, to a certain degree. He was a hostage, who was treated far more gently than he truly deserved (to the point where the Stark children see Theon as something akin to a brother, or at the very least a cousin).

So you think innocent 9 year olds deserve to forcibly removed from their parents, siblings, other relatives, friends, and home to be raised in a distant land where they are under the constant threat of execution because their father is a bad man?

Moreover, the Starks treated in the traditional and norm for how highborn hostages are treated thus it was hardly some exceptional kindness.

And there is no proof that Ned helped spare Balon, Theon, Asha, etc from Robert's wrath. Seeing how Robert is directly mentioned to be highly forgiving to his enemies that aren't Targaryens.

[TheMaxx]

So you think innocent 9 year olds deserve to forcibly removed from their parents, siblings, other relatives, friends, and home to be raised in a distant land where they are under the constant threat of execution because their father is a bad man?

Moreover, the Starks treated in the traditional and norm for how highborn hostages are treated thus it was hardly some exceptional kindness.

And there is no proof that Ned helped spare Balon, Theon, Asha, etc from Robert's wrath. Seeing how Robert is directly mentioned to be highly forgiving to his enemies that aren't Targaryens.

This is 100% correct.

[Masamune]

I've heard people refer to Theon, or specifically his story arc as "tragic". However, for the tragedy to work, the character usually must fall from grace to begin with (e.g. MacBeth). Theon was introduced as a dick-weed from the very first chapter and proven to have VERY few likable traits. His misogyny, even in the repressive society of Westeros, is repulsive, and this is established long before his downfall at Winterfell. I can certainly understand Theon's conflicted nature but only to a POINT. For instance, had he been a true friend to Robb, he would not have seized Winterfell. That was the ultimate insult to the North and one entirely of his own doing. The Ironborn didn't want Winterfell and it wasn't part of their conquest, however, Theon directly disobeyed orders in order to capture it, such was his audacity to become the 'Prince of Winterfell'. Everything that followed exposed Theon for the cretin he really was. It cannot be argued that he was loyal to his own team. given that he betrayed the Ironborn who took part in the Bran/Rickon conspiracy. A double-turncloak, at that.

[Frey Pie]

It shows off to all potential rebels that if they rebel then the Baratheon regime will have no problem executing their children that are being held hostage. Thus, deterring them from taking that risk.

And there are many heirs of potential rebels being held by loyalists? And the whole annihilation of the actual leader and armies of the rebellion wouldnt be more of a deterrent then chopping the head off an innocent child?

[jon stark I]

So you think innocent 9 year olds deserve to forcibly removed from their parents, siblings, other relatives, friends, and home to be raised in a distant land where they are under the constant threat of execution because their father is a bad man?

Moreover, the Starks treated in the traditional and norm for how highborn hostages are treated thus it was hardly some exceptional kindness.

And there is no proof that Ned helped spare Balon, Theon, Asha, etc from Robert's wrath. Seeing how Robert is directly mentioned to be highly forgiving to his enemies that aren't Targaryens.

He had to be removed from his fathers influence.And again you are looking at it from a modern perspective.For example Timur the mongolian khan took Yıldırım the ottoman(osmanlı) and his son as hostages.

[Minsc]

And there are many heirs of potential rebels being held by loyalists? And the whole annihilation of the actual leader and armies of the rebellion wouldnt be more of a deterrent then chopping the head off an innocent child?

People don't rebel if they think they are going to lose. However, with the Baratheon regime executing their child hostages that would mean even if they are victorious then they still lose as how their child has been killed off.

Simply, we already know that the killing of child hostages is considered a viable tactic within their society (as seen in the interactions between the Starks and Mountain Clans) for Ned to refuse to kill Theon would undermine that entire tactic for the brand new regime. Thus, he wouldn't be trusted with the task if he wasn't willing to do his duty as order to ensure the strength of the Baratheon regime.

[Twist]

Up until the killing of the Miller's Boys, Theon was above any reproach.

Umm... how about the deplorable way he treated the girl on the ship in the way to the iron islands? He seems to treat women as though they were merely objects for his own gratification who should count themselves lucky that they have the pleasure of having sex with/performing sexual acts in him. And didn't he kill a number of people in winterfell before killing the miller's boys, like mikken for example? Simple people, not soldiers who were just trying to defend their castle.

[TheMaxx]

I've heard people refer to Theon, or specifically his story arc as "tragic". However, for the tragedy to work, the character usually must fall from grace to begin with (e.g. MacBeth). Theon was introduced as a dick-weed from the very first chapter and proven to have VERY few likable traits. His misogyny, even in the repressive society of Westeros, is repulsive, and this is established long before his downfall at Winterfell. I can certainly understand Theon's conflicted nature but only to a POINT. For instance, had he been a true friend to Robb, he would not have seized Winterfell. That was the ultimate insult to the North and one entirely of his own doing. The Ironborn didn't want Winterfell and it wasn't part of their conquest, however, Theon directly disobeyed orders in order to capture it, such was his audacity to become the 'Prince of Winterfell'. Everything that followed exposed Theon for the cretin he really was. It cannot be argued that he was loyal to his own team. given that he betrayed the Ironborn who took part in the Bran/Rickon conspiracy. A double-turncloak, at that.

Disagree with the first part; you don't have to fall from grace to be tragic. And Theon was an arrogant teenager, not a Ramsay or Joffrey. Pretty big difference in scale here.

And how was taking Winterfell his own doing completely? He clearly wanted to do it to impress his dad. I was indeed angry at his whole acting like the Prince of Winterfell thing but to me it seemed like a show he was putting on with himself as the audience, to push the impending doom of his situation out of his mind. He was deluding himself, intentionally.

He betrayed Robb in a very rushed decision taking place under circumstances he wasn't used to at all. If he sided against Balon I wonder what names people would call him then; kinslayer, traitor etc etc.

[Minsc]

He had to be removed from his fathers influence.And again you are looking at it from a modern perspective.For example Timur the mongolian khan took Yıldırım the ottoman(osmanlı) and his son as hostages.

Even in Westeros's society, he wasn't treated better then his station.

And didn't he kill a number of people in winterfell before killing the miller's boys, like mikken for example? Simple people, not soldiers who were just trying to defend their castle.

You don't think any smallfolk were killed during any of Robb's attacks on the Westerlands and so forth? Sadly enough, that is how war is handled in Westeros against the smallfolk. Also, IIRC Mikken didn't idiotically keep verbally attacking the recent conqueror of Winterfell thus he kind of brought it upon himself.

[Twist]

When have I ever said robb is above reproach? The subject was theon not doing anything questionable before killing the miller's boys. He could have locked up mikken.

[zamieo]

So you think innocent 9 year olds deserve to forcibly removed from their parents, siblings, other relatives, friends, and home to be raised in a distant land where they are under the constant threat of execution because their father is a bad man?

Moreover, the Starks treated in the traditional and norm for how highborn hostages are treated thus it was hardly some exceptional kindness.

And there is no proof that Ned helped spare Balon, Theon, Asha, etc from Robert's wrath. Seeing how Robert is directly mentioned to be highly forgiving to his enemies that aren't Targaryens.

Well, I meant from the POV that he's a hostage, not from a philosophical and moral POV.

Theon was treated like a normal highborn hostage? Oh, you mean like Jaime Lannister? Oh, you mean like Willem Lannister and Tion Frey? You mean like Greatjon Umber? And so forth, and so forth. Granted, they were prisoners of war, but so was Theon, and they were treated more like hostages than Theon ever was.

Well, they don't blurt out that Ned helped spare the Greyjoy's, but seeing as Theon claim that the Greyjoys owe the Starks, seeing how Ned acts in general, his part in shutting the rebellion down and his friendship with Robert, everything points towards Ned having at least a hand in sparing them, don't you think? Or you could see it from your perspective "no proof = impossible that it happened".

[TheMaxx]

Well, I meant from the POV that he's a hostage, not from a philosophical and moral POV.

Theon was treated like a normal highborn hostage? Oh, you mean like Jaime Lannister? Oh, you mean like Willem Lannister and Tion Frey? You mean like Greatjon Umber? And so forth, and so forth. Granted, they were prisoners of war, but so was Theon, and they were treated more like hostages than Theon ever was.

Well, they don't blurt out that Ned helped spare the Greyjoy's, but seeing as Theon claim that the Greyjoys owe the Starks, seeing how Ned acts in general, his part in shutting the rebellion down and his friendship with Robert, everything points towards Ned having at least a hand in sparing them, don't you think? Or you could see it from your perspective "no proof = impossible that it happened".

Looking from a moral standpoint, Jaime, Greatjon and co had all done stuff to hurt the cause of the people who took them hostage; Jaime killed some Northmen in battle, Greatjon fought and killed some Freys in the red wedding.

Theon really didn't do anything like that, he was 9.

[Masamune]

Disagree with the first part; you don't have to fall from grace to be tragic.

Yes, you do. Tragedies are designed to elicit sympathy for their protagonist. That's why I don't believe Theon to be a tragic character, because I had little to no sympathy for his downfall.

And Theon was an arrogant teenager, not a Ramsay or Joffrey. Pretty big difference in scale here.

I never mentioned Ramsay or Joffrey. If you're aware of a sliding scale of evil, then you would know not to use such an exaggerated juxtaposition. Those two might be loathsome on a different level to Theon, but that does not make his own atrocities any less despicable in their own right.

And how was taking Winterfell his own doing completely?

Because it was his idea? His orders did not involve the capture of Wintefell. However, his nose was pushed out of joint by Asha's capture of Deepwood Motte and so had to be a bigshot and take his former home. You could argue that 'all's fair in love and war', but this does still speak volumes for Theon as a person that he was willing to commit the ultimate betrayal of his so-called 'brother' for the sake of sibling rivalry.

He betrayed Robb in a very rushed decision taking place under circumstances he wasn't used to at all. If he sided against Balon I wonder what names people would call him then; kinslayer, traitor etc etc.

I'm not suggesting he shouldn't have supported his family, that point is still debatable. Only had he possessed a ounce of respect for Robb, his first instinct would not have been to seize Winterfell and take the people he loved hostage.

[drunken giant]

In GOT when Theon saves Bran Robb says "how about we chain you in the yard and let Bran take practise shots at you " or something like that i thought that was well to harsh started feeling sorry for him then

[TheMaxx]

Yes, you do. Tragedies are designed to elicit sympathy for their protagonist. That's why I don't believe Theon to be a tragic character, because I had little to no sympathy for his downfall.

I never mentioned Ramsay or Joffrey. If you're aware of a sliding scale of evil, then you would know not to use such an exaggerated juxtaposition. Those two might be loathsome on a different level to Theon, but that does not make his own atrocities any less despicable in their own right.

Because it was his idea? His orders did not involve the capture of Wintefell. However, his nose was pushed out of joint by Asha's capture of Deepwood Motte and so had to be a bigshot and take his former home. You could argue that 'all's fair in love and war', but this does still speak volumes for Theon as a person that he was willing to commit the ultimate betrayal of his so-called 'brother' for the sake of sibling rivalry.

I'm not suggesting he shouldn't have supported his family, that point is still debatable. Only had he possessed a ounce of respect for Robb, his first instinct would not have been to seize Winterfell and take the people he loved hostage.

What are you talking about, 'atrocities' what atrocities did Theon commit when he was 9 years old? You mentioned he was a 'dickweed' from the get go, and then mention his atrocities to prove he was a dickweed. Which makes no sense because he didn't commit any before he was taken hostage.

[Frey Pie]

People don't rebel if they think they are going to lose. However, with the Baratheon regime executing their child hostages that would mean even if they are victorious then they still lose as how their child has been killed off.

Simply, we already know that the killing of child hostages is considered a viable tactic within their society (as seen in the interactions between the Starks and Mountain Clans) for Ned to refuse to kill Theon would undermine that entire tactic for the brand new regime. Thus, he wouldn't be trusted with the task if he wasn't willing to do his duty as order to ensure the strength of the Baratheon regime.

Actually how do we know that this is his task? How are we so sure that it isnt to raise Theon to become the next Lord of Pyke, and ensure he is a strong ally of the throne

It goes completely contrary to Neds character to kill an innocent child for the wrong doing of his father. This is shown to us over and over again in the text. Ned swallows his duty and honor in the face of doing the right thing over and over again also. I don't see how such a strong facet of who Ned is is not being taken into account in this matter

[Jrogo]

I do feel sorry for him because of how horrible his father was to him and I understand that he wanted to prove himself, but I still think he was being stupid. He should have just done what his father told him to do. You have to admit, his actions caused a lot of horror