Theon better-than-you Greyjoy

[Jon of the Dead]

Something interesting about the tragedy of Theon is that he uses the hostage thing as an excuse or justification for taking Winterfell, but when he threatens to hang Beth Cassel, he realizes that what he's saying is true: the Starks had a noose around his neck his whole life and it really affected him. I think his whole smiling at things, his whoring around, his attitude of superiority were like the armors he would put on to forget that he was actually a prisoner with an implicit death sentence hanging over his head if Balon rebelled

[Minsc]

Actually how do we know that this is his task? How are we so sure that it isnt to raise Theon to become the next Lord of Pyke, and ensure he is a strong ally of the throne

Why would Jon Arryn create a situation that demonstrates the weakness of the Baratheon regime(they won't kill their child hostages) after their first rebellion? Simply, why would he undermine a time honored tradition just so Ned can feel happy about himself? As if they did that it would weaken the entire strategy of taking child hostages in the first place.

Theon was treated like a normal highborn hostage? Oh, you mean like Jaime Lannister? Oh, you mean like Willem Lannister and Tion Frey? You mean like Greatjon Umber? And so forth, and so forth. Granted, they were prisoners of war, but so was Theon, and they were treated more like hostages than Theon ever was.

Theon wasn't a prisoner of war as there wasn't a war going on during his captivity. Moreover, the George himself has said Theon's treatment was the norm.

Well, they don't blurt out that Ned helped spare the Greyjoy's, but seeing as Theon claim that the Greyjoys owe the Starks, seeing how Ned acts in general, his part in shutting the rebellion down and his friendship with Robert, everything points towards Ned having at least a hand in sparing them, don't you think? Or you could see it from your perspective "no proof = impossible that it happened".

Not really, especially seeing how your proof is simply "it could have happened." It is directly mentioned that Robert was highly forgiving of his enemies(excluding the Targaryens) thus it would reason that he wasn't planning to go all kill happy on the Greyjoys. Not to mention how nobody in the story ever mentions Ned saving their lives at any point.

[David Selig]

Actually how do we know that this is his task? How are we so sure that it isnt to raise Theon to become the next Lord of Pyke, and ensure he is a strong ally of the throne

If that was Ned's task, he failed miserably in it. IIRC Theon didn't even set foot on a ship in all his years in the North. Anyone with the slightest clue about the Ironborn culture should've known this meant he'd never be accepted as the Lord there.

[SadRelicOfThePast]

The whole plan regarding the Millers children originated with Reek/Ramsey. He spoonfed the plan to Theon, who would have never thought about that on his own, it was pure Ramsey, right down to flaying the skin of the faces.

[Born Sinner]

The Starks showed him more respect than the Greyjoys ever did. Even Theon recognises this eventually.

Still. They weren't his real family. Everyone wants attention from their father so did Theon.

[Jslay427]

Nm

[Allyria Dondarrion]

A wise man once said: if you want to see a man for what he really is, pay attention to how he treats his inferiors. Theon is a duche. And a stupid one at that (killing people to appear 'cool', common!). Of course, he's a notch better than good old Jeoffrey. But again, who isn't?

Being fostered by the Starks was probably the best thing that has ever happened to Theon. Unless you consider beating by the elder siblings and finger-cutting games a marvellous childhood everyone dreams about.

Let's be clear, Ned was ready to take Theon's life should he be forced by the circumstances (sounds so unusual in Westeros?), hence his being somewhat cold and distant with the kid. But everyone else wasn't! After taking Winterfell Theon executed some people he knew almost all his life, who hadn't been treating him like a hostage at all.

I think some people misunderstand the purpose of Theon's character. He's designed to divide the opinions: he's a villain who gets his retribution, only we are in his head. His POV only shows us that everyone suffers the same, regardless of their origin or past crimes. Here, to my mind, we as readers should ask ourselves a question: Is his punishment justified? Or is it too much? Did he deserve it?

My answer is yes, he did. Only in the perfect world retribution comes from a hero, not from Ramsey. The later fact clouds the judgement and confuses. Theon seems better in contrast with the beast that is the bastard of Bolton.

People begin to extrapolate Theon's new status of the victim on all his life.

Daddy didn't love him, nobody taught him to distinguish right and wrong... Come on! Upbringing works only until a certain age.

At 20 any person is expected to be responsible for his/her choices and actions.

Theon didn't betray 'cold' Ned, he betrayed his friend Rob. He stood and watched while his former lover watched her sons die before being killed herself. He killed his ironborn because they knew how 'uncool', stupid and weak he really was.

[Minsc]

Being fostered by the Starks was probably the best thing that has ever happened to Theon. Unless you consider beating by the elder siblings and finger-cutting games a marvellous childhood everyone dreams about.

Rodrick and Maron were dead thus they really couldn't beat him anymore. And notice how Asha seems quite content and happy with her life, thus it isn't like Balon was having his children repeatedly beaten. Thus, quite frankly it could be all possible that he would end up pretty much okay if he stay on the Isles with family and friends.

[Masamune]

What are you talking about, 'atrocities' what atrocities did Theon commit when he was 9 years old? You mentioned he was a 'dickweed' from the get go, and then mention his atrocities to prove he was a dickweed. Which makes no sense because he didn't commit any before he was taken hostage.

I said Theon was introduced that way in the books. e.g. when he laughs and kicks Gared's decapitated head. Also, several of the POV characters in the first book (Jon, Bran, Catelyn) all have reservations about Theon which extend beyond the fact he's a ward. The only person who had any faith in him was Robb, and look how he repaid him.

[Minsc]

I said Theon was introduced that way in the books. e.g. when he laughs and kicks Gared's decapitated head.

I like how people act like this so terrible, yet it seems like very few judge Ned for executing Gared.

Lets not also forget about how in AGOT he also saves Bran's life.

[jon stark I]

You always do this Minsc you judge by modern moral values.Ned couldn't let Gared go.And we as readers know that WW threat is real but you can't seriously believe that Ned would have took it seriously.Benjen is the first ranger if there was something like that Benjen would have known or better Halfhand would have known(halflhand spent most of his time in wildling lands and it was winter when he was there).Blaming Ned for beheading Gared is like being angry at the hangman.Whether the Hangman hangs the man or not it is irrelevent if hangman doesn't do his part then some other hangman would do.

[Minsc]

You always do this Minsc you judge by modern moral values.

Not really, I am just mentioning that when it comes down to it kicking someone's head isn't that big of a deal. Moreover, quite a number of things that Theon is criticized wouldn't been seen as terrible in Westeros society. For example, I hardly doubt most Westeros nobles would care about Theon sleeping around with a number of women.

[Masamune]

I like how people act like this so terrible, yet it seems like very few judge Ned for executing Gared.

Ned was doing his duty. He didn't derive any pleasure from it, nor did he disrespect the dead.

Lets not also forget about how in AGOT he also saves Bran's life.

A reckless move and not one Theon did out of the goodness of his heart, I might add.

[jon stark I]

Sleeping with women part never bothered me I mean they are both adults but if he forced them to do it then it is disgusting.The really annoying part is Theons disrespect to everyone.He kicks Gareds head, he thinks some naughty stuff while he was sleeping with Kyra these are morally disgusting but not that important.But him killing Milers boys and milers wife, threatening to kill Beth killing Mikken..... I can go on like this.

[Minsc]

A reckless move and not one Theon did out of the goodness of his heart, I might add.

Seeing how Robb's alternative was even stupider I don't hold the "recklessness" against him. Yes, how terrible was it for him to save his friend's little brother and then expect Robb to show some appreciation.

nor did he disrespect the dead.

No, he just killed him. And I doubt that Ned was going to give some proper burial anyways.

threatening to kill Beth killing Mikken..... I can go on like this.

You mean doing a similar act to what the Starks did to him? Aka take a child hostage and threaten to harm them if their parent didn't comply to his wishes? Didn't you just say you shouldn't judge him by modern standards?

Similarly, Mikken was an idiot who kept fighting back after Theon took Winterfell. Commonsense, would tell you that would be idiotic and you risk being executed to serve as an example. Thus, once again by Westeros standards that would be acceptable.

[Masamune]

Seeing how Robb's alternative was even stupider I don't hold the "recklessness" against him. Yes, how terrible was it for him to save his friend's little brother and then expect Robb to show some appreciation.

Because Theon was inches away from hitting Bran with that arrow. Robb didn't feel it was Theon's position to take that shot and had to dress him down for it as the acting Lord of Winterfell. Anyway, let us not get sidetracked here. Theon saving Bran is small potatoes compared to the crimes he's committed.

No, he just killed him. And I doubt that Ned was going to give some proper burial anyways.

Ned doesn't write the laws of Westeros, but he's a man of honour and its his job to punish deserters. This has little relevance to Theon choosing to play football with the dead guy's head. You're really on a hiding to nothing with this argument.

[Minsc]

Because Theon was inches away from hitting Bran with that arrow. Robb didn't feel it was Theon's position to take that shot and had to dress him down for it as the acting Lord of Winterfell. Anyway, let us not get sidetracked here. Theon saving Bran is small potatoes compared to the crimes he's committed.

Seeing how the other plan was killing Grey Wind and Summer then giving up his sword and hoping the deserter allows him and Bran go free I would say Theon made the right choice. Simply, Robb was being a dick.

And kicking some dead dude's head is a complete irrelevancy, yet you are acting like that is some terrible deed.

[Masamune]

Seeing how the other plan was killing Grey Wind and Summer then giving up his sword and hoping the deserter allows him and Bran go free I would say Theon made the right choice. Simply, Robb was being a dick.

I repeat, I'm not getting sidetracked. I feel Robb's reaction was justified, as Theon took Bran's life into his own hands quite recklessly whether he missed or not. This one scene doesn't override the obnoxious nature of the character before he even officially betrayed the Starks. In some ways it endorses it considering how indifferently Theon treated Bran after it had happened.

And kicking some dead dude's head is a complete irrelevancy, yet you are acting like that is some terrible deed.

It establishes Theon as a douche-bag, a sentiment echoed by Jon at the time.

[Sullen]

Umm... how about the deplorable way he treated the girl on the ship in the way to the iron islands? He seems to treat women as though they were merely objects for his own gratification who should count themselves lucky that they have the pleasure of having sex with/performing sexual acts in him. And didn't he kill a number of people in winterfell before killing the miller's boys, like mikken for example? Simple people, not soldiers who were just trying to defend their castle.

Mistreating Boatgirl was bad by modern standards, but I doubt anyone would have batted an eye in the context of the universe.

As for taking Winterfell, he actually went out of his way to prevent serious losses. And I'm pretty sure Robb, and even Ned, would have executed an enemy soldier insulting them the way Mikken insulted Theon.

[Twist]

Mistreating Boatgirl was bad by modern standards, but I doubt anyone would have batted an eye in the context of the universe.

As for taking Winterfell, he actually went out of his way to prevent serious losses. And I'm pretty sure Robb, and even Ned, would have executed an enemy soldier insulting them the way Mikken insulted Theon.

Not every man is misogynistic in westeros, which suggests that actually some would bat an eyelid at theon's complete lack of respect for women.

Mikken is not a soldier. And where is the evidence that Robb or Ned would kill someone for talking back to them? Execution for breaking vows/oaths etc yes, but there's no evidence of either of them killing someone for perceived cheek.