Theon better-than-you Greyjoy

[Minsc]

Not every man is misogynistic in westeros, which suggests that actually some would bat an eyelid at theon's complete lack of respect for women.

Ned is one of the most honorable and good characters in the series, yet despite this he is best friends and looks up to Robert Baratheon a man that makes Theon look downright progressive towards women.

No, instead Mikken was a smartass smallfolk that seems intent to insulting the enemy commander that just seized the castle which he resides in. Simply, he was too stupid to live in that regards. Quite frankly, seeing how sackings are normally described in the series Theon was downright merciful just reread Cersei's description of what will happen if Stannis took King's Landing.

[Twist]

Ned is one of the most honorable and good characters in the series, yet despite this he is best friends and looks up to Robert Baratheon a man that makes Theon look downright progressive towards women.

Does Ned look up to Robert? If he does then it's to Robert in battle rather than Robert's behaviour towards women. And I'm sorry but it's bs that Robert's treatment of women makes theon look progressive, they both mistreated women, if there were any sort of sliding scale for treatment of women then theon would certainly never be on the progressive side.

No, instead Mikken was a smartass smallfolk that seems intent to insulting the enemy commander that just seized the castle which he resides in. Simply, he was too stupid to live in that regards. Quite frankly, seeing how sackings are normally described in the series Theon was downright merciful just reread Cersei's description of what will happen if Stannis took King's Landing.

The enemy commander in this case was a child he saw grow up on no doubt a pretty much daily basis, there aren't many characters who conquer a place that used to be home to them so its difficult to draw parallels with other characters because theon is fairly unique in that sense.

And of course how silly of me, mikken deserved to die because he was low born and talked back how dare he.

My point was theon was not above reproach before killing the miller's boys, he had other failings that made him at least grey when it comes to morals and I still stand by that.

[Minsc]

The enemy commander in this case was a child he saw grow up on no doubt a pretty much daily basis, there aren't many characters who conquer a place that used to be home to them so its difficult to draw parallels with other characters because theon is fairly unique in that sense.

And of course how silly of me, mikken deserved to die because he was low born and talked back how dare he.

How does Mikken knowing the enemy commander that he is insulting make his actions any smarter? No, but that helps one understand the idiocy of his actions in how the nobles generally don't care about the smallfolk and are unlikely going to allow them to get away with attempting to undermine them in front of their men. Thus, that being something that probably all of the military commanders that have taken a city/castle/fort/whatever would have done or allowed when their men where sacking the place.

[TheMaxx]

Mikken put Theon in a tough spot. If he had let all Mikken's insults go unpunished he would become even more unpopular a figure among his men.

[Twist]

Joffrey had abuse shouted at him and responded with "kill them all!" No one with any sense seems to think that was a good idea. But when it's theon he was above reproach, it was a perfectly sensible reaction?

Mikken put Theon in a tough spot. If he had let all Mikken's insults go unpunished he would become even more unpopular a figure among his men.

Oh, poor theon, I must be missing something here, you're saying he was the victim in this situation?

So a young man should allow himself to be influenced by what basically surmounts to asoiaf's equivalent of peer pressure. Nice to know it turned out so well for him... oh wait, it didn't.

[The Marquis de Leech]

A reckless move and not one Theon did out of the goodness of his heart, I might add.

Theon can't win, can he? When he saves Bran's life (yes, saves: there was no other option), it gets treated as irresponsible glory-seeking. If he hadn't tried to save Bran, he'd have been castigated for not trying to save the boy's life. He's in a no-win situation. Just like some readers expect Theon to betray his own family, just because the Starks are designated good guys.

Frankly, Robb's argument is ridiculous, and simply a reflection of Robb bashing others for his own mistakes: he does it again with Edmure. Theon backing his skill in archery was the only way out of that mess - it was a necessary gamble.

[TheMaxx]

Joffrey had abuse shouted at him and responded with "kill them all!" No one with any sense seems to think that was a good idea. But when it's theon he was above reproach, it was a perfectly sensible reaction?

Oh, poor theon, I must be missing something here, you're saying he was the victim in this situation?

So a young man should allow himself to be influenced by what basically surmounts to asoiaf's equivalent of peer pressure. Nice to know it turned out so well for him... oh wait, it didn't.

Nobody's saying he was a victim. He was the ruler of that situation with a constant threat of mutiny from his men if he did not maintain a certain level of strictness towards his foes.

[Erkan12]

Yes taking Winterfell when he was not commanded so and after that killing innocent kids is understandable. He was more stupid than his father and he deserve what he get. I can understand he choose his father but Winterfell thing has no logical explanation. Starks treat him like honorable guest, and he pay with treachery...

Rodrik: For ten years you have been a ward of Stark

Theon:Hostage and prisoner, I call it.

Rodrik: Then perhaps Lord Eddard should have kept you chained to a dungeon wall. Instead he raised you among his own sons, the sweet boys you have butchered, and to my undying shame I trained you in the arts of war. Would that I had thrust a sword through your belly instead of placing one in your hand.

Ramsay's best job in his life...

[TheMaxx]

Yes taking Winterfell when he was not commanded so and after that killing innocent kids is understandable. He was more stupid than his father and he deserve what he get.

Probably the worst post in this thread lol

[Erkan12]

Probably the worst post in this thread lol

Sorry for your Theon (oops i should call it Reek) love....

[Phonzadellika]

For those people who think Theon betrayed the Starks:

IIRC the Greyjoys were already preparing to attack the north when Theon was sent to treat with them. Balon obviously wasn't waiting around for Theon to be returned to him in order to begin the attack.

It would have been very, very interesting to see what Robb Stark would have done to Theon if Theon had remained with him.

Robb probably wouldn't want to behead Theon but he probably also wouldn't have a choice in the manner as his bannermen would expect and even demand it. If Robb doesn't kill Theon at that point then that potentially devalues every hostage they take in their war against the Lannisters.

So, ask yourselves if you would support Robb beheading Theon for political reasons? In that same vein, is Theon still betraying Robb when he sides with his family against the Starks?

Theon may have acted douchy and made a lot of desperate decisions and few fatal ones, but I fail to see how anyone who reads the books can sit there and say that Theon betrayed the Starks.

The question that Theon should have asked himself when reflecting on his vacation with Ramsey is "why I didn't I kidnap Bran and Rickon and burn Winterfell when I had the chance," or "why didn't I take the black," instead of "Where was I when Robb Stark died."

Theon would have been in the middle of a dirt-nap during the red wedding had he not gone back to Pyke.

[Minsc]

Joffrey had abuse shouted at him and responded with "kill them all!" No one with any sense seems to think that was a good idea. But when it's theon he was above reproach, it was a perfectly sensible reaction?

There is a difference between one man(as in Theon's case) and an entire city's population(as in Joffrey's population). Honestly, all I see is this being a case where people only care because it is someone that is friendly to the Starks. As I doubt much people worry all that much about the various innocent nameless smallfolk that Robb plundered and attacked while in the Westerlands.

Starks treat him like honorable guest, and he

The Starks treated him in the standard measure of which how highborn hostages are treated in Westeros. Moreover, no matter how "nice" they did treat him he was still always a hostage against his will thus the argument he owed them anything is pure Stark fanboyism.

[Twist]

I don't see why we should blame theon's mistakes on his background when as someone else has pointed out plenty of other characters had messed up childhoods and turned out ok. At some point he has to be held accountable for his own actions. He didn't deserve the reek stuff, but he did need bringing down a peg or two.

I think some people are forgetting that as well as being a hostage he was also Ned's ward. Theon was 9 at the time. Well Ned became Jon arryn's ward at 8, he wasn't a hostage, no, but would theon have known he was a hostage and what it meant? What exactly would have been the difference in their experiences? both taken from their families and homes at a young age. There are plenty of hostages and wards throughout the books. Besides bran is only 8 when he loses the use of his legs, all of his family and I don't see him going bitter and twisted.

[Minsc]

I think some people are forgetting that as well as being a hostage he was also Ned's ward. Theon was 9 at the time. Well Ned became Jon arryn's ward at 8, he wasn't a hostage, no, but would theon have known he was a hostage and what it meant? What exactly would have been the difference in their experiences? both taken from their families and homes at a young age. .

Theon directly references that Ned was cold and distant to him (not all different from Cat's treatment of Jon, which so many people treat as awful abuse) while at the same time always fearing that one day that Ned might execute him. Neither of which, is likely to have been the experience of Ned while fostering with Jon Arryn. Moreover, it is quite likely that Ned was able to return home and have his family visit him during his fostering while Theon couldn't.

[David Selig]

I think some people are forgetting that as well as being a hostage he was also Ned's ward. Theon was 9 at the time. Well Ned became Jon arryn's ward at 8, he wasn't a hostage, no, but would theon have known he was a hostage and what it meant? What exactly would have been the difference in their experiences? both taken from their families and homes at a young age.

Living in mortal danger every day of your life through no fault of your own and being a glorified prisoner is a huge difference.

[Erkan12]

The Starks treated him in the standard measure of which how highborn hostages are treated in Westeros. Moreover, no matter how "nice" they did treat him he was still always a hostage against his will thus the argument he owed them anything is pure Stark fanboyism.

So you think Tywin would treat him same as Ned ? Or Stannis ? Theon was almost like one of his son, lived in Winterfell like a lord.

Living in Winterfell, fucking any whore he want, take the best training from Rodrik. I don't see any hostage would take this. He should be send to minor lords in north.

[Minsc]

So you think Tywin would treat him same as Ned ? Or Stannis ? Theon was almost like one of his son, lived in Winterfell like a lord.

Living in Winterfell, fucking any whore he want, take the best training from Rodrik. I don't see any hostage would take this. He should be send to minor lords in north.

The George has described his treatment as being not all that different from the norm.

[The seed is strong]

Bobby B and co could have easily gone all Reynes of Castamere on the Greyjoys when Balon rebelled but they didn't. I think Theon realized later how lucky he had been living with the Starks.

[Minsc]

Bobby B and co could have easily gone all Reynes of Castamere on the Greyjoys when Balon rebelled but they didn't.

So what? That still doesn't mean that Theon owes the Starks his allegiance above his family.

[Erkan12]

The George has described his treatment as being not all that different from the norm.

Then he is contrast himself, there are lords in Westeros like Tywin, Stannis, Walder, Roose, Randyll, Oberyn, Gregor etc..... :bs: