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i kind of feel sympathy for Tywin


The Frosted King

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He was the type of hard man who made the world a hard place. Not the other way around. Sure there where others like him, but that doesn't change te fact that he was an abysmal excuse for a human being. I positively cheered when he got bolted in the groin. A hard world indeed.

Exactly. The excuses for Tywin's countless atrocities disgust me.

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Sympathy for Tywin? LOL. Tywin Lannister is the opposite of sympathy.

He restores his Houses glory by murder, and keeps feeding it in the same manner, but with a spice of over the top cruelty of course (See his fathers mistress). The guys idea of ruling is to keep killing threats (innocents included) until they give up, and then suddenly expect them not to hold a grudge. He has no problem in murdering an innocent woman from a house that didn't wrong him (The Martells) and her kids just to get his daughter on the Iron throne.

The monster claims he does what he does for family, and yet half of his family are the ones who despise him. Its also funny to note how he sometimes thinks that its okay to chop the heads off of some Lannisters for the good of House Lannister! After all, he certainly had no problem in seeing his son die in a battle he had no business being in. Whats baffling (Or rather expected since Tywin is a heartless hypocrite after all) is that he started a terror campaign that killed innocents to get back said son. It has been argued by a few people that Tywin was actually waiting for a trigger to move his men long before his sons arrest, but that doesnt change the fact that innocent lives had perished under him.

Even his own wife wasn't safe from him. I am now referring to her brother, who was arrested by Lady Tarbeck, along with two other Lannisters, for the arrest of her husband. Tywin had no problem signing their "death warrants" if it meant proving a point. Speaking of proving points, lets talk Tysha, the woman that his youngest son had loved and married. Tywin thought that he needed to teach his son a lesson about marrying someone below him. And what better way to do so than to drag your sons wife and have her raped under your command? If it was a sharp lesson Tywin intended, it might or might not have worked. If it was scarring his son emotionally and plant an everlasting grudge against him, BRAVO Tywin! You did well.

He wanted to shape his kids to be the best successors they can be, and we all know how that turned out. I really dont think that Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion lacked th wits or weren't up for the job. Its just that Tywins parental mistakes got them to be very inept, and by inept I mean something similar to Tywin himself. Tywins attitude of "YOU IS LANNISTER! YOU BE PROUD! YOU HAVE KILL!" is deeply planted in his children. They all basically take themselves way too seriously at some point. He wants Cersei to be a competent queen in the capital, yet how the hell is she supposed to get anything right when all he allowed her to learn from him was a large ego and unnecessary cruelty?

He doesnt want Lannisters fighting each other, yet he does nothing to try and mend the relationship between Cersei and Tyrion. in fact, all he does is enhances it. This easily backfires on him when Tyrion and Cersei are squabbling over whores in KL, and the city is about to suffer an invasion. He antagonizes his own kids to the point where one of them kills him, and the other two deeply resent him. I think the reason why his kids turned out the way they were is because they are too much like him. In my opinion, they are ALL "Tywins son" in varying degrees.

Ive said this before and I say it again: He built the house on corpses and now his own family are on the way to becoming corpses because of his leadership and parenting. He got off way too easily.

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This is a man who plays the game as every player in the game plays it. Westeros is a feudal society and violence is how you make things in a feudal society. Even if you stop playing, the other player won't and you will only have yourself to blame.

Hungry for power, very possible, but then again the realm benefited from Tywin having power before some fool so that's possibly a benefit. Secondly I don't know which book that you've read but I can tell you that Tywin isn't in for the power and he isn't doing things for the sake of power. He is doing it for his House and what he thinks is best for the Lannister collective. Just like every other head of a House does what he thinks is best for his House and its members. This is a collective society, not an individualistic, and therefor the individual is to make sacrifices for the group.

Tywin has had plenty of tough times, the problem is that he dealt with the problem and moved on. He wasn't stopped dead in the tracks or lamented over it for years. He solved the issue and went on.

So caring for what you leave behind you and how history will remember you is dickish? Any sane man and woman will wonder how their children will remember them and what others will say of them after they are gone. Its fairly normal for people coming towards their life's autumn to start to think about such things.

Even by Westerosi standards, Tywin is exceedingly cruel, harsh and vindictive.

Further, you make Tywin sound much more altruistic than he really was, IMO.

Tywin was obsessed with maintaining House Lannister's power; it was the motivation behind every decision he made. As such, claiming that Tywin did things not for the sake of power but for the good of House Lannister is a distinction without a difference.

Finally, you're correct in stating that it's not "dickish" to care about what you leave behind or what people think of you. However, what's "dickish" is the manner in which Tywin sought to accomplish these goals.

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Hungry for power, very possible, but then again the realm benefited from Tywin having power before some fool so that's possibly a benefit. Secondly I don't know which book that you've read but I can tell you that Tywin isn't in for the power and he isn't doing things for the sake of power. He is doing it for his House and what he thinks is best for the Lannister collective. Just like every other head of a House does what he thinks is best for his House and its members. This is a collective society, not an individualistic, and therefor the individual is to make sacrifices for the group.

Name one sacrifice Tywin has done for his family. Just one.

Everything he's ever done has been for his own benefit and to increase and/or support his own personal power.

I have lots of symphaty for Tywin, as people probably knows by now. He got a tough deal and had to deal with rivals and enemies from the "go", yet did so and came out ontop almost every time

Tough deal? He was born into the richest and one of the most powerful noble families in Westeros, he was his father's heir, he was appointed Hand at a ridiculously early age because he was Aerys' buddy - he had all the advantages right from the start.

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Gosh, I'm gone for a day or two and thread has exploded. Good stuff. :)

You ignore that fact that he could have stopped them without killing every member of those Houses. There are procedures for dealing with the situation short of wiping out the whole House.

Indeed there are although I would argue that there are two major types of situations with rebel lords. The first is when someone sees an oppertunity and takes a cheap shot at their liege or are joining some cause due to marriage alliance, oaths, friendship or some other honorable reason. The second is when you are intentially striving to take down your liege and spend a great deal of time to undermine and antagonize the liege. As Tyrion remarked that to much blood has been shed for a marriage to bring peace between the Lannisters and the Starks, so there is a certain point where I don't think that peace is really possible. And examples of that just beating down a House isn't enough to keep them from rising in rebellion again are the Blackfyre Rebellions. It seems to me that several Houses rose again and again, and only stopped when they were physically unable to rise in rebellion any more.

I'm not sure the Reynes and Tarbecks would've seen a mere bending of the knees as anything more than a temporally setback in their schemes to displace the Lannisters. Remember that the Reynes and Tarbecks both were all to eager to throw in with Blackfyre, although in Tarbeck's case they played both sides, and so these two families don't strike me as being the types to bend the knees and learn good behavior like that.

Right. The defining thing about Tywin is that he does not play the game the same as any other player, but he ignores the usual rules. He's looked at the rules, decided they only perpetuate the game, and decided he wants to be the only game in town, so bugger the old rules, the new rule is be shit-scared of me.

I disagree. There are few rules and people have been breaking them since before. Bloodraven for example don't seem to type to just let people bend the knees and then send them home to do whatever they like. There's a reason why he didn't stop with killing Daemon but also killed his 13 and 12 year old kids.

Hitler was a grey character too. Grossly misunderstood. Fighting in World War 1 and all. Loved his dog. Poor chap.

No, Hitler was pitched black.

He restores his Houses glory by murder, and keeps feeding it in the same manner, but with a spice of over the top cruelty of course (See his fathers mistress). The guys idea of ruling is to keep killing threats (innocents included) until they give up, and then suddenly expect them not to hold a grudge. He has no problem in murdering an innocent woman from a house that didn't wrong him (The Martells) and her kids just to get his daughter on the Iron throne.

He restores it by crushing a rebellion in a war. Secondly in a feudal world you don't answer challenges with cookies, the Martells should be able to show you more than a few things about that. Killing Elia was of course to much.

The monster claims he does what he does for family, and yet half of his family are the ones who despise him. Its also funny to note how he sometimes thinks that its okay to chop the heads off of some Lannisters for the good of House Lannister! After all, he certainly had no problem in seeing his son die in a battle he had no business being in. Whats baffling (Or rather expected since Tywin is a heartless hypocrite after all) is that he started a terror campaign that killed innocents to get back said son. It has been argued by a few people that Tywin was actually waiting for a trigger to move his men long before his sons arrest, but that doesnt change the fact that innocent lives had perished under him.

Half his family? What half? I know one Lannister who depises him and that's Tyrion. Two are to cool with him but in a huge family like that of House Lannister its impossible to be friend with everyone. Also there seems to be some confusion about the concept of a "House". A House's strength isn't the sum of the amount of happiness its members have at any given point but how their collective standing in society is.

Also in Westeros its entirely in tune with the conventional morales for Houses to go to war over slights and harms to its individual members. Examples for this are Robert's Rebellion and Robb's Stark war with Joffrey. This is how Westeros works and judging Tywin for playing by the rules already set. And guess what, people died in war, innocent people died in war in droves. They did it in the Bronze Age and they do it now. That's one of the reasons as to why war is considered a bad thing.

Even his own wife wasn't safe from him. I am now referring to her brother, who was arrested by Lady Tarbeck, along with two other Lannisters, for the arrest of her husband. Tywin had no problem signing their "death warrants" if it meant proving a point. Speaking of proving points, lets talk Tysha, the woman that his youngest son had loved and married. Tywin thought that he needed to teach his son a lesson about marrying someone below him. And what better way to do so than to drag your sons wife and have her raped under your command? If it was a sharp lesson Tywin intended, it might or might not have worked. If it was scarring his son emotionally and plant an everlasting grudge against him, BRAVO Tywin! You did well.

This is qualified BS. Joanna was never in any danger that the books tells from Tywin but rather seemed by the accounts we have to have been the dominant part in their relationship. Its more than "proving a point" its about not backing down when you are challenged by someone looking to see what you're made off. Tytos did like you seems to suggest and backed down. What he got was a full blown rebellion. That could have been stopped with a firm stance earlier.

Tysha is of course a horrible incident for which I will make no defense. But I would not think that the main thing was that Tyrion married a commoner as much as Tywin thought that she was a golddigger.

He wanted to shape his kids to be the best successors they can be, and we all know how that turned out. I really dont think that Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion lacked th wits or weren't up for the job. Its just that Tywins parental mistakes got them to be very inept, and by inept I mean something similar to Tywin himself. Tywins attitude of "YOU IS LANNISTER! YOU BE PROUD! YOU HAVE KILL!" is deeply planted in his children. They all basically take themselves way too seriously at some point. He wants Cersei to be a competent queen in the capital, yet how the hell is she supposed to get anything right when all he allowed her to learn from him was a large ego and unnecessary cruelty?

I doubt that Cersei any any real difference in her education than any other coventially raised and educated noble woman in Westeros. In this regard I'm more inclined to think its nature over nurture.

Ive said this before and I say it again: He built thehouse on corpses and now his own family are on the way to becoming corpses because of his leadership and parenting. He got off way too easily.

Can you name a single Great House which has not built itself on corpses? The Starks did it, the Tullys did it, the Arryns did it, the Baratheons, Targaryens and Martells did it. Only the Tyrells and the Greyjoy reached the position that they did in a way which was not paved with corpses. I understand that you think its a bad thing but in no way is it unconventional for Westeros.

Even by Westerosi standards, Tywin is exceedingly cruel, harsh and vindictive.

I can agree that he harsh and while I don't really agree I can see your point about being cruel.

Further, you make Tywin sound much more altruistic than he really was, IMO.

Well, I'll happily admit that I am biased in favor of him so I may be off mark.

Tywin was obsessed with maintaining House Lannister's power; it was the motivation behind every decision he made. As such, claiming that Tywin did things not for the sake of power but for the good of House Lannister is a distinction without a difference.

Well its certainly very different to work for your family's well being to work for your own personal well being. Although I will agree that as head of the House the distinctions may not be as clear as they might otherwise have been.

Finally, you're correct in stating that it's not "dickish" to care about what you leave behind or what people think of you...

I'm happy we could agree on something. :)

Name one sacrifice Tywin has done for his family. Just one.

Everything he's ever done has been for his own benefit and to increase and/or support his own personal power.

Tough deal? He was born into the richest and one of the most powerful noble families in Westeros, he was his father's heir, he was appointed Hand at a ridiculously early age because he was Aerys' buddy - he had all the advantages right from the start.

Suffering twenty years of insults and provocations from a mad king, including advances on his wife?

Everything that Tywin has made has been for House Lannister. As head of the House its fortunes are of course tied with his own but to say that he works for his personal power and glory alone is entirely wrong. If he did he would have attempted to either claim the throne or make Tommen a puppet, not try to educate him in statecraft. Like teaching him to always read any documents before signing them etc.

I would argue that Tywin had a tought deal. Being born into a House in decline lead by a weak lord bullied by his own bannermen. If it wasn't for Tywin there wouldn't have been a House Lannister at all by this point. Also he became Aerys "buddy" through his own merits. He had plenty of advantages yes, and most of the steamed from his personal competence and actually using his resources to the best ability.

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Tywin is considered an evil character, but he was a great strategist.

He was not a great warrior, he used his brains

but he lacked in education toward his children, if he had educated them more, they would probably be a bit better at least, especially Cersei, she was the only one who never saw the monster her son was. She was the only one who spoiled Joffrey and that's why he grew up to be a stupid king and a psycho.

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I would argue that Tywin had a tought deal. Being born into a House in decline lead by a weak lord bullied by his own bannermen.

Yeah, real tough. He was born only the fifth or so most privileged man in the realm and the heir of the richest one. Just horrible. Why couldn't he have been born at Flea Bottom like these lucky boys Davos and Dunk?

Suffering twenty years of insults and provocations from a mad king, including advances on his wife?

What insults? That he called him his servant? That was a simple fact, not an insult.

Besides, being the Hand gave him personal power, didn't it? There's no indication Tywin was staying at the job for the sake of his House or that he didn't enjoy the power it gave him.

If it wasn't for Tywin there wouldn't have been a House Lannister at all by this point.

You don't know that.

Also he became Aerys "buddy" through his own merits.

Well, we don't know how they become buddies, so this is just speculation. And if he wasn't born a high noble, Aerys wouldn't have ever noticed him.

He had plenty of advantages yes, and most of the steamed from his personal competence and actually using his resources to the best ability.

No, Pretty much all of his advantages steamed from his lucky birth. If he had been born in Flea Bottom, he'd have been a nobody.

If he did he would have attempted to either claim the throne or make Tommen a puppet, not try to educate him in statecraft. Like teaching him to always read any documents before signing them etc.

That's your proof? That he spent a minute educating Tommen some really basic stuff? Where was he when Joff was growing up? Why didn't he teach his own favored kids, both of whom are totally lacking in governing skills and knowledge?

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I'm not saying he was a good man, he's a grey character ofcourse, but he's mostly described through the POV's of people who hate and despise him. His siblings seemed to have an incredible lot of respect for him.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I have absolutely no sympathy for Tywin but I fully admit had he been a POV character I might have felt differently. I didn't have any sympathy for Jaime either until his POV. Then again he might really not have any redeeming qualities and be another Cersei.

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He restores it by crushing a rebellion in a war. Secondly in a feudal world you don't answer challenges with cookies, the Martells should be able to show you more than a few things about that. Killing Elia was of course to much.

He restores it by eradicating entire houses. We dont know how many innocent people died aside from the figureheads (Who were obviously guilty). And even if we scratch the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion off the list, its like taking a bucket of water from an ocean of atrocities.

Half his family? What half? I know one Lannister who depises him and that's Tyrion. Two are to cool with him but in a huge family like that of House Lannister its impossible to be friend with everyone. Also there seems to be some confusion about the concept of a "House". A House's strength isn't the sum of the amount of happiness its members have at any given point but how their collective standing in society is.

Jaime and Cersei, his kids, didnt seem to like him very much at the end of his life (And its easy to see why). We dont know about Tygett or Gerion. Yes, Kevan was in love with that monster, and Genna seems to like him for what he did when her betrothal was announced (Though he didnt treat her very well when she told him her thoughts about Tyrion).

Also in Westeros its entirely in tune with the conventional morales for Houses to go to war over slights and harms to its individual members. Examples for this are Robert's Rebellion and Robb's Stark war with Joffrey. This is how Westeros works and judging Tywin for playing by the rules already set. And guess what, people died in war, innocent people died in war in droves. They did it in the Bronze Age and they do it now. That's one of the reasons as to why war is considered a bad thing.

And its entirely in tune for Tywin to go for the disproportionate, cruel reactions when he has the chance. Jon Arryn only rebelled after the king executed innocents and demanded the heads of more innocents. And the difference between Robb and Tywin is that Robb gathered his army to march south at first, and unlike Tywin, didnt just start killing people. Again, disproportionate reaction.

This is qualified BS. Joanna was never in any danger that the books tells from Tywin but rather seemed by the accounts we have to have been the dominant part in their relationship. Its more than "proving a point" its about not backing down when you are challenged by someone looking to see what you're made off. Tytos did like you seems to suggest and backed down. What he got was a full blown rebellion. That could have been stopped with a firm stance earlier.

Before you call something BS, try to understand it. Did I ever say that Joanna herself was in danger? What I was saying in this paragraph was that Tywin is too selfish and proud to even give a damn about his relatives when they need him. When his future wifes brother was in danger, he had no problem seeing him, and two more relatives, die. And we cant know if a rebellion was going to happen. This is just speculation.

Tysha is of course a horrible incident for which I will make no defense. But I would not think that the main thing was that Tyrion married a commoner as much as Tywin thought that she was a golddigger.

And gold diggers dont deserve that treatment.

I doubt that Cersei any any real difference in her education than any other coventially raised and educated noble woman in Westeros. In this regard I'm more inclined to think its nature over nurture.

I tend to disagree. I think Tywin played a major part in her upbringing. And even if it was nature, Tywin did nothing to try and put it under control. On the contrary, his ideals actually made her, and her brothers, worse people.

Can you name a single Great House which has not built itself on corpses? The Starks did it, the Tullys did it, the Arryns did it, the Baratheons, Targaryens and Martells did it. Only the Tyrells and the Greyjoy reached the position that they did in a way which was not paved with corpses. I understand that you think its a bad thing but in no way is it unconventional for Westeros.

Youre right, its not something unconventional for Westeros. And as I said, its not unconventional for Tywin to go overboard in this. Elia and her kids, The Riverlands, his fathers mistress, Tysha. All in my opinion were unnecessary, but its out of character for him to actually not go for the bloodier/dishonorable option.

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He's a fascinating character, but I don't feel any sympathy for him at all. There are some crimes that can be explained- perhaps the Reynes did want to extinguish the Lannisters, and the murders of Elia and her children helped to put an end to RR, but he tended to go way too far with his cruelty. Instead of ordering the sack of KL, which resulted in the rape and murder of countless commoners, he could very easily have had his army just march through to city to the castle and targeted the Targs. He could have sent someone to murder Elia and her children who would do it much more humanely and quickly instead of known thugs like Loch and Gregor. Heck, Elia and Rhaenys did not even need to die to secure Robert's rule.

There is no way to give a reasonable explanation for the rape of Tysha or his horrible treatment of Tyrion. In the end, he was a petty, insecure man who never got over the relatively minor setbacks in his upbringing. Even at their worst, I can't imagine any of the Stark kids unleashing someone like Gregor to do as he pleases on innocents to make a point, and they've all been through a lot more crap than a young Tywin ever did. In the end, I'm happy that he had a disgraceful death on the toilet and that it looks like his legacy is going to crumble to ashes. A man like that who had that little regard for anyone else deserves nothing better.

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I think you can, well, i think I can, feel pity for someone even if they've done some horrible things. Tywin Lannister was a ruthless man, who, it seems placed political expediency over the love of his family. But I get the impression he was deeply ashamed of his own father, and that left him with a huge chip on his shoulder. He also clearly loved his wife, Joanna (and this is one example of where he did put love before politics. Joanna was his cousin, he could have forged an alliance with another powerful house by marrying one of their daughters, but instead he married for love, within his own family). Did Joanna's death scar him so deeply that it affected the rest of his life? I think so. It certainly doomed his relationship with Tyrion, that and the fact that he couldn't abide the idea of shame being brought on his family. Tyrion's marriage to Tysha shamed him. I'm not saying his solution to the problem was right, good or understandable. It's not. Would it really have been so bad to have provided the happy couple with a ton of cash and a one way ticket to any port in Essos as a wedding present? But i think Tywin was a bit obsessed, and thus seriously misjudged and mismanaged the affair, as well as overlooking Jaime and Cersei's relationship (although i think he did try to split them up, he dragged Cersei back to Casterly Rock when she manipulated Jaime into the Kingsguard). He seemed to have been a good Hand to Aerys until that all went pear-shaped. He was a man flawed by pride, lost love and a deep hatred of being ridiculed.

But he does treat his kids like dirt, even the ones that aren't Tyrion, he seemed to believe that killing small children and their mothers is justified by vengeance (was he motivated by Rhaegar's rejection of Cersei? Just a thought.) and war and frankly what happened to Tysha was so despicable that i think it's beyond Roose Bolton (Roose wouldn't have cared enough to bother) if not Ramsay (who'd just have set his dogs on the girl). I'm not saying he was a good or nice person, he scares the crap out of me and I did kind of cheer when Tyrion shot him on the loo...but i do think there are reasons to pity the guy. There's a difference between like and pity, but i can't quite remember that Gandalf quote on the subject...

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Yup, he must have been absolutely miserable when he died. He could never showed it, and kept taking care of business as best he could, but he's experienced a lot of tragedy.

Let's go down the list

-His beloved wife dies birthing a deformed son.

-His prized twins become the subject of disgusting rumors.

-His Queen daughter, whom he expected to act competently by following his example, was a total incompetent

-His royal grandson was a psycho

-His prized warrior son was maimed and then refused to be his heir, leading Tywin to all but disown him

-His grandson is murdered by (in his and everyone's minds) his reviled, deformed son

-He is then killed in a humiliating way by that same son, knowing that without himself around to steer the ship his entire legacy and House would probably be ruined

This is all justice for his many sins, of course. But it doesn't mean you can't feel compassion for him.

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Yup, he must have been absolutely miserable when he died. He could never showed it, and kept taking care of business as best he could, but he's experienced a lot of tragedy.

Let's go down the list

-His beloved wife dies birthing a deformed son.

-His prized twins become the subject of disgusting rumors.

-His Queen daughter, whom he expected to act competently by following his example, was a total incompetent

-His royal grandson was a psycho

-His prized warrior son was maimed and then refused to be his heir, leading Tywin to all but disown him

-His grandson is murdered by (in his and everyone's minds) his reviled, deformed son

-He is then killed in a humiliating way by that same son, knowing that without himself around to steer the ship his entire legacy and House would probably be ruined

This is all justice for his many sins, of course. But it doesn't mean you can't feel compassion for him.

I'm no Tyrion fan, but his "reviled, deformed son" couldn't help being born a dwarf, and Tywin chose to revile Tyrion, which makes him a pretty shabby person imo. Perhaps if he's shown Tyrion a bit of basic human compassion, Tyrion wouldn't have turned into such a mess. If he had ever truly recognized Tyrion's prodigious intelligence, he could have found a way to make Tyrion a useful member of the family. Instead, he chose to browbeat him, regard him with shame, and do everything in power to break him. He only made use of Tyrion's intellect when there was no one else available to him. Finally, his actions wrt Tyrion's marriage were unspeakably vile; anyone capable of doing that to a woman, and his own son, is truly inhumane. If he'd ever shown compassion for Tyrion then maybe he would be worthy of compassion too. Tyrion didn't ask to be born, to be a dwarf, or to lose his mother during his birth.

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Tywin to me has always been a fascinating character. Here's a man filled with wisdom and pragmatic thinking, but who is fundamentally incapable of overcoming a few mental blocks. These blocks constrain his otherwise effective thinking, and create his doom.

While a lot of people will call Tywin stupid for starting a war with what literally could have been every single other Kingdom in Westeros...Tywin won. That alone takes brilliance. While Tywin, like any war leader, made some tactical mistakes along the way (deploying forward to attack Roose Bolton's force, placing in command in the hands of Stafford), his diplomatic strategy and basically sound military strategy, along with basic preparedness, paved the way to victory for the Lannisters. On top of this you have his tenure as Hand, in which he was more popular than the King, ruled well, and built a strong reputation, and the basic preparedness of the Westerlands for warfare as opposed to the other regions. Tywin is able to quickly assemble and deploy a force of 35,000 men. Then, later, he raised thousands more. That's called preparedness, and the North and the Riverlands just didn't have it.

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