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yolkboy

Sapphires = Secrets

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made with J. Stargaryen

With every single mention of sapphires in the books, there is a hidden secret, relevant to that scene. This thread looks at all of them.

Sapphires = Secret

A Game of Thrones

LORAS:
"His sapphires winked in the sun as he raised his visor, smiling. The commons went mad for him."
Loras presents himself as the paragon of chivary, and the secret here is that he is engaging in gamesmanship by riding a "mare on heat" in the jousting lists, to distract his opponents horses.
Example of relevance: Loras is pretending to be honourable in the scene. The sapphire secret is that he's cheating. So the secret is relevant to this particular scene - which is the pattern that makes this so interesting. It's not random secrets.

LORAS:
"The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats"
This is another regarding that Loras' deception - but this time there's an added R+L=J catch. "Blue of the flowers" being linked to sapphires seems like a nod to the Jon Snow secret. Unsurprisingly, Ned is mentioned just before the flowers - he's keeping the secret.


LYSA:
"Lysa, freshly scrubbed and garbed in cream velvet with a rope of sapphires and moonstones around her milk-white neck, was holding court on the terrace overlooking the scene of the combat, surrounded by her knights, retainers, and lords high and low. Most of them still hoped to wed her, bed her, and rule the Vale of Arryn by her side."
Lysa wears a sapphire necklace when she's courting potential suitors/husbands - the secret being that she murdered her previous husband.


JOFFREY:
"She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate. He wore a deep blue doublet studded with a double row of golden lion’s heads, and around his brow a slim coronet made of gold and sapphires. His hair was as bright as the metal."
Joffrey is being deceptively nice to Sansa in this scene, as she is forming an opinion of him based on his 'act'. He's hiding his true self. His 'monster' is his secret.
Joffrey wearing sapphires also points at his unknowing secret concerning his true parentage. Notice the word 'sapphire' is used between the words 'gold' and 'his hair'. His golden Lannister hair was the clue that led to Ned finally realising who's child he was.


TOBHO:
“I am Tobho Mott, my lord, please, please, put yourself at ease.” He wore a black velvet coat with hammers embroidered on the sleeves in silver thread, Around his neck was a heavy silver chain and a sapphire as large as a pigeon’s egg."
This is Tobho Mott wearing a sapphire when Ned is interrogating him about Gendry. Tobho's secret here is that Gendry is Robert's bastard.


ILLYRIO:
"His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes"
This is Illyrio, during his clandestine conversation with Varys. Their partnesrship is the secret. Notice the ruby (associated with House Targaryen) is next to the sapphire - a nod to the fake Targaryen deceit of fAegon.


JAFFERS:
"Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires."
Jaffers secret here is that he is already a wight - he's been 'activated', as the blue eyes tell, and is playing dead. This might be why he can function on the Castle Black side of the Wall - he was already wighted before being taken in.


SYMEON:
“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim."
The previous catch regarding Jaffers' eyes seems like a hint that Symeon's secret might concern an 'Others connection'. They have the same eyes, blue as sapphires, perhaps Symeons weren't as literal as the singers told it.


Clash of Kings

WYLIS:
"No one ransomed the northmen, though. One fat lordling haunted the kitchens, Hot Pie told her, always looking for a morsel. His mustache was so bushy that it covered his mouth, and the clasp that held his cloak was a silver-and-sapphire trident. He belonged to Lord Tywin"
This is a play on words with the word 'morsel'. Like his father, Wylis uses his appetite and girth to his advantage, as a cover for spying etc. He is frequenting the kitchens, without suspicion, and listens to gossip - secretly spying. Tywin probably does have Wylis under control - apart from when he goes to visit the kitchens, 'looking for a morsel'. Morsel can mean gossip as well as food, 'morsel of gossip' is a phrase.


DAGMER:
“This Andrik may be a great fighter, but men do not fear him as they fear you"
“Aye, that’s so,” Dagmer said. The fingers curled around the drinking horn were heavy with rings, gold and silver and bronze, set with chunks of sapphire and garnet and dragonglass. He had paid the iron price for every one, Theon knew."

Theon reconnects with his childhood idol, Dagmer. He seems to be slightly blinded by his idealisation of his aging hero. Dagmer previously admits Andrik has a better reputation for a fighter than himself. When Theon insists that Dagmer is more feared, Cleftjaw is happy to agree, secretly knowing that perhaps Andrik is now.


A Storm of Swords

LORAS:
"Wed to Ser Loras, oh... Sansa’s breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the comer of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand"
As Sansa is daydreaming of marrying Loras, she is blissfully unaware of his secret - his homosexuality.


JAIME:
“Is every word you say a lie, Kingslayer? Tarth is called the Sapphire Isle for the blue of its waters.”
All the mentions of the Sapphire Isle and it's supposed harvest, in relation to Vargo and co., can be attributed to Jaime's secret - that the Isle wasn't actually named for it's richness in sapphires. This deceit spreads across several characters and scenes.


RENLY:
That was what he’d done, when the Starks had died before him, Lord Rickard cooking in his armor while his son Brandon strangled himself trying to save him. “Think of Renly, if you loved him. Think of Tarth, mountains and seas, pools, waterfalls, whatever you have on your Sapphire Isle, think...”
The mentions of Renly and the Sapphire Isle highlight the secret of his sexuality, that is being kept by Jaime here.


ROOSE:
"It would be unconscionable of me to deprive Lord Vargo of both his prizes.” The Lord of the Dreadfort reached out to pick another prune. “Were I you, my lady, I should worry less about Starks and rather more about sapphires."
Roose might have already secretly been planning the Red Wedding as he tells Brienne not to worry about the Starks.


JAIME:
“Take the bloody sword and go, before I change my mind. There’s a bay mare in the stables, as homely as you are but somewhat better trained. Chase after Steelshanks, search for Sansa, or ride home to your isle of sapphires, it’s naught to me. I don’t want to look at you anymore.”
This secret could be Jaime hiding his true feelings about Brienne. We later learn he has a fondness for her, and here he's claiming the opposite.


LYSA:
"Lady Lysa had dressed in a gown of cream-colored velvet and a necklace of sapphires and moonstones. Her auburn hair had been done up in a thick braid, and fell across one shoulder. She sat in the high seat watching her niece approach, her face red and puffy beneath the paint and powder. On the wall behind her hung a huge banner, the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn in cream and blue."
The second time Lysa is wearing a sapphire necklace (first is in aGoT), she is talking to Sansa about Littlefinger, stood infront of a banner of Jon Arryn. The secret this time is not only that she killed him, but the topic of conversation - Littlefinger, helped her.


GERION:
“The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords."
It's a sapphire wedding gift from a Lannister. Seems like Gerion knew about Jaime and Cersei. (credit Bright Blue Eyes)


MANCE:
“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist."
This is the only 'negative sapphire' - the no sapphires underlines Mance is sincere here. (credit Butterbumps!)


A Feast For Crows

EURON:
“The Silence returned with holds full of treasure. Plate and pearls, emeralds and rubies, sapphires big as eggs, bags of coin so heavy that no man can lift them... the Crow’s Eye has been buying friends at every hand."
Euron's secret at the King's moot is that he hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon, which triggered the moot.


ARYA:
"There must be treasure chambers too, Arya decided. She pictured stacks of golden plates, bags of silver coins, sapphires blue as the sea. One day the kindly man came on her unexpectedly and asked what she was doing. She told him that she had gotten lost."
“You lie. Worse, you lie poorly. Who are you?”
“No one.”
“Another lie.” He sighed.
Here, Arya tries to deceive the Kindly Man about being 'no one'. Arya is secretly 'holding onto herself' by hiding Needle.


ROBIN:
"The little lord wore sky-blue velvet, a chain of gold and sapphires, and a white bearskin cloak. His squires each held an end, to keep the cloak from dragging on the floor."
Earlier in the chapter Sansa instructs the maester to give Robert sweet sleep rather than giving him milk of the poppy and tying him to mule during the descent. Several times she either mentions or thinks how important it is that he appear to be a strong lord. No one can know how sickly he really is. Once he's dressed and ready to go he shows up wearing sapphires. So the secret is concealing his ill health, and this is the only time he wears the necklace.


A Dance With Dragons

ILLYRIO:
"Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger’s eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I’d need a cleaver to claim them."
This is Tyrion with Illryio. At this point, Illyrio's plans for fAegon and the Golden company are under way, and he keeps the secret from Tyrion. Notice the rings next to the sapphire, GREEN BLACK GREEN BLACK GREEN (dance of the dragons).


ILLYRIO:
"He taught them to read as well. We left the gold and gems for common thieves. Instead our mice stole letters, ledgers, charts ... later, they would read them and leave them where they lay. Secrets are worth more than silver or sapphires, Varys claimed."
The secret with Illyrio seems to be not just about fAegon, but also underlining how long the Illyrio-Varys Blackfyre partnership has been going on. There's probably more to his story than he's conveying. Also, secrets (fAegon) are worth more than silver (Dany) to Illyrio.


BOWEN MARSH:
"As they passed, ... all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt"
Bowen Marsh is collecting a sapphire hilted sword from wildlings entering through the wall. This is after Bowen had shown his anger at Leathers being made master-of-arms, so his desire/plan to kill Jon is the secret here. The sword is the Night's Watch (sword in the darkness) and the 'broken' could be related to the perception that Jon breaks his vows.

25 sapphires. 25 secrets relevant to their particular scene.


Misc.

Shiera Seastar wore an exquisite sapphire necklace. If S+B=M is correct, her secret might be that she had a daughter - Melony/Melisandre.

Thanks to The Dornishman's Wife for a 'lil help. ;)

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JOFFREY:

"She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate. He wore a deep blue doublet studded with a double row of golden lion’s heads, and around his brow a slim coronet made of gold and sapphires. His hair was as bright as the metal."

Joffrey wearing sapphires points at his unknowing secret concerning his true parentage. Notice the word 'sapphire' is used between the words 'gold' and 'his hair'. His golden Lannister hair was the clue that led to Ned finally realising who's child he was. Joff is also being deceptively nice to Sansa in this scene, hiding his true self.

Excellent thread, y'all! With more of the 'code' threads, it becomes harder to deny that all of these bits are intentional.

This one above is interesting as it's also relevant to Maggy the Frog's prophecy to Cersei.

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds."

It's often taken that this means that each three kids will become king or queen, but the hair is connected here with the golden of the crown. Their hair is literally crowns their head in gold.

Regarding the gem codes in general.

Rubies are most common and mean several things; Mel, fire, blood, House Targaryen. When associated with Lannisters - wealth.

With less common gems like Tiger's eye etc. (anything NOT ruby or sapphire), the meaning changes for each individual scene, there's no common theme. But there is still a one-off meaning. There's many gem catches yet to be caught.

I believe it was Teal'c who made a thread about Rubies being an allusion to deceit. The thread somehow got deleted during one of the many outages or forum updates. It was an excellent thread in any case. Perhaps someone can shoot him (or whoever made it, definitely a poster with a name that starts with T) a PM to see if he still has the draft of the OP.

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JAIME:

“Take the bloody sword and go, before I change my mind. There’s a bay mare in the stables, as homely as you are but somewhat better trained. Chase after Steelshanks, search for Sansa, or ride home to your isle of sapphires, it’s naught to me. I don’t want to look at you anymore.”

This secret could be Jaime hiding his true feelings about Brienne. We later learn he has a fondness for her, and here he's claiming the opposite.

My take was that: it's not naught to Jaime. He does care about the oath he swore to Lady Catelyn.

GERION: UNSOLVED

“The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords."

This quote links Gerion to a secret. (?) Maybe impossible to known at the moment.

I was thinking this might have to do with Gerion's fate; it's unknown.

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Nice work, I never conciously registered any gems except rubies.

ILLYRIO:

"His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes"

This is Illyrio, during his clandestine conversation with Varys. The secret here is fAegon, who they are both planning to see onto the throne. Notice the ruby (associated with House Targaryen) is next to the sapphire - a nod to the fake Targaryen deceit. Illyrio's rings might show the main characters he meets; red/gold=Tyrion, silver=Dany. The Illyrio-Varys partnership itself, is another secret.

And the third gem of this collection are - tiger eyes. The tigers are the party favoring military action in Volantis. Could be that Illyrio has a certain influence there. Or maybe it's an indication of the military goals hidden behind the economic power, both in Volantis and Illyrio as a person.

GERION: UNSOLVED

“The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords."

This quote links Gerion to a secret. (?) Maybe impossible to known at the moment.

I consider that rather obvious. It's a sapphire wedding gift from a Lannister. Robert's and Cersei's marriage certainly had their share of secrets, courtesy of the Lannisters.

MANCE: UNSOLVED

“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist."

Mance discusses his humble beginnings and then mentions sapphires. Is there more to Mance's past than we know about? Or is there something else?

"not (...) sapphires." In that entire collection, it's the only time that the sapphires are linked to "no". In my opinion, here Mance tells the truth. He (and Dalla) refuse secrets.

Or maybe Jon's the secret here, not Mance or Dalla.

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Nice work, I never conciously registered any gems except rubies.

And the third gem of this collection are - tiger eyes. The tigers are the party favoring military action in Volantis. Could be that Illyrio has a certain influence there. Or maybe it's an indication of the military goals hidden behind the economic power, both in Volantis and Illyrio as a person.

This was part of the analysis. I think Yolkboy must have accidentally omitted it.

I consider that rather obvious. It's a sapphire wedding gift from a Lannister. Robert's and Cersei's marriage certainly had their share of secrets, courtesy of the Lannisters.

Though I suggested the question of Gerion's fate in the previous post, this is another obvious explanation.

"not (...) sapphires." In that entire collection, it's the only time that the sapphires are linked to "no". In my opinion, here Mance tells the truth. He (and Dalla) refuse secrets.

Or maybe Jon's the secret here, not Mance or Dalla.

I was thinking along the same lines here.

---

ILLYRIO:

"Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger’s eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I’d need a cleaver to claim them."

This is Tyrion with Illryio. The jewels on his rings have changed. The sapphire is this time next to an amethyst. The purple of the amethyst links Illyrio to fAegon (eyes) and the Golden Company (Lysono Maar, their spymaster, is noted as having purple fingernails and amethyst earrings). At this point, Illyrio's plans for fAegon and the Golden company are under way, and he keeps the secret from Tyrion. Purple is also linked to Varys through the descriptions of him smelling of lavender, this partnership is another secret. The touramaline is unusual and might signify backing from the wealthy Quarthean 'Touramaline brotherhood'. The 'dancing' of Illyrio's fingers place him as a piano-player of the people his jewels represent, or a puppetmaster. The list of gems might be all the people/factions Illyrio is involved with/using in his Blackfyre scheme.

He has but to pull the strings and watch the puppets dance (war). :)

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This was part of the analysis. I think Yolkboy must have accidentally omitted it.

Yes JS did catch this, my bad. It was tricky to organise and i messed up. Sorry JS ;)

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Nice work, I never conciously registered any gems except rubies.

Thanks! Yeah there's something going on with these gems. If we could figure out Illyrio's rings, we'd probably know much more about him, his plans, and his allies.

I consider that rather obvious. It's a sapphire wedding gift from a Lannister. Robert's and Cersei's marriage certainly had their share of secrets, courtesy of the Lannisters.

You're probably right here. These puzzles are usually pretty obvious. I'll edit this into op and give you a nod if nobody thinks of anything else.

"not (...) sapphires." In that entire collection, it's the only time that the sapphires are linked to "no". In my opinion, here Mance tells the truth. He (and Dalla) refuse secrets.

Or maybe Jon's the secret here, not Mance or Dalla.

Yeah, there's no precedent for negative sapphires, so it's difficult to tell. You might well be right.

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MANCE: UNSOLVED

“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist."

Mance discusses his humble beginnings and then mentions sapphires. Is there more to Mance's past than we know about? Or is there something else?

So, in this one, Mance is bringing up a specific lack of sapphires. He's talking to Jon, and appealing to a lack of luxury goods as a way of showing that he's a king without pretense. He's selling his authenticity, and to sell this fiction (if you believe there's more to Mance) then the appeal to a lack of sapphires can be read as an appeal to his veracity and non-duplicity.

But I suspect that Mance is not completely truthful here-- at least, I think there is a fiction he's been spinning. I've found it rather off that everything Mance does that we see is essentially an extension of NW business when you think of it. Back in aGoT, Osha tells Bran that Mance was planning to fight the Others himself, with the wildlings, which is the exact job the NW is supposed to do. I developed this thought a bit more in the Jon reread here, but it's admittedly very speculative. This where I see Mance's potential duplicity-- that's he's taking on the wildling trappings of power for a different purpose than he claims.

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Ah, very nice stuff. The combined weight of almost 30 instances of evidence is hard to ignore when it's laid out so excellently.

About the Mance question I believe it makes perfect sense that Mance's statement about "no sapphires" should be seen as an insistence for authenticity - and thus it fits in very nicely with the sapphire=secret theme.

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Great post as always! I agree with Bright Blue Eyes my first thought on the GERION example was the secrets in Robert and Cercei's marriage. Although i do still hope Gerion shows up down the road.

ILLYRIO:

"Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger’s eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I’d need a cleaver to claim them."

This is Tyrion with Illryio. The jewels on his rings have changed. The sapphire is this time next to an amethyst. The purple of the amethyst links Illyrio to fAegon (eyes) and the Golden Company (Lysono Maar, their spymaster, is noted as having purple fingernails and amethyst earrings). At this point, Illyrio's plans for fAegon and the Golden company are under way, and he keeps the secret from Tyrion. Purple is also linked to Varys through the descriptions of him smelling of lavender, this partnership is another secret. The touramaline is unusual and might signify backing from the wealthy Quarthean 'Touramaline brotherhood'. The 'dancing' of Illyrio's fingers place him as a piano-player of the people his jewels represent, or a puppetmaster. The list of gems might be all the people/factions Illyrio is involved with/using in his Blackfyre scheme.

also following the sapphire ring you have emerald, jet, jade, a black diamond and a green pearl Perhaps more Dance of the Dragons 2 foreshadowing?

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It's an interesting notion, but to play devil's advocate here, don't most characters in the series have a secret or two? I can't think of a single major or semi-major character that doesn't. The sapphires might be simply a coincidence.

But I do appreciate all of the hard work you did to find the examples, it is interesting if it were intended, however, I'm not totally convinced. Secrets in A Song of Ice and Fire are as ubiquitous as swords - all the important characters have one.

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It's an interesting notion, but to play devil's advocate here, don't most characters in the series have a secret or two? I can't think of a single major or semi-major character that doesn't. The sapphires might be simply a coincidence.

But I do appreciate all of the hard work you did to find the examples, it is interesting if it were intended, however, I'm not totally convinced. Secrets in A Song of Ice and Fire are as ubiquitous as swords - all the important characters have one.

The sapphire secrets are always relevant to that particular scene. Lot's of characters have secrets, but when a sapphire shows up, their secret is relevant to what's going on at the point in time.

eg. Sansa dreams of Loras in Sapphires when she's thinking about marrying him. The secret that he's gay is pertinent to that moment.

ETA I Hope it's clear this is EVERY Sapphire mention covered in the series.

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The sapphire secrets are always relevant to that particular scene. Lot's of characters have secrets, but when a sapphire shows up, their secret is relevant to what's going on at the point in time.

eg. Sansa dreams of Loras in Sapphires when she's thinking about marrying him. The secret that he's gay is pertinent to that moment.

I will agree that some examples are as you suggest, however many of these "secrets" are purely speculation. I think once many of these mysteries about the characters are unraveled in future books, the truth of this hypothesis will be proven or disproved, but too many are either vague or conjecture for me to be totally convinced.

Unfortunately, if even one example is wrong, the entire code falls apart. It's got to be all or nothing. Any random inclusion of sapphires would ruin the entire theory unless it was forced to fit with guesses and assumptions.

I'll try to keep an open mind until we know for sure.

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Well the problem I have with this thread is, that basically every single charactr mentioned in the books has at least one secret.

You just connect sapphires to random secrets, which almost every character has plenty off.

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I will agree that some examples are as you suggest, however many of these "secrets" are purely speculation. I think once many of these mysteries about the characters are unraveled in future books, the truth of this hypothesis will be proven or disproved, but too many are either vague or conjecture for me to be totally convinced.

Unfortunately, if even one example is wrong, the entire code falls apart. It's got to be all or nothing. Any random inclusion of sapphires would ruin the entire theory unless it was forced to fit with guesses and assumptions.

I'll try to keep an open mind until we know for sure.

Well, with regards to the conjecture secrets that cant be proven because they havent happened yet. Take a look at all the examples of the secrets we do know of to be 100% true. They all fit the pattern, without exception, as far as I can tell. There's a point where so many of the dots are joined, the others join themselves.

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Well the problem I have with this thread is, that basically every single charactr mentioned in the books has at least one secret.

You just connect sapphires to random secrets, which almost every character has plenty off.

To repeat myself:

The sapphire secrets are always relevant to that particular scene. Lot's of characters have secrets, but when a sapphire shows up, their secret is relevant to what's going on at the point in time.

eg. Sansa dreams of Loras in Sapphires when she's thinking about marrying him. The secret that he's gay is pertinent to that moment.

They are NOT "random secrets", I really don't understand your problem. The simple rule of this pattern was laid out in the first line of the OP.

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The sapphire secrets are always relevant to that particular scene. Lot's of characters have secrets, but when a sapphire shows up, their secret is relevant to what's going on at the point in time.

eg. Sansa dreams of Loras in Sapphires when she's thinking about marrying him. The secret that he's gay is pertinent to that moment.

ETA I Hope it's clear this is EVERY Sapphire mention covered in the series.

But not all the secrets are relevant to that particular scene. Of the examples you've listed above, Lysa, Joffrey and Euron simply reference long standing secrets that the characters have.

Then there's the ones that just don't really work. The ones featuring Symeon, Dagmer and Mance don't really fit with the pattern.

It's very interesting, but by no means concrete evidence.

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But not all the secrets are relevant to that particular scene. Of the examples you've listed above, Lysa, Joffrey and Euron simply reference long standing secrets that the characters have.

Lysa. She's courting potential husbands at the time. She is doing so because she murdered her last husband.

Euron. He's wanting to win the King's moot at the time. The King's moot is only happening because he proxy murdered Balon.

Joffrey is playing nice at the time. Sansa is forming an opinion of him based on his 'act' at the time.

How are these not relevant to the particular scene exactly???

You say Symeon, Dagmer and Mance "don't really work", but neglect to say why, so I can't answer you. Symeon and Mance were tough ones fwiw, but Butterbumps! gave two angles in her post

I will say we might not have got all the catches correct, there where 26, so any feedback on improved interpretations would be welcome.

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Lysa. She's courting potential husbands at the time. She is doing so because she murdered her last husband.

Euron. He's wanting to win the King's moot at the time. The King's moot is only happening because he proxy murdered Balon.

Joffrey is playing nice at the time. Sansa is forming an opinion of him based on his 'act' at the time.

How are these not relevant to the particular scene exactly???

You say Symeon, Dagmer and Mance "don't really work", but neglect to say why, so I can't answer you.

I will say we might not have got all the catches correct, there where 30, so any feedback on improved interpretations would be welcome.

Fair enough that's a pretty good explanation.

With Symeon, Dagmar and Mance, I just don't see what the secret is.

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